From: the_dojang-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com To: the_dojang-digest@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Subject: The_Dojang-Digest V8 #350 Reply-To: the_dojang@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Errors-To: the_dojang-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Precedence: The_Dojang-Digest Wed, 20 June 2001 Vol 08 : Num 350 In this issue: the_dojang: 15th degree? the_dojang: RE:Maybe rank is getting "rank". the_dojang: Re: The_Dojang-Digest V8 #346 the_dojang: Re: The_Dojang-Digest V8 #349 the_dojang: Sip p'al ki update the_dojang: Fear of sparring the_dojang: . ========================================================================= The_Dojang, serving the Internet since June 1994. ~1111 members strong! Copyright 1994-2001: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource The premier internet discussion forum devoted to the Korean Martial Arts. Replying to this message will NOT unsubscribe you. To unsubscribe, send "unsubscribe the_dojang-digest" (no quotes) in the body (top line, left justified) of a "plain text" e-mail addressed to majordomo@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com. To send e-mail to this list use the_dojang@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com See the Korean Martial Arts (KMA) FAQ and the online search engine for back issues of The_Dojang at http://www.MartialArtsResource.com Pil Seung! ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: cspiller@e3mil.com Date: Tue, 19 Jun 2001 07:14:43 -0700 Subject: the_dojang: 15th degree? Cliff Vaught wrote: Why else would a Kenpo master self-promote to 15th Degree? WHAT!?! I'm hoping this was some sort of typo. Taekwon, Chris "Every Experience of Beauty Points to Infinity" Hans Urs von Balthasar _______________________________________________________________ Get your Private, Anti-Spam, Free Email at http://e3mil.com Your Internet Home for Your Faith, Your Life, and Your World! ------------------------------ From: Bruce.Sims@med.va.gov Date: Tue, 19 Jun 2001 09:56:08 -0500 Subject: the_dojang: RE:Maybe rank is getting "rank". Dear Cliff: "... As if our accomplishment is in some way less than theirs or that our accomplishments demean theirs. I was considering a letter to the editors of BBM. No - I don't condone the "black belt factory" approach where Dans are pumped out with 2 years of training. My son earned his Cho Dan at age 10 - and he'd been training for 6 years to get there. One thing I love about Soo Bahk Do Moo Duk Kwan is the time requirement between levels of Dan...." I thought your post had much good to share and started me thinking about something that pops up in my mind now and again. One of the activities I am involved with when I am not pestering Ray here in the Digest is the local Masonic lodge here in Waukegan, Illinois. Last Saturday we had our yearly installation and I have moved up a notch in the lodge hierarchy and will continue to move up to the head position in the lodge where I will make my contributions for a year before giving the leadership over to the fella behind me. The reason I share this is that the whole purpose of this progression is not so much an administrative process as it is a system by which men learn to become increasingly productive and effective members of their community. The idea of a series of ranks is just a tool for organizing this process. I mention this because I believe that I am hearing many comments about rank as though rank itself has some intrinsic meaning or worth all its own. It seems as though contributors are gauging their standing according to their rank, status according to rank, profficiency according to rank and authority according to rank. What bothers me is that I somehow get the feeling as though rank is being portrayed as a kind of one-way escalator which moves steadily to the top of the pyramid and that individuals can't seem to take their eyes off the top step---- nor know what to do with themselves once they get there. I wonder if we Americans don't put just a bit too much focus on attainment and not enough focus on the process. I know at least a few guys who feel this way because they view an extended commitment to a teacher as just that much more time they are serving as said teachers' "rice bowl" and I think they resent it. Looking at it another way, though, is that all our commitment to MA is--- a matter of not giving someone too much of our hard-earned cash? What happened to the idea of commiting oneself to MA because its the kind of life values and learning method we have selected as best for ourselves? At one time I suppose that ones' position in the process of personal growth could be identified by the color of the belt around their waist. Right about now, though, it seems like the tail has begun to wag the dog and people have begun to work FOR the belt, rather than what the belt was suppose to be a symbol of. Thanks for letting me use your post as a jumping-off point to express my thoughts. Best Wishes, Bruce ------------------------------ From: FGS & KVF Date: Tue, 19 Jun 2001 08:16:01 -0700 Subject: the_dojang: Re: The_Dojang-Digest V8 #346 > KSW is a combo of joint locking (226 clothing and hand grab techniques before > BB), weapons (staff, sword, fans, butterfly knives-some of which you learn > before BB), kicking, hand strikes, wrestling, meditation. It is a very fun art > to learn. It is a combo of soft-hard. Flowing motion is emphasized. The rank > levels are laid out as to what forms and techniques are required to promote and > depending on the instructor, I don't know Mr. Evarts, the student may be > required to know the techniques L and R hand, out of order and in different > positions. I have enjoyed my time in this art, and am currently a > beg-intermediate after 3 years. It does show techniques that will help in > self-defense, but as in any MA, motor learning takes a long time, and 226 > techniques is a lot to absorb. Have fun. Spunky > Hiya all. > > I finally found a dojang in NY. It's Kuk Sool Won style. The school is > called Kuk Sool Won of Greater Rochester. The Instructor's name is Gary > Evarts. > > I don't know much about Kuk Sool Won, but from what I read on it, it's a > well rounded art. It's like TSD with, ground fighting, weapons, ext. Does > anyone have any more info on KSW, and does anyone know of Gary Evart? > > Thanks in advance. Tang Soo! > Dizz > 6th Gup TSD > > P.S. I'll prolly be moving up there in August. _________________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com ------------------------------ From: FGS & KVF Date: Tue, 19 Jun 2001 08:30:44 -0700 Subject: the_dojang: Re: The_Dojang-Digest V8 #349 > From: "Clifford Vaught" > Date: Tue, 19 Jun 2001 13:21:38 > Subject: the_dojang: Re: The_Dojang-Digest V8 #345 > > Hello Dojang Digest - it's been a very long time for me. I had to weigh in > on the recent article in BB Mag about black belts. I really appreciate > Neal's response to Phil because quite frankly, I was really put out by the > article. I couldn't help but feel as if there is a mindset that says if > others increase, I decrease. Why else would a Kenpo master self-promote to > 15th Degree? These masters are the teachers of this generation. All my > life, whether it was football, the Navy, the IT industry I'm a part of now, > or karate, I have heard "well, you've got it easy compared to when I came > through" from some older, wiser, crony. As if our accomplishment is in some > way less than theirs or that our accomplishments demean theirs. I would have to say that considering the fact that the MA in the 60s & 70s were taught by people who learned from Koreans or Japanese while in the military or over here and the teaching methods were "drive student into ground", that yes, I agree that things are easier now. thank god for that. I am in my 30s and the "traditional" tough training where no pads are used and students are hit with bamboo swords hard when they make an error has no appeal and I would not have a body left. Let's face it, older people start the MA now, and we know more about the body and what types of activities, and positions will be damaging in the long run. It does not imply that the new crop of MAs are inferior, altho, considering the schools I have seen and visited, I can see that the BBs are not all of the same caliber. The rank, BB, means something different now. Many schools seem to allow promotion sooner to keep students, so that I have seen 2nd & 3rd dans who actually possess the skills of a first degree BB. they just got promoted quicker. That doesn't mean you or your son aren't skilled in MA. Just the general trend seems to be early promotion and you can see this at tournaments, demos and by visiting schools. Spunky _________________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com ------------------------------ From: "Andrew Pratt" Date: Wed, 20 Jun 2001 18:37:23 +0900 Subject: the_dojang: Sip p'al ki update Dear Bruce, At the risk of starting a another epic discussion with you :-p, I can perhaps flesh out your sip p'al ki post a little. >> Thanks, Ray, that helps some. I had done a search through YAHOO using "shipalgi" and gotten a number of hits that related to "18 hands of Lohan" which are the ki-building ("chi kung") techniques. On the other hand, I did another search of YAHOO using "ship pal ki" and came up with a number of listings throughout the US for Chung Moo Doe (sic), ("...Ship pal gae means 18 weapons. Though there are hundreds of Chinese weapons, Ship Pal Gae incorporates the main 18 Chinese weapons..."). << Not being a Chinese (ma) scholar, I can't really comment on this. I do suspect though that Chinese ma scholars, though not as handicapped by the lack of materials as Korean researchers, also suffer a little tunnel-vision when it comes to tracing the origins of Chinese martial arts. Although there are many Chinese military manuals (The Chinese military reprinted the state manuals a couple of years ago. Oxford University has the collection. It is over 30 volumes and that didn't include the Wu Bei Ji!!), most are technical descriptions and few contain substantial material on individual combat techniques. There are two exceptions, the Wu Bei Ji (and we have to be careful here because there are at least two distinct manuals of this name. The book I am referring to is not the book that McCarthy translated for Tuttle Press a couple of years ago) and the Xi Jao Shin Shoo (please excuse the romanisation I don't have my notes with me). It is the latter book which first defines the essential 18 weapons though I suspect the author just intended to record the weapons that he had found useful against pirates. I mention all this because I have read several Tai Chi histories which trace their lineage back to this book. Since this manual, like the Muye Tobo T'ongji, describes military techniques I am dubious as to the link to the esoteric Qigung techniques. >> I was curious about this listing as it carried "Oom Yung Doe" parenthetically in the contact information. I recalled that GM Lee (HwaRangDo had made reference to UM-Yang Do as the art that he had been taught early in his MA career. << Um = Yin, Yang = Yang. I have never heard of a martial art called this. Sounds more like a form of Qigong. >> There was also a listing in the Bronx, NY for a "kung fu" (sic) school which identified what it taught as "korean kung fu". For this latter listing there was no background regarding lineage or affiliation and quite a bit on sparring and competition. I also found a rather obscure listing concerning various chuan fa styles which had been mixed and matched but no real leads on their relationship to the arts practiced in Korean traditions. << I have recently made contact with someone who practises 'Korean Sip p'al gi' (my term not his). He told me that there are two sip p'al gi arts currently in Korea. One was created by a Korean during the 1960s based on the techniques described in the Muye Tobo T'ongji (and no, he does not apparently get on well with Lim, Dong-kyu). The other Sip p'al gi was brought into Korea by persons unknown but is basically 'Chinese Sip P'al Gi' as described above by Bruce. I hope that has cleared things up a little. ;-) Andrew ------------------------------ From: Charles Richards Date: Wed, 20 Jun 2001 05:52:05 -0700 (PDT) Subject: the_dojang: Fear of sparring Exit Lurk Mode... I would echo Mr. Zaruba (DD#346). Drills...limit target areas...more target areas...more sparring. All of this builds confidence, just like our 3 (or ten) gup levels :-) My student cirriculum follows this path. One would be 6th Gup green belt, before required to spar with body targets only....of course as skill level increases, we approach more realistic scenarios :-) Yours in Jung Do, Charles R. Moja Kwan __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get personalized email addresses from Yahoo! Mail http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/ ------------------------------ From: Ray Terry Date: Wed, 20 Jun 2001 7:12:54 PDT Subject: the_dojang: . ------------------------------ End of The_Dojang-Digest V8 #350 ******************************** It's a great day for Taekwondo! Support the USTU by joining today. 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