From: the_dojang-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com To: the_dojang-digest@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Subject: The_Dojang-Digest V8 #310 Reply-To: the_dojang@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Errors-To: the_dojang-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Precedence: The_Dojang-Digest Wed, 23 May 2001 Vol 08 : Num 310 In this issue: the_dojang: RE: Punch/Kick Guys the_dojang: Re: The_Dojang-Digest V8 #309 the_dojang: Re: The_Dojang-Digest V8 #309 the_dojang: RE: The Koreans (revisited) the_dojang: RULES ABOUT PROMOTION the_dojang: Sunday Morning Hapkido the_dojang: Re: Increasing Dan Fees the_dojang: National Town Meeting the_dojang: Re: The_Dojang-Digest V8 #309 the_dojang: forms the_dojang: Re: Dan Fees the_dojang: Old topic, but interesting for the newbies the_dojang: TABOO? to Video Tape for personal use the_dojang: Re: Cross Training the_dojang: . ========================================================================= The_Dojang, serving the Internet since June 1994. ~1111 members strong! Copyright 1994-2001: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource The premier internet discussion forum devoted to the Korean Martial Arts. Replying to this message will NOT unsubscribe you. To unsubscribe, send "unsubscribe the_dojang-digest" (no quotes) in the body (top line, left justified) of a "plain text" e-mail addressed to majordomo@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com. To send e-mail to this list use the_dojang@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com See the Korean Martial Arts (KMA) FAQ and the online search engine for back issues of The_Dojang at http://www.MartialArtsResource.com Pil Seung! ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Bruce.Sims@med.va.gov Date: Tue, 22 May 2001 11:14:49 -0500 Subject: the_dojang: RE: Punch/Kick Guys Dear Charles: "...Please don't generalize about us lowly kick-punch guys..." . Looking back on that remark, I am surprised that I didn't get more of a response. Sorry. It wasn't a slam. We were discussing the nature of a childs' relationship to a arguably sophisticated and heavily culturally specific activity. My point was that it may be worthwhile to keep things on a more simple basis until it is actually the child themselves who expresses a desire to accept the art on the art's terms. As I pointed out in sword class and as others have pointed out in Korean Hapkido classes, there are child participants and they address the same curriculum as the adults. However, there is also a matter of culture, nationalist pride and a reverence for a martial heritage that most of us westerners can only appreciate from a distance no matter how dedicated we might be. Best Wishes, Bruce ------------------------------ From: LAHapkido@aol.com Date: Tue, 22 May 2001 12:35:47 EDT Subject: the_dojang: Re: The_Dojang-Digest V8 #309 Thank You Mr Burrese, I have no doubt that you will set the example and strive to pass on what you know to be right and correct. I hope that more Hapkidoist will do the same. Good luck with your studies and Law school. Kwan Jang Dan Rogers ------------------------------ From: LAHapkido@aol.com Date: Tue, 22 May 2001 12:37:06 EDT Subject: the_dojang: Re: The_Dojang-Digest V8 #309 Hal, Carpe Diem= Sieze the Day! ------------------------------ From: Bruce.Sims@med.va.gov Date: Tue, 22 May 2001 11:53:48 -0500 Subject: the_dojang: RE: The Koreans (revisited) Dear Mark: "... Koreans relish in telling anyone who will listen about their history and legends.." . I want to support that idea, but I am having trouble with the constant revision of material such as in the last 150 years. I agree that Koreans do enjoy relating stories of their past, and especially if those stories involve romantic notions of martial valor and the various aspects of Confucian ethics. No arguement there at all. What I think the point of my comment was that when things come down to concrete facts about, say, the role of the yang ban in resisting governmental reorganization in the late 1800-s or the role of tribal/familial affiliation in the propagation of nepotism in civil service and upper corporate positions suddenly things sorta close up. The matter of the lighting of the palaces was perhaps as much a metaphor as a simile'. "...Whoa! Just a minute. What about the Japanese, Americans...Some Koreans do indeed take an "adversarial position" toward "outsiders" (does Breen define this in detail?)