From: the_dojang-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com To: the_dojang-digest@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Subject: The_Dojang-Digest V8 #304 Reply-To: the_dojang@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Errors-To: the_dojang-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Precedence: The_Dojang-Digest Fri, 18 May 2001 Vol 08 : Num 304 In this issue: the_dojang: Tang Soo Do Links the_dojang: Re: Kendo/children the_dojang: TaeGukKwan: Korean Tai-Chi the_dojang: Solo forms...still relevant? the_dojang: Re: Solo forms...still relevant? the_dojang: Re: The_Dojang-Digest V8 #302 the_dojang: Caught kicks the_dojang: Forms Rating the_dojang: RE: Book Opinion the_dojang: Training with the 2 Best the_dojang: Mst. Hackney the_dojang: . ========================================================================= The_Dojang, serving the Internet since June 1994. ~1111 members strong! Copyright 1994-2001: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource The premier internet discussion forum devoted to the Korean Martial Arts. Replying to this message will NOT unsubscribe you. To unsubscribe, send "unsubscribe the_dojang-digest" (no quotes) in the body (top line, left justified) of a "plain text" e-mail addressed to majordomo@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com. To send e-mail to this list use the_dojang@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com See the Korean Martial Arts (KMA) FAQ and the online search engine for back issues of The_Dojang at http://www.MartialArtsResource.com Pil Seung! ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Bernard G Redfield Date: Thu, 17 May 2001 21:20:05 -0400 Subject: the_dojang: Tang Soo Do Links <<>>>> Thanks for the kind words : ) I would love a new url to post for your org. Anyone out there in TSD land who would like a link added to my site just send me the url and I will add you next update Tang Soo!! ------------------------------ From: MJD99AB@aol.com Date: Thu, 17 May 2001 21:27:07 EDT Subject: the_dojang: Re: Kendo/children In a message dated 5/17/01 2:43:27 PM US Eastern Standard Time, the_dojang-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com writes: << Unless that child is absolutely adamant and would be willing to submit to traditional training, I would send him to a TKD studio where things could be kept on a simple quide pro quo (read also "kicks for cash") basis. >> Thanks Bruce...I think you are right...he is probably in that ninja turtle phase....there is probably a TKD school in Crown Point. Thanks, Mark ------------------------------ From: "hackworth" Date: Thu, 17 May 2001 21:36:29 -0400 Subject: the_dojang: TaeGukKwan: Korean Tai-Chi Bruce wrote: "BTW: Richard, were you ever able to identify a particular heritage of Tai > Chi Chuan for which the style that was presented at the seminar you > mentioned is derived? Were the movements from a select style or a > representative cross-section of movements from a selection of styles?" Seok Kyu Lee said that the system he learned is from Yang Style. Richard Hackworth http://ma_success.tripod.com KHF Impersonators Rick Nabors wrote: "Hey, wait a minute. You have left out Sin Moo Hapkido, Combat Hapkido, and > all other Hapkido organizations. Why not just call everyone else in the > world losers all at once. This will eliminate the need to regurgitate > yourself in the future." If they have been selling KHF videos as their own material I will be glad to add them to the list. Thanks for the suggestion. Richard Hackworth http://khfhapkido.tripod.com ------------------------------ From: "K T" Date: Fri, 18 May 2001 16:09:26 +1000 Subject: the_dojang: Solo forms...still relevant? Mr Stovall I'll answer your question from the lowly aspect of a plebian tae kwon do practioner; At the risk of raising the spectre of those since past, aren't forms part of the "BASICS". From a newby perspective I'm not sure I'd really understand the difference between a low block, high block, inner block, outer block etc, etc block unless I had had the benefit of working my way through the various forms that I was taught. From the beginners perspective I think forms put a name to a position or tactic and gives fluency and continuity from one type of movement / position to the next. What would be the alternative to forms? I apologise in advance for any perceived naivety in my answer. Regards, Noel Doney _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. ------------------------------ From: Creed71963@aol.com Date: Fri, 18 May 2001 02:22:13 EDT Subject: the_dojang: Re: Solo forms...still relevant? >>From: "Craig Stovall" Date: Thu, 17 May 2001 15:09:50 -0500 Subject: the_dojang: Solo forms...still relevant? Here's one for discussion... I'm wondering about people's opinions as to the relevancy of solo forms practice in today's modern world. In particular, do solo forms still deserve a prominent place in the modern martial artist's toolbox? For simplicity (and I may record the results if we get enough responses), let's use a simple grading scale of 1 to 10. The spectrum would look something like this: 1 = "Forms are no longer relevant, they have been supplanted by more efficient and effective training methods". 