From: the_dojang-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com To: the_dojang-digest@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Subject: The_Dojang-Digest V8 #305 Reply-To: the_dojang@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Errors-To: the_dojang-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Precedence: The_Dojang-Digest Fri, 18 May 2001 Vol 08 : Num 305 In this issue: the_dojang: RE:Goofing Around the_dojang: RE: KHF Impersonators the_dojang: RE: Korean Tai Chi the_dojang: Solo forms...still relevant? the_dojang: RE: Koreans the_dojang: Re: The_Dojang-Digest V8 #304 the_dojang: Re: Caught kicks the_dojang: FW: Korean Tai Chi the_dojang: Teacher choices the_dojang: Forms and Fighters and Kicking the_dojang: about forms the_dojang: Hapkido the_dojang: Bad link the_dojang: . ========================================================================= The_Dojang, serving the Internet since June 1994. ~1111 members strong! Copyright 1994-2001: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource The premier internet discussion forum devoted to the Korean Martial Arts. Replying to this message will NOT unsubscribe you. To unsubscribe, send "unsubscribe the_dojang-digest" (no quotes) in the body (top line, left justified) of a "plain text" e-mail addressed to majordomo@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com. To send e-mail to this list use the_dojang@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com See the Korean Martial Arts (KMA) FAQ and the online search engine for back issues of The_Dojang at http://www.MartialArtsResource.com Pil Seung! ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Bruce.Sims@med.va.gov Date: Fri, 18 May 2001 08:30:13 -0500 Subject: the_dojang: RE:Goofing Around Dear Sarah: "...."My sister and I goof around outside of class all the time, and it always ends up with someone grabbing someone else's foot. The grabbee then hops around, totally helpless...." With all due respect to your question, this really isn't a MA question. It stopped being a MA question when you led off with the disclaimer "...My sister and I goof around outside of class..." In this case if you act like a goof you get goofy results. I get the same thing from students who are challenged about the Hapkido they have begun to study and come to class to report that "this stuff didn't work". When I ask if they did the technique as they practiced in class they uniformly respond "no, of course not. I didn't want to hurt anybody." In Hapkido, despite the crap you see in the movies, kicks are low (waist and below), hard and goal oriented. If by some chance you happen to grab my leg the cost will be the loss of an eardrum, an eye, or the ability to use your airway. I can't speak for other Korean arts, or even other Hapkido instructors, but I don't teach Hapkido as a resource for parlor tricks or party games and it is the knowing that this art is used "for keeps" that helps me to refrain from using it at the drop of a hat. As far as your question about the situation you cited, apparently you are getting out of your training exactly what you are putting in. So whats the problem? Best Wishes, Bruce ------------------------------ From: "Michael Rowe (outlook)" Date: Fri, 18 May 2001 08:33:39 -0500 Subject: the_dojang: RE: KHF Impersonators < all other Hapkido organizations. Why not just call everyone else in the > world losers all at once. This will eliminate the need to regurgitate > yourself in the future." If they have been selling KHF videos as their own material I will be glad to add them to the list. Thanks for the suggestion.>> Well I can tell you the ICHF does not sell KHF videos as their own material. Kwan Jang Pellegrini sells his own videos which he has painstakingly produced on his own and a souvenir video of training with GM In Sun Seo. Michael Rowe ------------------------------ From: Bruce.Sims@med.va.gov Date: Fri, 18 May 2001 08:51:36 -0500 Subject: the_dojang: RE: Korean Tai Chi "...Seok Kyu Lee said that the system he learned is from Yang Style...." Thanks, Richard. Bruce ------------------------------ From: Richard Zaruba Date: Fri, 18 May 2001 08:58:29 -0500 Subject: the_dojang: Solo forms...still relevant? I'll toss in my two cents on this topic as well. On the rating scale you suggest I would give forms a 8.5 to the usefulness of forms. Forms will teach proper movement and biomechanics to a student, build relflexes, condition the legs and body, develop proper breathing patterns for endurance and power. There is a catch to the benefit of forms, the instructor must understand how these things are done and there pattern in the forms. These things can also be taught without forms as separate drills which can cause a greater amount of time to be spent and a steeper learning curve to be encountered. ____________________________________________________________________________ Richard Zaruba University of North Dakota School of Medicine and Health Sciences Department of