...." Yes, I think you are right to point out that all groups will, to one extent or another, do the same thing. In re-reading the material that I cited, though, I suspect that what Breen is saying (Chap 4 "Shaman under the Skin; Chap 5 "The Generation Gap" and Chapter 6, China's Little Brother) is that the Korean society is and has been much more heavily divided along social and economic lines than perhaps even modern Korean society owns or appreciates. In our own American society we are of course very diverse and that has been our heritage. In the Korean society it seems that Breen is identifying a very heavily divided and ranked society which he characterized as "caste-like" (pg 87) and which is likewise their heritage. This was the matter of "us vs them" that I was seeking to underscore. In such a case I think it is important to know that such a dynamic has been used by Koreans as much against each other as against anyone outside of their culture. Reading his material I found myself wondering if such a dynamic contributed at all to the divisiveness among leaders in the Korean martial traditions as much as anything else. "...as for the hapkido situation, it seems to me that many of the Korean hapkido organizations in the US are thinly veiled businesses out to sign anybody totheir cause and working against others..." Absolutely no arguement from me there. None. What I am hoping to identify is not just how things come to be this way, but why they continue when so many of the influential personalities are still around to make changes even at this late date. I am getting to a place where the simple answers are no longer sufficient. I understand that in the last few years there has been something of a schism in the Kuk Sool Won which I think Rudy and others have alluded to a number of times so its no big secret. If I remember correctly, something not unlike this happened quite a few years back with the Hwa Rang Do organization that GM Lee had established.Of course we have all talked about the various Hapkido organizations coming together, coming apart and then recombining. The simple answer is that a good business went bad. However, given the cultural and sometimes familial bonds among the players I can't help but feel there is something else not being given credit. Best Wishes, Bruce ------------------------------ From: PIERREPETERPEDRO@aol.com Date: Tue, 22 May 2001 13:13:16 EDT Subject: the_dojang: RULES ABOUT PROMOTION MY NAME IS PEDRO. IM A THIRD GUP IN TAEKWONDO. RECENTLY MY TAEKWONDO TEACHER TOLD ME THAT AS SOONEST AS I BECOME A FIRST DEGREE BLACK BELT I COULD START TEACHING MY OWN STUDENTS BUT HE SAID THAT I COULDN'T PROMOTE THEM, ONLY HE COULD. HE SAID I HAD TO BE AT LEAST A FOURTH DEGREE BLACK BELT OR HIGHER TO PROMOTE MY OWN STUDENTS. HE IS A FOURTH DEGREE AND IS HE IS GOING FOR HIS FIFTH. HE ALSO RECENTLY JOINED THE ITF. MY QUESTION IS IF ANYBODY KNOWS WHAT THE RULES ARE IN THE ITF ABOUT PROMOTIONS? THANK YOU! ------------------------------ From: mtomlins@mail.volusia.k12.fl.us Date: Tue, 22 May 2001 13:30:05 -0400 Subject: the_dojang: Sunday Morning Hapkido Knowing Master Whalen all too well, I bet his Sunday morning regime goes something like this: 4:15 a.m.-- wake up, take a dump 4:30 a.m.--run to the south shore, near Quincy 4:45 a.m.--meet students and swim as a group across the bay to one of those deserted islands off the coast of Boston 5:15 a.m.--practice Hapkido for at least 3 hours with no mats or gear going at warp speed and power 8:15 a.m.-- swim back across the bay as a group, along the way Master Whalen snatches some rather large lobsters out of the water with his Hapkido live hands. 8:45 a.m.-- reach the Quincy shoreline, remove all lobster shells with Hapkido grip, and devour them on the spot(LOBSTER IS VERY VERY LOW IN CARBOHYDRATES!). 9:00 a.m.-- runs home 9:15 a.m.-- takes another dump! Am I close to the truth Hal? Michael Tomlinson ------------------------------ From: DrgnSlyr5@aol.com Date: Tue, 22 May 2001 13:41:50 EDT Subject: the_dojang: Re: Increasing Dan Fees In a message dated 5/22/2001 8:48:36 AM Pacific Daylight Time, the_dojang-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com writes: << I know that the discussion about Dan test fees has gone through several times but I can't remember if the reasoning behind the increasing fees (i.e. $70 for !st Dan, $90 for 2nd, $120 for 3rd, etc.) have ever been mentioned. Please direct me to the archives or humor me with some responses for why this occurs. Personally, I feel that it penalizes the students loyalty. Why should I charge them a greater test fee everytime they are promoted? Has this ever been, at least a partial reason, why some of you left your original instructors? >> Perhaps you should look at it from the viewpoint of how much has been invested in the