From: the_dojang-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com To: the_dojang-digest@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Subject: The_Dojang-Digest V8 #372 Reply-To: the_dojang@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Errors-To: the_dojang-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Precedence: The_Dojang-Digest Mon, 2 July 2001 Vol 08 : Num 372 In this issue: the_dojang: Re: The_Dojang-Digest V8 #365 the_dojang: km the_dojang: Re: The_Dojang-Digest V8 #365 the_dojang: RE: BigMacs and beer... the_dojang: Re: The_Dojang-Digest V8 #369 the_dojang: Re: The_Dojang-Digest V8 #371 the_dojang: Grandma VS Training? the_dojang: RE: The_Dojang-Digest V8 #371 the_dojang: RE: Cops the_dojang: Force the_dojang: Force 2 BOUNCE the_dojang: Non-member submission from ["Robert Martin" the_dojang: Leaving the_dojang: . ========================================================================= The_Dojang, serving the Internet since June 1994. ~1111 members strong! Copyright 1994-2001: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource The premier internet discussion forum devoted to the Korean Martial Arts. Replying to this message will NOT unsubscribe you. To unsubscribe, send "unsubscribe the_dojang-digest" (no quotes) in the body (top line, left justified) of a "plain text" e-mail addressed to majordomo@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com. To send e-mail to this list use the_dojang@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com See the Korean Martial Arts (KMA) FAQ and the online search engine for back issues of The_Dojang at http://www.MartialArtsResource.com Pil Seung! ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Chereecharmello@aol.com Date: Mon, 2 Jul 2001 10:20:47 EDT Subject: the_dojang: Re: The_Dojang-Digest V8 #365 << What have other folks found in their "traditional MA" classes? Is our kyosanim torturing us above and beyond the call of duty? (wouldn't have it any other way :-)) >> Well, MK, since I am usually standing next to you sweating like a "pet" turkey on Thanksgiving morning, I must concur. If you are not sweating in a "traditional MA" class then you are not working hard enough. By stating the very word "traditional," you are implying that the style includes intense training. Maybe your style is NOT traditional and the instructor is not concerned with perfection. If I have learned one thing from "traditional MA's," it's that road to perfection is full of hurts and SWEATS. - -Cheree ------------------------------ From: "Sawyer, Mark D., M.D." Date: Mon, 2 Jul 2001 09:43:07 -0500 Subject: the_dojang: km Spunky, Can only speak for myself, but your initial post (and follow-ups) seem much more like an advertisement for krav maga than an invitation to discuss/contrast korean martial arts with another art. This is, after all, a korean martial arts discussion group; I subscribed to this list for that reason. Although I'm only just out of the white belt stage (and back in, now that I've switched from Songham to WTF style), I spent a lot of time researching the various martial arts, and settled on TKD - not only because it seemed effective, but I was attracted to the style, the movements...in short, the art of the art. If I wanted to discuss krav maga, I'd do so in an appropriate forum. If peeps are going to take the time and trouble to subscribe to a korean martial arts list, it's probably because they're pretty dedicated to their art. No, I'm not ticked off or anything, just my 2 cents. Normally wouldn't even reply on something like this, but you seem to me to be a bit disingenuous about the posting. Just my impression. // mark ------------------------------ From: Chereecharmello@aol.com Date: Mon, 2 Jul 2001 10:47:49 EDT Subject: the_dojang: Re: The_Dojang-Digest V8 #365 I saw a rather disturbing display at a recent tournament. Do any DD members have an opinion on "Musical Forms?" ------------------------------ From: "Atchinson, Kerry M" Date: Mon, 2 Jul 2001 10:06:45 -0500 Subject: the_dojang: RE: BigMacs and beer... You could afford BigMacs and beer in college? Not everyone can, which was my point. Some of us struggle financially through school just like the dedicated ones among us struggle with their business. If you don't have it, you don't have it. Kerry > From: Neal Konecky > Date: Fri, 29 Jun 2001 17:30:22 -0700 (PDT) > Subject: the_dojang: Re: The_Dojang-Digest V8 #364 > > Kerry, > > I have been a college student, and a graduate student. I have had my own > business that > required me to skip meals in order to keep the doors open just a little > longer. I know > from whence I speak. > > There are things that I value much more than money. I value loyalty and > dedication. I > value respect and tradition. And, qutie frankly, if an instructor who > dedicates 100's of > hours of his time makes $10.00 on a uniform, I