Anatomy and Cell Biology 501 North Columbia Road P.O. Box 9037 Grand Forks, ND 58202-9037 Off: (701) 777-3952 Lab: (701) 777-2576 Fax: (701) 777-2477 ------------------------------ From: "Peter Kim" Date: Fri, 18 May 2001 09:59:49 -0400 Subject: the_dojang: RE: Koreans As a Korean, I guess I feel the need to defend other Koreans on the remark that was made earlier on this emailing list. Not all Koreans are same.. Like not all Japanese are same and not all Chinese or Americans are same. It is true and I have noticed spoiled adult Korean males acting like a jack ass number of times, but there are those who are not at all like stereo typical Koreans that was mentioned. The result of spoiled Koreans comes from parents who had hard time during the first half of last centry trying to give all they could to their children (specially male children). Like all cultures, Koreans were influenced by near by nations. And, some of the things that we find valuable, we change them to fit out need and make it ours. I'm sure most of you are aware of the fact Japanese are very found of tea, which was first brought into Japan from China. Most of Japanese potery making was taken from Korea also.. And number of other things. We Americans (yes, I'm American citizen) call hotdog American food, however, long before there was "hotdog", Germans were eating their bratwurst with bread and mustard, and krauts. We take what we like, and we make it ours.. Everyone does that. I wouldn't base what Americans are like on rednecks hanging around a biker bar.. So next time you need to point your finger at Koreans.. Please remember.. Not all Koreans are assholes. Thanks, Peter Kim ------------------------------ From: NRE98@aol.com Date: Fri, 18 May 2001 10:01:01 EDT Subject: the_dojang: Re: The_Dojang-Digest V8 #304 << Here's one for discussion... I'm wondering about people's opinions as to the relevancy of solo forms practice in today's modern world....>> From my own experience, in applying kata to fighting, I attribute most of my ability to react in fighting in an almost meditative state (without thinking) to my years of kata practice. Not to mention the physical strength, stamina, accuracy, technical detail, and speed derived from performing kata which translate directly into effective fighting. I know fighters who do not care to practice kata, and can't help but wonder what a little concentrated kata practice could do for their already awesome ability. They have the physical ability and are very confident, but they do not have the desire to discipline themselves in the practice of kata. Personally, I think that the martial arts encompasses the "complete package." To each his own. My score for kata: 10. Thank you, Nancy ------------------------------ From: Sarah Pride Date: Fri, 18 May 2001 13:49:49 -0500 Subject: the_dojang: Re: Caught kicks >>>I appoligize Sarah if you think I am attacking you I don't know >>>anything about you, this is actually more directed to Martial >>>artists I have met throughout my carreer.<<< I don't take offense that easily any more, which I suppose is a good thing. As all almost everyone on this list knows about anyone else is what that person posts to the list, it's quite easy to get an incorrect impression of somebody. I don't blame you, and I accept your apology. >>>if you kick someone and brake their ribs or knock them out, if >>>they catch your leg they're not going to hold on to your leg for >>>long if at all.<<< This originally led off of the David vs. Goliath path, so I was talking about myself vs. some really large person. BrEAk their ribs? Shyeah, a very remote possibility. Knock him out? Some guy a foot taller than me? Possibly, if he gave me time to stretch out first. So let's assume the guy has grabbed my foot, possibly pinned to his side with his arm (from roundhouse) or possibly held at the ankle in front (from side kick). Now, because of this, I wouldn't do a roundhouse, because if my imaginary attacker is big, he'll be stronger than my "little" sister. And that gal is strong, man! 5' 8" tall, overweight (built like a 5' x 1.5' block), but _really_ strong - - she scores on punches in tournaments, mostly, and you know how rare that is normally. When she pins my foot to her side and wraps her arm underneath my leg, I am stuck. Can't sit down, am at a bad angle to kick with the other foot, and can't reach her well to punch. So no high roundhouse in a real fight. Side kick to vital frontal areas, though, is good. Thanks to the useful post of Mr. Craig Stovall, I now have a better idea how to get out of a regular foot-grabbed position. >>>And the comment about kicks not being practical, well from your >>>comments I can tell you don't know what targets to strike, or >>>maybe you don't know how to truly generate power.