10 = "Forms are the cornerstone of martial arts training...they can't be replaced and are still relevant". A 5 would indicate indifference..."forms are useful but not all-important". OK, so that's the grading scale. Give a number to indicate your position, and then give a brief (or long) summary to back your position. A few caveats: 1. People train for different purposes, and this in itself makes the question of "kata's" relevancy very complex. For simplicity, answer the question as forms pertain to making a "fighter"...in other words the usefulness (or uselessness) of forms in helping create a person that is capable of engaging in single combat. Of course, consider this on all three levels...physical, mental, and spiritual. 2. Without exception, someone will chime in and say, "Craig, how DARE you question the relevancy of forms? Are you mad? Blasphemer!!!" Please, keep in mind there are just as many people that believe forms practice is hogwash (in sculpting a fighter) as there are those that swear by them. I'm interested in personal experience...not reprocessed dogmatic belief, "Sa Bu Nim says", and all that good rot. What do YOU really think?...don't give me XYZ Association's party line cuz I've "been there, done that". I look forward to the responses. I'll give my opinion on this in a subsequent post. Craig "Yeah, but I'm a damned SEXY troll" Stovall<< IMHO, a 9. Forms should be used as a teaching/meditating/visualzation tool. Why do I say that? 1) Teaching -- Techniques and combinations are found in forms that aren't taught in a regular class session. A prime example are the "Iron Horse" forms that we learned at redbelt level. They are based on power and fighting in a cramped space (A large number of opponents, or as I like to describe it, "Fighting in an elevator") Every movement is a strike or a block, the techniques are delivered in almost every different direction, all designed with an opponet on top of you. The stepping are sweeps, then become stomps. Mind you, a group of thugs are not going to come at you in the order they do in the forms, but a short series from the forms can have the desired effect. 2) Meditation -- Doing forms is a form of meditation. The student must focus on the correct order of moves, maintaining balance, & putting speed and power into the techniques. Do you see a Forms competitor look anything but focused on his form? No. When someone is in a fight for real, survival goes to the fighter who is more focused on his fight. Forms are a perfect way to form that concentration that doesn't involved getting anyone else killed or hurt for real. In advanced forms, part of the student's process is the generation and focusing of Ki through the form's techniques. 3) Visualization -- This is part of focus I mentioned above, but if the student can see in his mind's eye the attack, the effect of the block and the counter strike, if it was to happen for real, there is no hesitation in the movements. It also helps the student understand when and where a technique should be used. Forms (or Hyungs) have their place. The problem is that everyone has their own set of forms, and some are not well thought out or designed. That's all for now.... Another Craig ------------------------------ From: Creed71963@aol.com Date: Fri, 18 May 2001 02:35:55 EDT Subject: the_dojang: Re: The_Dojang-Digest V8 #302 In a message dated 05/17/2001 3:16:45 PM EST, the_dojang-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com writes: << >>>I think your techniques used against a "monolith" would work good >>>if you had the right "mindset" and were thinking tactically when >>>you picked the right targets to use them against. Are you kicks >>>strong enough to surprise, hurt or disable if you fired them >>>against his knee, groin, floating ribs, zyphoid process (top of >>>abdomen over diaphram) or temple? Part of a ggod defense or use >>>of your skill is sound planning and picking of the areas that >>>would help make up for your lack of size or strength... Just my >>>.02 cents....<<< >> A lot depends on the situation. If you're 5'6" and your opponent is 6'5", then jump kicks are probably not a good idea.... Still, kicks at the knees would be a good start -- the knees joints are not strong, and even if your strike isn't solidly on target, you can slow them up. Hard stomps on the foot might be something to look at. If I'm fighting someone taller then me, I wouldn't bother with kicks above the waist unless I want to surprise him, or set up a low strike by feinting a high kick. Throws, strikes at the elbow joints, groin shots, & sweeps are other options. There are so many factors that have to be considered when laying out a strategy: no two fights are ever going to be the same Of course, if my opponent was the size of the Undertaker, I would look for the nearest 2X4 and see if I could take him out with one blow. If not, I would learn to either set a world's record in the Mile, or learn to climb walls without ropes REAL quick....^_^ Craig ------------------------------ From: SungPaeKi@aol.com Date: Fri, 18 May 2001 06:43:50 EDT Subject: the_dojang: Caught kicks Sarah Pride writes <> A couple things I want to say. First of all I know you're not completly serious when you are fighting your sister so your kicks are not going to have the same effect with control (as you said goofing around); ie if you kick someone and brake their ribs or knock them out, if they catch your leg they're not going to hold on to your leg for long if at all. Next if someone catches your leg you are not defenseless, use your mind and start training for stuff like that, if its not taught in your school figure something out that works for you. And the comment about kicks not being practical, well from your comments I can tell you don't know what targets to strike, or maybe you don't know how to truly generate power. For all the Martial Artists out there