From: the_dojang-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com To: the_dojang-digest@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Subject: The_Dojang-Digest V8 #292 Reply-To: the_dojang@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Errors-To: the_dojang-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Precedence: The_Dojang-Digest Sun, 13 May 2001 Vol 08 : Num 292 In this issue: the_dojang: BJJ/Catch Generalities the_dojang: BJJ Stuff vs. BJ Stuff the_dojang: Re: The_Dojang-Digest V8 #291 the_dojang: Self-Defense versus Goliath [none] the_dojang: the_dojang: . ========================================================================= The_Dojang, serving the Internet since June 1994. ~1111 members strong! Copyright 1994-2001: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource The premier internet discussion forum devoted to the Korean Martial Arts. Replying to this message will NOT unsubscribe you. To unsubscribe, send "unsubscribe the_dojang-digest" (no quotes) in the body (top line, left justified) of a "plain text" e-mail addressed to majordomo@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com. To send e-mail to this list use the_dojang@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com See the Korean Martial Arts (KMA) FAQ and the online search engine for back issues of The_Dojang at http://www.MartialArtsResource.com Pil Seung! ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Lorne Keatley Date: Sat, 12 May 2001 01:28:32 -0700 Subject: the_dojang: BJJ/Catch Generalities John, I am sorry if I got you heated under the collar. I am speaking in generalities when comparing the BJJ and Catch-as-catch-can. The submissions from catch are numerous, but most of them are when there is a leverage advantage for the wrestler. I believe the main reason is to limit mobility. BJJ, as far as i know and I admit I am not an expert, seem to have moves for all positions on the ground. Probably a good idea come to think of it. That is where I drew my conclusion from. Observation and formulation of a hypothesis according to the ol' scientific method. Of course exceptions make the rule. If you can provide evidence to the contrary to my conclusion, great. Means I'll learn something. Otherwise, I have my opinion and you have yours. As to being skeptical about Catch, I am also not sold on anything until I see the goods. I am also not afraid to look at something objectively, and if it has something to offer, I will take advantage of it. However, I would not attack anything until I have seen it for myself. Makes life more interesting and more harmonious that way I believe. Lorne ------------------------------ From: Ken McDonough Date: Sat, 12 May 2001 07:12:52 -0700 (PDT) Subject: the_dojang: BJJ Stuff vs. BJ Stuff I ain't gonna get mixed up in the BJJ stuff. However, can recommend several good tape series, i.e., Pedro Carvalho, Walt Bayless, Roy Harris, Mario Sperry. All good video series to help improve your ground game as a supplement to your Hapkido, and TKD stuff. Now I would like to chat about Wrestlers (I loved Argentina Apollo, Haystacks Calhoun, and Bo Bo Brazil="when wrestling was a real game"), but I gotta go pick up the 1967 Chevelle Super Sport with 396/350 horsepower.Its got the Muncie 4 speed with Hurst Shifter. See ya on the highways and back streets. Meet me over at Broadway and Jones Street. 11 pm is the start of the drag races. And, I got the pink slip, Daddy ! McD... P.S. If your driving, don't drink. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Auctions - buy the things you want at great prices http://auctions.yahoo.com/ ------------------------------ From: FGS & KVF Date: Sat, 12 May 2001 07:24:56 -0700 Subject: the_dojang: Re: The_Dojang-Digest V8 #291 > From: Ray Terry > Date: Fri, 11 May 2001 21:17:53 PDT > Subject: the_dojang: world class athletes > > I think of just two people; one was Billy Ezzo, the other was Doug France. > Doug "Bubba" France was a good friend, 6'6" and a lean 270 lbs as a college > freshman and eventually an All-Pro offensive tackle for the Rams (then in LA). > Billy held the US record in the 60 yard dash (indoor track). Doug was big, > stong, and fast. Billy was little and VERY quick. When I practice a take > down or a limb destruction I consider if it would work on these two guys. > One so big and strong it seemed he could pop your head like a grape, > using only one hand. The other so quick and fast and springs so tight that > at only 5'5" or so he could easily dunk a B-ball (but he had to use two hands > because his hands were too small to hold it in only one). > > If you can make your techniques work against a "Jason" like one of these > guys, you're getting close... Only a few more years to go... :) That is something that makes me think about my ability to defend myself with my MA skills. I was watching the Lakers last nite and Shaq is so big, and I thot "whatever I hit on him, he's going to brush it off and kick my butt". I mean