<<< I'm not sure how you got _that_ from my original post, but if you say so. >>>You watch to many movies if you think a fight should last 20 kicks >>>and punches to the head and body. Just one, maybe five just to be >>>sure. <<< It's a relief to know that my movie-watching has not reached dangerous levels yet. Whew! We seem to have a different view of how this fight would work, however. My idea is, hurt him quickly so he can't run fast, then dash away. Your idea apparently is, knock him out, kick the unconscious body four more times to make _really_ sure he is unconscious, then leave. Whatever. Different strategies, different people. Yours might work for you, but I seriously doubt it would work for me. >>>1. Always Cheat >>>2. Always Win The "win" part strikes me. The type of fight I'm talking, I can't really picture having a "win" feeling. Guys, however, apparently have this weird macho brawl gene or something. I dunno - I just don't get into "who's better" fights, the type where you actually could get a "win" feeling. Why do I always get these types of responses? Weird. - -Sarah Pride- 3rd gup WTF TKD ------------------------------ From: Bruce.Sims@med.va.gov Date: Fri, 18 May 2001 09:12:48 -0500 Subject: the_dojang: FW: Korean Tai Chi > -----Original Message----- > From: Sims, Bruce W. NCHVAMC > Sent: Friday, May 18, 2001 8:52 AM > To: 'the_dojang@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com' > Subject: RE: Korean Tai Chi > > "...Seok Kyu Lee said that the system he learned is from Yang Style...." > > Thanks, Richard. > > ALSO: For those who share these interests there is a rather nice article > in the June issue of BLACK BELT Magazine (no, really!) on the recent > translation of the MUYE DOBO TONGJI by Kim. Thats the June 2001 issue, pgs > 83-88. > > Best Wishes, > > Bruce ------------------------------ From: cspiller@e3mil.com Date: Fri, 18 May 2001 07:58:12 -0700 Subject: the_dojang: Teacher choices "...and if you could train with anybody on the planet (living or dead) who would it be (and why)?.." For Taekwon-Do I would have to say that my number one choice would be General Choi. I love the Chang Hun tuls. However, I’d also love to be able to train on a normal basis again with my own instructor, Mr. Terry Batch, who is simply an awesome martial artist both in the physical techniques department as well as in the demonstrating and living the tenants department. (To wax nostalgic for a moment, I owe a debt to this man I can never repay for being such a wonderful instructor to me over the past 15 years. How can one repay someone who’s like a father? Wherever I go and under whomever I train I will always consider this man to have laid the foundation of my martial arts career.) I also have to join with Bruce Sims and Charles Richards regarding Musashi. I am not a kendo or kumdo practitioner, but if we’re talking hypothetically then WHY would you turn down an opportunity like this one? Besides, after reading the “Go Rin No Sho” five or six times I’d like to see if it would be easier to comprehend with an actual teacher ;). Regarding Chinese Martial Arts, I’d have to go with the now deceased Wong Hun Fun for Hung-Gar training. James Lau would be my first choice as an Eagle Claw Sifu. He’s the brother of the system’s Grandmaster, Lily Lau, and is absolutely phenomenal in action. He’s one shrimp that COULD probably take on a linebacker and win with no problem! For Praying Mantis I’d have to say Sifu Henry Chung and his father Sigung Ho yin Chung. The elder gentleman no longer teaches on a regular basis but is one of the best martial artists I have ever seen and is one of the senior praying mantis men in the world (besides having mastered both Eagle Claw and Wu style Tai Chi, and yes I mean MASTERED). His son is a great technician and has a real knack for demonstrating fighting applications of patterns that actually work. Hapkido? It would have to be Grandmaster Choi, Yong Sul. Aikido? My first choice would be Gozo Shioda. Taekwon, Chris "Every Experience of Beauty Points to Infinity" Hans Urs von Balthasar _______________________________________________________________ Get your Private, Anti-Spam, Free Email at http://e3mil.com Your Internet Home for Your Faith, Your Life, and Your World! ------------------------------ From: "Alagna, Steven M" Date: Fri, 18 May 2001 10:35:29 -0700 Subject: the_dojang: Forms and Fighters and Kicking >>I'm wondering about people's opinions as to the relevancy of solo forms practice in today's modern world. In particular, do solo forms still deserve a prominent place in the modern martial artist's toolbox? For simplicity (and I may record the results if we get enough responses), let's use a simple grading scale of 1 to 10. The spectrum would look something like this:>> Craig, When I read your 1st paragraph, I said of course, a 10 for the modern "marital artist's" toolbox, but when I read further down and you said "fighter", that changed my mind in a hurry. To make a pure fighter, I believe IMVHO, forms are useless. Do boxers do forms? Does the Olympic TKD team do forms to hone their fighting skills? Are there any sparring videos or sparring books out there that list forms to do to become a better