that think that you can just kick someone anywhere on the body without a specific target and with the instep of the foot and be truly effective, you are sadly mistaken. Traditional Tae kwon do kicks were meant to destroy and kill ! with one move. You watch to man y movies if you think a fight should last 20 kicks and punches to the head and body. Just one, maybe five just to be sure. I appoligize Sarah if you think I am attacking you I don't know anything about you, this is actually more directed to Martial artists I have met throughout my carreer. The 2 rules to fighting are: 1. Always Cheat 2. Always Win Joshua Cather 2nd Dan Tae kwon do 1st Dan Hapkido SungPaeKi@aol.com ------------------------------ From: SungPaeKi@aol.com Date: Fri, 18 May 2001 06:55:16 EDT Subject: the_dojang: Forms Rating Well I think I would rate forms as a 7 maybe. I'm not really sure. Let me tell you why. I don't think forms are good for learning self defense strategy or combinations, but I do think forms are good for a type of meditation. Once you practice them so much and you know them, you stop thinking about what your doing. I believe you need this to some degree in a fight, or self-defense situation. As long as the forms that you practice are fluid, they provide a wide range of techniques, and work both sides of the body equally. I would venture to say that I would not be where I am today without forms. When I was in the Marines I practiced them constantly, because I had no one at the time to train with. It helped me keep my technique. I would never say that someone would actually need forms to be an effective Martial Artist but it can't hurt. The 2 rules to fighting are: 1. Always Cheat 2. Always Win Joshua Cather 2nd Dan Tae kwon do 1st Dan Hapkido SungPaeKi@aol.com ------------------------------ From: Bruce.Sims@med.va.gov Date: Fri, 18 May 2001 08:06:28 -0500 Subject: the_dojang: RE: Book Opinion Dear David: "... Anyone seen them? How bad should I feel?..." Feel bad for the other guy, David, he's the one that wasted his money. I have both of those books and the material is superficial, limited and redundant to a fault. Between the two slim, hard cover books I doubt there was anymore than a spattering of worthwhile information. The photography angles were poor (as was the photography itself), the description of the techniques average, and the techniques themselves seem to reflect only a mechanical understanding of the art. Its the same complaint that I have with M. Choes' books except that M Choe had better photography and larger format. Well, thats MY opinion, anyhow. Best Wishes, Bruce ------------------------------ From: Ken McDonough Date: Fri, 18 May 2001 05:22:53 -0700 (PDT) Subject: the_dojang: Training with the 2 Best The issue of training with the best, re: <"...and if you could train with anybody on the planet (living or dead) who would it be (and why)?.." > a. Vito Scaglioni= a relatively unknown guy from Ozone Park, NY. Started the Woodlawn Hunt and Fish Club in the middle of an urban oasis in Howard Beach, Queens, NY. This guy knew more about weapons and urban survival than any Korean Master wanna be. An expert at hiding knives and guns in large olive oil jars. Passed through Airport security with ease. Taught me valuable lessons on sizing up wise guys. Note: not "made" wise guys if you know what I mean. Those guys you did not mess with. b. Frank "Hotdog" McClellan= an old Irish guy from Hells Kitchen, NYC. An expert is use of hitting without leaving scars, breaking knee caps, and everyday weapons, re: bats, brass knuckles, and sardine can lids. He also had this trick with thumb tacks. These are the kind of guys you want with you a a cold, dreary New York City night when bar hopping on St. Mark's place. I may have liked to watch Sammy "The Bull's" work. But, I heard he is currently in Arizona and I never met the man. McD... __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Auctions - buy the things you want at great prices http://auctions.yahoo.com/ ------------------------------ From: J T Date: Fri, 18 May 2001 06:18:46 -0700 (PDT) Subject: the_dojang: Mst. Hackney Mst. Hackney, It seems like everytime I read a post from you, you have a new website at the bottom of your name. Is there any particular reason for this, or are you just trying to promote different martial art websites? Nothing wrong with it, mind you, I just thought it interesting. Jeremy http://www.geocities.com/jns1994/MAS.html http://www.geocities.com/koreankumdo/index.html http://www.homestead.com/koreanma/index.html :) __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Auctions - buy the things you want at great prices http://auctions.yahoo.com/ ------------------------------ From: Ray Terry Date: Fri, 18 May 2001 6:50:44 PDT Subject: the_dojang: . ------------------------------ End of The_Dojang-Digest V8 #304 ******************************** It's a great day for Taekwondo! Support the USTU by joining today. US Taekwondo Union, 1 Olympic Plaza, Ste 104C, Colorado Spgs, CO 80909 719-578-4632 FAX 719-578-4642 ustutkd1@aol.com http://www.ustu.org To unsubscribe from the_dojang-digest send the command: unsubscribe the_dojang-digest -or- unsubscribe the_dojang-digest your.old@address in the BODY (top line, left justified) of a "plain text" e-mail addressed to majordomo@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com. Old digest issues are available via ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com. Copyright 1994-2001: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource Standard disclaimers apply.