student by his/her Instructor, School, and Assoc., as the student progresses through the Dan ranks. My association's Dan test fees are much higher than what you quoted above and I have absolutely no problem paying them as I have received much more in return. Our annual BB dues are extremely modest and the Assoc. provides several BB events throughout the year at minimum extra cost to participants. Is test fee info made available to students from day one? Does an association regulate the fees that must be charged so that individual school owners have an obligation to honor those set charges? Are students of Dan ranking given more individualized training? Are they given the freedom to train at other schools and/or with other instructors in the assoc.? Are there other extra services or opportunities given BBs that color belts do not have? Are opportunities increased as Dan ranking rises? These are aspects which affect the perceived validity of Dan test fees in relation to value received. DS ------------------------------ From: Tkdtiger@aol.com Date: Tue, 22 May 2001 17:38:51 EDT Subject: the_dojang: National Town Meeting - --part1_22.1670b4e8.283c366b_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Just a reminder that the USTU member town meeting will be at 8 pm on May 24th - - at the Cleveland Convention Center - room 202. The first 30 minutes will be a presentation by Executive Director Jay Warwick, the last 60 minutes will be a USTU Q&A session. (Please keep in mind that complaints under review by the L&L committee cannot be discussed.) Hope to see u there. - --part1_22.1670b4e8.283c366b_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Just a reminder that the USTU member town meeting will be at 8 pm on May 24th
- at the Cleveland Convention Center - room 202.

The first 30 minutes will be a presentation by Executive Director Jay
Warwick, the last 60 minutes will be a USTU Q&A session.  (Please keep in
mind that complaints under review by the L&L committee cannot be discussed.)

Hope to see u there. - --part1_22.1670b4e8.283c366b_boundary-- ------------------------------ From: "Dizzy S." Date: Tue, 22 May 2001 19:44:01 -0400 Subject: the_dojang: Re: The_Dojang-Digest V8 #309 Ken McDonough wrote: <> Nope. It's just a nickname I picked up as a teenager because of my infamous "blonde" moments lol. <> Thank you, sir. I will look into that :o) He sounds like my master lol. Craig Stovall wrote: <<1. You're absolutely right in that you can't realistically practice eye gouges, groin kicks, knee stomps, and vital point striking. To do this stuff in a "live" environment against a resisting opponent would be suicidal. That's exactly why I believe that 90% of these techniques that are "too deadly for competition" will fail the practicioner in a real fight. I believe that under stressful conditions (and I've experienced this) a fighter will fall to the level of his/her training. If you've never been able to practice these brutal techniques under conditions that approach a real fight (no pre-determined sequences, opponent is actively resisting, etc) then how do you know that you can rely on this stuff? I believe the answer is simple...you can't.>> We do practice these techs on each other to a certain extent. But not in sparring. We will actually do take-downs on each other (IF the other person knows how to fall). We practice self defence techs to the point where the pain starts. Like if it's a wrist or arm grab, WILL bend the arm, but only until the other person starts to feel pain and "taps out". It gives us an idea what it would feel like and shows us if we are doin the tech right. We do pressure points techs on each other just to find out where these spots are and if we are hitting the right spots. And we have the guys "resist" the gals in the self defence stuff too, and our master makes them grab us "tight". He MAKES us learn what to do to get away. If we don't do it right, the guys will stand there and keep ahold of us. Or he'll have one person "fend off" different random attacks from several people. It's a good learning experience. <> Thank you, sir :o) Don't worry. I'm sure I'll have plenty more questions to keep ya busy in the future lol. I'm testing for my 6th gup (TSD) next week, and I have several more years to learn and ask questions :o) Lorne Keatley wrote: <> Wow! Really good points there, Lorne :o) I never thought of it that way. Thanks. It does help :o) Thanks to everyone who respnonded. You all helped a lot :o) Talk to ya soon, Dizz _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com ------------------------------ From: "Dizzy S." Date: Tue, 22 May 2001 23:52:03 -0400 Subject: the_dojang: forms Craig wrote; <> My grading is a 10 ("Forms are the cornerstone of martial arts training ... they can't be replaced and are still relevant"). Charles said it best when he wrote .... <. Forms provide a vehicle for moving meditaion. Forms are an excellent way to do interval training. Forms can be done anywhere and without a partner, dojang or dobohk. Forms are a key identifying part of our history. For all the reasons above I give them a solid 8 as part of my theoretical JKD approach to training, and my TSD roots. I truly believe it is hard to develop a solid yudanja without hyungs, sparring, and self defense skills.