do not quibble. Surely the > time that I > have spent with my Sabum, and the things that he has taught me are much > more valuable to > me than a couple big macs or a couple of beers (other things that cost > $10.00). > > Neal Konecky > > ===== > "Our government, conceived in freedom and purchased with blood, can be > preserved only by constant vigilance" > William Jennings Bryan ------------------------------ From: Chereecharmello@aol.com Date: Mon, 2 Jul 2001 11:23:54 EDT Subject: the_dojang: Re: The_Dojang-Digest V8 #369 << How can I change the "thinking too much" to just "doing"? Any advice will be most helpful. Thanks in advance. Tang Soo! Dizz >> The truth is, you MUST think about the form when you first learn it. Perhaps it would help if your instructor told you what each move was defending and showed you the counter attacks that make up the form. After you understand why/how to use the form realistically, stand in front of a mirror and work on a small portion of the form at a time (such as holding the one legged position just before the snap of the side kick) This is the first form that breaks the "i" pattern. Pat yourself on the back for making it this far and keep practicing. Eventually, you won't have to think before you execute a move... Tang Soo! - -Cheree ------------------------------ From: kronikmac Date: Mon, 2 Jul 2001 10:48:50 -0500 Subject: the_dojang: Re: The_Dojang-Digest V8 #371 Mr. Ouellette, From the tone of your letter I'd say you have the same outlook on the world that every other cop I've ever met whether through them doing their job or in a social atmosphere and that is "Well I'm right because I'm a cop and I know everything and you're wrong because you're not a cop" As for your view of today's police reality shows I seem to remember most officers loved em when they first came out, that is until civilians started using them to question police officers actions. Just because we the people question your actions doesn't mean we disrespect you, It's usually the Holy-er-then-thou attitude you affect when answering the questions that makes people disrespect officers. i.e. your quote "Well at least we know the basis of your knowledge." Couldn't you have tried to put that in friendlier terms, maybe by first asking if these shows were the only source of information the person was drawing on to make his overall conclusion that cops "like" to play dogpile on a prone suspect? And on that subject, I agree with you, If a civilian doesn't know all the circumstances behind the actions he shouldn't just assume the cops are being bullies. If I was chasing a subject and I didn't know if he was armed or not I'd probably stop chasing him, but you can't since it's your job to catch him and you shouldn't risk any more then you have to so in my opinion when you do catch him then do what you have to to make sure your safe. Basically what I'm saying is take a little more time to explain your position (on the internet that is, I understand that in Real Life situations you don't always have time to massage the publics ego) and you wont come off as the average Know-It-All-Cop and maybe you can help educate the public on why you take the actions you do instead of strengthening their attitude that all cops are arrogant asses. I am not trying to do any name calling and I respect you for your choice of job. Choosing to place oneself in danger to protect people you don't even know is truly a noble cause, Don't demean that by flying off the handle because the average public citizen doesn't have the slightest idea what it's like to do your job. Educate don't Intimidate! Just my .02 cents, you can flush it with the rest. Danny Dodge ------------------------------ From: "Meghan Gardner" Date: Mon, 2 Jul 2001 11:53:27 -0400 Subject: the_dojang: Grandma VS Training? For the record, I don't think there was a single instructor/person on this list that said that anyone should choose a testing over Grandma's birthday. The question that was addressed was whether it is appropriate/feasible/desirable to offer separate testing dates for individuals who couldn't make a testing for whatever reason. In this, we all have differing standards and ideas. So I don't think there is one "true" answer. I don't see having a student wait until the next testing as a "punishment". It's simply part of life. Patience is sometimes required in our training. Other instructors see this as a negative impact upon the student and would accommodate the student with a separate testing. I can see their view but simply don't agree with the practice for our school. And that's the beauty of diversity. Meghan Gardner Director Guard Up, Inc. Waltham, MA www.guardup.com "Always carry love in your heart, and a knife in your pocket." me ------------------------------ From: "Sawyer, Mark D., M.D." Date: Mon, 2 Jul 2001 11:23:20 -0500 Subject: the_dojang: RE: The_Dojang-Digest V8 #371 > What scares me a bit is to hear that this sort of thing (KM) is being taught > to Police. IMHO, the adrenilin pumping action of such arts may limit the > ability to of an officer to think before he jumps into action. The very > idea of combative arts is rapid fire reaction with mega force. Man, two replies in one day. :-) I'm personally of the opinion that police should have the most effective means of protecting themselves and subduing criminals as possible. They protect us and assume personal risk in doing so...and those they protect us from usually aren't constrained by any rules of "fair play" or honor. They put their lives on the line, and you don't want them to use a system because it's too effective? ------------------------------ From: Bruce.Sims@med.va.gov Date: Mon, 2 Jul 2001 11:34:28 -0500 Subject: the_dojang: RE: Cops Dear Jack: "...Just .02 cents from a Police Officer (who can control himself from jumping on prone people.)..." Good post. Here is another place where I vote we take the romantic, media-driven interpretation of an occupation and send it to wherever socks go when you put your clothes in the dryer. There was quite an exchange on EBUDO Net some months back that addressed the matter of training activities for police officers. Participants included more than a couple of supervisory staff from establish departmental programs, more than a few ground-pounders and donut-addicts as well as a cross-section of MA people who offered various courses in "combat systems." Themes varied from application, participant engagement and retention, curriculum and risk management concerning the use of excessive force/lethal force. It was a great exchange, and left me with a bit different view from some of what I am hearing here. I am coming to believe that teaching MA to police officers may be a bit too fraught with qualifiers in our modern world to be able to draw a conclusion that police officers are exposed to busting heads and so need to know how to do it well. Yes, MA history has a record of busting butts well into the last century. OS Takeda taught police chiefs and judges as well as occasionally hired himself out to clean-up specific situations. Fine, but I don't think the individuals with whom he dealt had lawyers who would be perfectly willing to bankrupt a city using a media frenzy as a weapon. Listening to the various posts in the exchange I cited, modern police are compelled to walk a much finer as well as fuzzy line between appropriate vs inappropriate responses. Of course, there will always be the marginal cops that will take a nasty suspect to a booking the long way during which time he will experience more than having to sit on his cuffs. On the otherhand there will also always be domestic violence calls that turn bloody in an instant. From what I drew from that EBUDO string, though, there is more than a little Hollywood image stuff happening in this subject, with way too many nights of cat-in-a-tree calls to justify a protracted commitment to on-going traditional MA training for the average officer. The way I heard it, if people saw LE in real time the TV shows would be long on routine and short on action. How say you, Jack? Are there stats to support this one way or another? BTW: I got $5 that says its not possible to hit a child molester hard enough to put blood in his urine. :-) Best Wishes, Bruce ------------------------------ From: "Rudy Timmerman" Date: Mon, 02 Jul 2001 00:29:15 -0400 Subject: the_dojang: Force Jack writes: > LOL, another armchair police expert who has all the answers. All you see > is what the media has chosen to give you without seeing the whole incident. > police jumping all over a "person already prone" is a rarity. Ive yet to > see that happen in anything other than a riot situation where they were > resisting a lawful order to disburse (sit in, traffic blocking etc) Hello Jack: The shows that you so vehemently attack are the same shows that various police departments cooperate with in production. In fact, the cameras crews are often passengers in the police vehicles. I guess the Yellow Journalism you speak of must have some great connenctions within the various forces. While I am unfortunately too busy (teaching SWAT teams etc. for free), almost every "pile" I observed never occurred in a riot situation. > As far as cruisers getting in eache others way, it's unaviodable as chases are > dynamic constantly changing events. the use of alot of cars aids in > creating a rolling road block to slow and shut down the highway in the > event the purp crashes. Take another look at the famous (infamous) OJ scene Jack :) > Well at least we know the basis of your knowledge. Jack, I have been around this sort of thing since I was a kid (sixty some years ago). I grew up in a household of law enforcement officers, and in fact I received my first Jiu Jitsu training from my uncle (a police officer who lived in our home) when I was ten. Since then I have consulted, taught, and otherwise shared knowledge with Leos in Canada, the US, and Europe. > just wonder if the shift from bone crushing to PPCT is going back to the > original ideas of law enforcement?