fighter? Not that I have seen. If you want to become a better fighter, practice fighting, drill in footwork, kicking, punching, and counters in a way that's similar to fighting. Of course, you must learn how to block, punch, and kick, like any fighter, but the blocking, punching, and kicking is much different for real fighting. If you had great footwork, there's no need to block, just move. In real fighting, there's parry and slide, avoid and counter. If learning and practicing traditional blocks, punching and kicking would make a superior fighter, don't you think boxers or kickboxers would practice that? Also, are we talking about street fighting or competitive? I still don't think there is a difference. I love doing forms and practice them all the time because it's fun and challenges the mind. But, if I were going to train to be solely a fighter... I would drop forms immediately. In summary: Modern Martial Artist = 10 Modern Fighter = 1 I also wanted to comment on kicking in regards to your self-defense toolbox. I think we would all agree that kicking to the upper body or head is not practical for self-defense. But, a fast, powerful kick to the groin or knee is very useful. If someone threateningly (is that a word?) grabbed me, I would probably throw a kick to their groin with intent to maim and injure, with the intent to stop the attack at that moment. I've done it before in real fights and it works! When playing around with a spouse or sibling or friend, there is a lot of that foot catching going on, during play and sparring. Why? Because we are not kicking with intent to main and injure and stave off an attack. I have a hard time sparring with people I know and like. Practice kicking low, fast, and powerful. Do not pull your kicks, kick through with your whole body. Watch kick boxers and Muay Thai fighters kick. They don't use short wispy, snappy kicks. Well that's my $.02. Steven M. Alagna ------------------------------ From: Alan Jay Weiner Date: Fri, 18 May 2001 11:49:19 -0400 Subject: the_dojang: about forms I'm in a somewhat funny position (well, ironic; not ha-ha funny...) - I studied Kempo for 8 years, then stopped when my daughter was born. Always intended to go back, but one time-consuming thing led to another, and now it's eight years later and I'm just getting back to martial arts... (I'm on dojang-digest 'cause I spent a few months recently at a local TKD school playing with TKD and Hapkido - loved the school and people, but TKD doesn't fit me well, and while I really liked HKD the lessons became infrequent, so I've ended up back at a Kempo school...) Now to forms... During those 8 years of inactivity, I slowly did less and less - I've forgotten a tremendous amount of my formal material (although most of it is coming back quickly) and could probably found "Sloth-do" at this point... What if I had been doing all my forms regularly during that time? I suspect (with no real evidence either way...) that I'd certainly have remembered the formal material (since I'd have been practicing it) and would still be in decent shape performance-wise. While if I hit someone now, they would know it - certainly better than back when I was a white belt - I'm far from my peak abilities, and I wonder if I'll ever return to that level again - I'll get close, and gain in some areas, but age (and kid-raising!) does take a toll... Several people responded to the "who'd you like to train with" thread with people they'd seen who perform flawlessly. I wonder how those masters became so good. Perhaps natural ability helps (I know my natural-inability hurts me) and perhaps starting at a young age helps (I was 29 before I stood in my first horse stance...) but I'm more inclined to think that it's constant and consistent practice that makes the difference. How do you repeat a motion over and over again, without having to adapt for a different attack? How do you flow from one motion into another, without changing motions because the attacker's moved? How do you learn to move without the mental monkey-chatter? How do you train safely without constantly being out for injuries - which *do* take longer to heal as you age. Perhaps it's just middle-age creaping up, or that forms *are* something I can do without hurting myself, but I'm becoming increasingly enamored of forms - especially as I re-learn the ones I'd forgotten, and learn a few new ones. I have a strong suspicion that the reason an aged master moves so fluidly is simply because they've done so hundreds of thousands of times. I don't think forms are sufficient by themselves - certainly one-to-one work is critical, and I personally believe sparring competition to be necessary, but I think the real muscle-memory training is from the "mindless" (!) repetition - and forms are a good way to do that. And of course an instructor who can correct your mistakes - before you drill the wrong movement into your mind and muscles... And if you'll excuse me, I'll get off this typewriter (where my fingers