>> And I agree. I wanna add that if someone learns the form and not the "meaning" behind it, yea it would be useless. But, if someone "digs" deep into the form, asks questions, and learns "about" each form and what each movement is for, then it is very valuable. In my dojang, we don't just learn the form. We learn the history, how many movements there is, where it came from, ect. And we learn what each movement (block, strike, kick, ect) is for and what it could do if done right. I forget which form it is, but there is one that has a "staff block" in it. One student asked what that silly looking movement is for and my master said, "Do it." When she did, he swung a staff at her (downward) and she blocked it. It's very useful in learning how to do stances properly also ( I had to throw that in Charles .... grins). Just think about what you are doing next time you do forms. If ya don't know, ask. Talk to you all soon. Tang Soo! Dizz _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com ------------------------------ From: Piotr Bernat Date: Tue, 22 May 2001 21:43:33 +0200 Subject: the_dojang: Re: Dan Fees > Personally, I feel that it penalizes the students loyalty. Why should I > charge them a greater test fee everytime they are promoted? Has this ever > been, at least a partial reason, why some of you left your original > instructors? Not necessary left, but I know some people that don`t test for higher grades because they can`t see the reason of spending hundreds of $$$ just for another stripe on belt (and keep in mind that US$ 300 here means not the same as in the U.S.). Some day - I hope - I will test for 4th Dan, but I doubt I will ever test for 5th Dan KKW for the reason mentioned above. Regards - -- Piotr Bernat dantaekwondo@lublin.home.pl http://www.taekwondo.prv.pl ------------------------------ From: "Dizzy S." Date: Wed, 23 May 2001 03:47:58 -0400 Subject: the_dojang: Old topic, but interesting for the newbies Hiya, all. I was reading back issues of the Dojang, and I found something (from 1997 hee hee) that is very interesting to me. It was on the subject of women and jumping, spinning, ect. kicks. I think Ray might remember this. Anyway, they went on about women have a harder time with jump kicks because our center of gravity is different than mens. And some have a fear of falling. Me on the other hand, I have no problem with jump front, side, and roundhouse kicks, and they were easy for me to learn. Even the jump 360 roundhouse and front kicks are easy to me. My advice for those who have trouble with jump kicks is work on your "jumps" first. Jump up and bring your legs up at the same time. Work on getting hight, then work on kicking while you're in the air. If you're legs aren't very strong, try doing lunges for a few weeks, and jumping rope. Some girls in my school found this very helpful, and they were doing jump kicks in no time :o) This is advice I got from a very good black belt (it seems this guy is good at everthing! lol). My problem is the back kick. Which is really wierd to me cause I have a mean back hook kick, but my back kicks stink. I can't do a jump back kick to save my life! It is really frustrating. I can't do a wheel kick either. It ends up looking like a hook kick. Anyone who can give me any pointers, it will help a lot. Thanks in advance :o) And on the topic of "fear of falling". I'm not bashing people with any kind of fear, cause I have a fear of my own that a 6 year old can relate to (and I'm 26!). Anyway, I always get paired with a lady or ladies who don't like to fall. One has a good reason (bad back). I'm an orange belt (soon to be green .... next week) and I have no fear of falling. I was a white belt letting the black belts throw me around like a rag doll lol, and I'm not much younger than a few of them. They won't even throw ME. My problem (maybe "problem" is too strong of a word .... frustrating is more like it for them, not me) is when we are practicing take-downs. I can't take them down, and in the prossess, I'm not