let's face it, I weigh in the 120s, and he? yow! So, I often wonder what I would do against an attacker with such a height and weight advantage. Even his knee joints look unbreakably large. :-) I originally went into MA for self-defense, but after 3 years, I think I am just trying to get my skills, and balance to "just OK". Self-defense seems to be something that I either take a specific course for, or hope not to need for 10 years until my skill level is high enuff to use. Altho, that might be too short of time for Shaq's body build. Spunky _________________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com ------------------------------ From: "Anthony or Clare Boyd" Date: Sat, 12 May 2001 19:44:07 +0900 Subject: the_dojang: Self-Defense versus Goliath I tend to view self-defense from the position that everyone is bigger than I am because my clothes weigh more than I do, dry or wet. When I see some of the giants nature has produced I quickly shift my view point from Self-Defense to someting closer to Offense. I have to wonder if, even with perfect technique, pain compliance and joint manipulation can really help you in cases of such gross disparity in size. Maybe they can but at my current level of training I can't picture it yet. Of course my primary art is the sword. That puts a whole different spin on things but even here where I am most confident I have to consider size. Size matters. It is incrementally harder to cut larger and larger objects. The larger the object the more effort required and the more time it takes. It'd be much easier for a Football Tank to pull off one of my arms than it'd be for me to lop off one of his. Good thing I know how to thrust, no? Hopefully by now someone is asking what the hell my point is... Swords? No. Not swords. My point is that size differences are just another thing (obstacle) that shapes the tactics we choose in a self-defense situation. It is necessary to recognize the limitations of each tactic in your arsenal and have the foresight to prepare yourself for different situations. I agree that the idea of "who can whup whom" is an interesting morsel of _seeming_ juvenalia that we should discuss. *If* you are training for self-defense but you are not taking the time to assess the value of each technique for affecting each body type and each level of conditioning then *what* exactly do you expect to be prepared for? An ambush by a Martial Arts Demonstration? So, if an average sized martial artist is attacked by a behemoth in awesome shape with a high degree of pain tolerance, what would be useful tactics other than the 180 degree turn and sprint? Got Sword? http://welcome.to/haidonggumdo ------------------------------ From: Neal Konecky Date: Sat, 12 May 2001 18:24:39 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [none] Neal Konecky ===== "Our government, conceived in freedom and purchased with blood, can be preserved only by constant vigilance" William Jennings Bryan __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Auctions - buy the things you want at great prices http://auctions.yahoo.com/ ------------------------------ From: "Rudy Timmerman" Date: Sun, 13 May 2001 04:38:55 -0400 Subject: the_dojang: John writes: > What people call "catch-as-catch-can" is a made-up style that was adapted > from professional wrestling moves. It is not based on sound competative or > real-world trial and error. Hi John: The first martial art I ever learned (back in 1950) was called "Catch as Catch Can". The teacher, who was a hand to hand combat Intructor for the police force in The Hague, Holland, never trained in professional wrestling; however, he did have a background in Jiu Jitsu. Come to think of it, at that time we never heard of professional wrestling in Holland (No TV then). All the wrestling I ever remember hearing about was Roman Greco. The Catch as Catch Can classes were not formal, and there was no ranking system in the little gym we trained at. It seemed like the Instructor simply loved to share some of his knowledge with a few neighbourhood kids. As far as martial arts were concerned, Judo was the big thing going on in Holland at that time (remember Geesingk and Ruska). As far as competition, there was never any mention of it in the gym. In fact, I don't know if there were other such gyms around to compete with. As far as real trial and error is concerned. The art was every bit as devastating as any I have trained in since, and I remember it as being downright brutal. Somebody surely must have tried it in the real world. Ofcourse, I have no idea if this is the same thing people talk about today. I had not heard anything about it since I left Holland in 1958. Sincerely, Rudy ------------------------------ From: Ray Terry Date: Sun, 13 May 2001 7:44:10 PDT Subject: the_dojang: . ------------------------------ End of The_Dojang-Digest V8 #292 ******************************** It's a great day for Taekwondo! 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