have sufficiently trained where to go as I think of a word... :) and I'll go work on my forms... - - Al Weiner - - -- - -- Alan Weiner -- alan@ajw.com -- http://www.ajw.com ------------------------------ From: LAHapkido@aol.com Date: Fri, 18 May 2001 12:34:57 EDT Subject: the_dojang: Hapkido Each day that I sit back to read my e-mail, the Dojang Digest in particular, I wonder what will be the topic's concerning Hapkido on this post. I always hope for something positive and reflective that may motivate others that are not Hapkidoist to perhaps join in on, what I consider to be the Greatest Korean Martial Art barred none. Instead I read how others are impersonating Hapkido of a particular Organization and selling video tapes of Hapkido Techniques that are not theirs to sell. The next thing that seems to have been beat to death is the teaching of Hapkido to kids. "You can't teach TRUE Hapkido to children under the high school age." Please, Koreans have been teaching Hapkido to Children for quite some time and I can tell you first hand that it is not some water down version or what ever title you feel that you need to put on it to make you feel superior. Hapkido, is not now nor will it ever be anything other than a true form of Combat Oriented system of Martial Arts. Develop the basic's at an early age and as the child grows physically and mentally so to will their understanding of Hapkido. Hapkido, is so much more than joint locks, throws and take downs. The misrepresentation of Hapkido began somewhere about 15 years ago. People started adding Hapkido to whatever they were teaching in hopes of appealing to the adult market.Hapkido, is not for everyone and it is not an art that can be learned in a day, week, month or year Hapkido takes a lifetime of commitment. Hapkido, is a way of life not a sport or pass time for those who can afford to train. You CANNOT take bits and pieces of Hapkido and add it to what ever you are teaching and call this Hapkido self defense. If you need something to make your system more palatable to the adult market you may want to reevaluate your system. I guess by now some of you are saying who does this guy think he is? That is a fair question, so let me answer that for you. I have devoted my entire life to the betterment of Hapkido. I began training in 1965 and practice daily teaching at my Dojang here in Lafayette Louisiana. I can say that for the past 28 or so years that I have received my training as well as certifications under the same person that I still view as my Kwan Jang, He is Doju Choi, Han Young founder of the Chun Ki System of Hapkido and he has been the Kwan Jang of one other member of this list who you all know well, Master Hal Whalen. Many of the old Master from the early days of Hapkido and the growing stages that it went thought all taught the same way. It was often said "I give you ABC's you make the words that is Hapkido." I hear constant criticism concerning the lack of leadership within the Hapkido community. I feel that the lack of leadership is view different by all. Many of us that are in the position of leadership within Hapkido would ask, What constitutes leadership in the eyes of those complaining? I would like to add that I have trained with Doju Ji,Han Jae, Kwan Jang Han Bong Soo, Dr Kimm, He Young and recently had the pleasure of meeting some of the list members at Grandmaster West Seminar in Mississippi. I guess that the thing that I wanted to cover when I started this was quit casting dispersions and get on the Matt. There is no time for this! Lead by example! I will write more later because this post is way to long Sorry Ray. Grandmaster Daniel T. Rogers 8th Dan Chunki Hapkido ------------------------------ From: J T Date: Fri, 18 May 2001 09:43:55 -0700 (PDT) Subject: the_dojang: Bad link My last email had an address of http://www.geocities.com/jns1994/MAS.html. It should have read as follows http://www.geocities.com/jns1994/MSA.html. Sorry for the bad link. Jeremy __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Auctions - buy the things you want at great prices http://auctions.yahoo.com/ ------------------------------ From: Ray Terry Date: Fri, 18 May 2001 14:40:31 PDT Subject: the_dojang: . ------------------------------ End of The_Dojang-Digest V8 #305 ******************************** It's a great day for Taekwondo! Support the USTU by joining today. US Taekwondo Union, 1 Olympic Plaza, Ste 104C, Colorado Spgs, CO 80909 719-578-4632 FAX 719-578-4642 ustutkd1@aol.com http://www.ustu.org To unsubscribe from the_dojang-digest send the command: unsubscribe the_dojang-digest -or- unsubscribe the_dojang-digest your.old@address in the BODY (top line, left justified) of a "plain text" e-mail addressed to majordomo@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com. Old digest issues are available via ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com. Copyright 1994-2001: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource Standard disclaimers apply.