>>>>> Take a good look at the above QUESTION Jack. That's all I asked:) No derogatory statement, Just a question to see if the pendulum is swinging back the other way. > > So, youve taught for free as a community service? or to draw in more > revenue? READ Jack. FREE does not generate more income where I come from. > Cause you taught for free doesnt make it right for you to > criticise something for which you know absolutely jack s__T about. My credentials can be checked, rechecked, and verified on the mat anytime, anyplace, by anyone. In fact, although I am not proud of that part of my history, much of my knowledge was tested (on the streets) by me Jack. > If you want to be "supportive to LEO"S " like you say you were in the past > > whynot attack the yelolow journalism of the press that shapes and distorts the > truth and sway the public with lies,innnuendos and fabrication. See my first paragraph. > > Just .02 cents from a Police Officer (who can control himself from jupming > on prone people.) Jack. The tone of your letter says it all. If you get this pumped up by a simple question supported by some observations, I'd hate to see your control in action. Relax Jack. Its a nice holiday, enjoy it :-) BTW, take a look at Mark's reply. Now there is someone who has it under control. If I am ever to be arrested, I sure as H hope it to be by someone like Mark. Sincerely, Rudy ------------------------------ From: "Rudy Timmerman" Date: Mon, 02 Jul 2001 00:34:05 -0400 Subject: the_dojang: Force 2 Mark writes: > Police are required to use the least force necessary to stop the threat....or else BIG lawsuits happen. Hi Mark. Thanks for a decent reply. Some time ago, there was a big push to eliminate excessive force. In fact, it was the reason for the birth of PPCT. Is there, in your opinion, a swing back to more agression? Sincerely, Rudy ------------------------------ From: Ray Terry Date: Mon, 02 Jul 2001 10:15:29 PDT Subject: BOUNCE the_dojang: Non-member submission from ["Robert Martin" Forwarded message: From: "Robert Martin" Subject: ITF World Championships -- Day 2 After a long wait for busses this afternoon, we finally arrived in Rimini, Italy -- the site of the 12th ITF World Championships. We spent a few hours checking in at the sport venue and then headed to our hotels. The US team is housed in several hotels, down by the beach. Our room holds three -- barely (but there are four beds!). We are on the 5th (top) floor. The elevator goes only to the 4th so we have one flight up. I must say that dinner (included with our rooms) was very good -- salad, paste, pork chop with peas and watermelon. Actual events start on July 4 (a good day for the US Team). First up are individual sparring and patterns. I'll post results as soon as possible. Taekwon, Robert Martin A-4-336 _________________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com ------------------------------ From: "Rudy Timmerman" Date: Mon, 02 Jul 2001 00:41:57 -0400 Subject: the_dojang: Leaving Donnla writes: > Just thought I'd say - not all martial arts students are going to leave > your schools if you don't advance them regularly. Hello Donnla: I agree; however, most professional schools have found they are unable to sustain their schools without some sort of compromise in this area. For the first few decades of my career as an Instructor, I taught as I was taught. If a student didn't get it, I showed him the ways of his errors with my Jook Do. Those were the days where I personally subsidized my school's rent payments. In most areas, there are simply not enough of the type of students who will stick around to learn regardless of time etc. Sincerely, Rudy ------------------------------ From: Ray Terry Date: Mon, 02 Jul 2001 11:28:54 PDT Subject: the_dojang: . ------------------------------ End of The_Dojang-Digest V8 #372 ******************************** It's a great day for Taekwondo! Support the USTU by joining today. US Taekwondo Union, 1 Olympic Plaza, Ste 104C, Colorado Spgs, CO 80909 719-578-4632 FAX 719-578-4642 ustutkd1@aol.com http://www.ustu.org To unsubscribe from the_dojang-digest send the command: unsubscribe the_dojang-digest -or- unsubscribe the_dojang-digest your.old@address in the BODY (top line, left justified) of a "plain text" e-mail addressed to majordomo@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com. Old digest issues are available via ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com. Copyright 1994-2001: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource Standard disclaimers apply.