learning the tech right, because I "can't" with them. When it's their turn to do the take-down, they "won't" take me down. Why? I tell them, "Go for it. I like getting thrown around. Ask them (while I'm pointing to the black belts)". But they shake their heads with fear on their face. Is it a fear of getting hurt or hurting someone else? Did they not learn how to fall correctly and got hurt before? Keep in mind that these ladies I'm talking about ARE black belts. I'm thinking maybe it's because the old owners of my school took out the self defence part, and the hapkido stuff that we learn now. The new owner brought it back when he took over in October (when I started). Does anyone else have or had a fear of falling? How did you rid yourself of this fear? I really like to help these ladies, because I see the frustration in their faces when they "can't" do something. Thanks in advance :o) Dizz _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com ------------------------------ From: "Maureen" Date: Wed, 23 May 2001 15:33:21 -0400 Subject: the_dojang: TABOO? to Video Tape for personal use Is it 'taboo' to tape classes for your own personal practice (with the instructors permission of course)? I am not looking to sell it or exploit anyone & would prefer if it were just of my instructor & not of other learning classmates,who also have the right to their privacy. After videoing one class, of just my instructor & another student (who was ok with the taping) plus myself I was told not to tape any other classes, stating he was uncomfortable with it. The instructor seemed quite enthusiastic about it before & during the taping but seems to have changed his mind, since it's his school that's his prerogative. I am glad to have the one tape because it truly has helped improve my performance. I have noticed other people taping their children (or mates) during class & at belt tests, is this standard practice as well? . Also what about taping at tournaments? Would this have anything to do with copy righting or law suits? Any one know that particular recourse? My reason for the taping was to have a reference to practice forms correctly. I don't always remember every step. He told me to video myself at home but I can't teach myself a new form. I do tape to critique what I do know for style etc, as many athletes do. I am not referring to taping every class, just one, for example a class where I know we will be doing forms. Most students take notes & tape other types of classes as I did in college. I thought it might work for martial art classes as well, since I don't even have a text book to refer to. I enjoy my classes & just want to do well at my new passion. I am not angry just wondering what the 'rules' are. Any instructors or students who have an opinion on this? ------------------------------ From: Lorne Keatley Date: Wed, 23 May 2001 17:00:36 -0400 Subject: the_dojang: Re: Cross Training Kevin wrote: One thing that stands out more than anything is that to truly understand and master one technique (system) is to not mush in other influences which distort the underlining "way" of the technique. As far as I am concerened, there is more than enough material in Hapkido to focus on to defer the need to add more. Of course there is always something new or different that can be used to improve or enhance ones technique or abilities. I agree with the mixing up of concepts that are not compatible. However, if you look at methods done by related arts, such as jujitsu, hapkido, and aikido, more often than not you see concepts that you may have forgotten about in you own system. You then can smack your forehead in disbelief and place those concepts back into your techniques. Learning new techniques is fun, but transferring concepts is the way to get the benefit out of crosstraining. Lorne ------------------------------ From: Ray Terry Date: Wed, 23 May 2001 18:57:07 PDT Subject: the_dojang: . ------------------------------ End of The_Dojang-Digest V8 #310 ******************************** It's a great day for Taekwondo! Support the USTU by joining today. US Taekwondo Union, 1 Olympic Plaza, Ste 104C, Colorado Spgs, CO 80909 719-578-4632 FAX 719-578-4642 ustutkd1@aol.com http://www.ustu.org To unsubscribe from the_dojang-digest send the command: unsubscribe the_dojang-digest -or- unsubscribe the_dojang-digest your.old@address in the BODY (top line, left justified) of a "plain text" e-mail addressed to majordomo@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com. Old digest issues are available via ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com. 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