From: the_dojang-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com To: the_dojang-digest@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Subject: The_Dojang-Digest V8 #373 Reply-To: the_dojang@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Errors-To: the_dojang-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Precedence: The_Dojang-Digest Mon, 2 July 2001 Vol 08 : Num 373 In this issue: the_dojang: Re: Thanks the_dojang: The Fuzz the_dojang: Re: The_Dojang-Digest V8 #371 the_dojang: Character...a very simple question. the_dojang: RE: Mcdojo's (McDojangs) the_dojang: Re: McDojang the_dojang: "Thinking" and "not thinking" the_dojang: Combatives / re: to Rudy the_dojang: ITF World Championships -- Day 3 the_dojang: Grandma versus Training the_dojang: Bruce - PC & ROFL the_dojang: Various... the_dojang: Reason's for starting MA [none] the_dojang: Family versus Training the_dojang: LEO training the_dojang: . ========================================================================= The_Dojang, serving the Internet since June 1994. ~1111 members strong! Copyright 1994-2001: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource The premier internet discussion forum devoted to the Korean Martial Arts. Replying to this message will NOT unsubscribe you. To unsubscribe, send "unsubscribe the_dojang-digest" (no quotes) in the body (top line, left justified) of a "plain text" e-mail addressed to majordomo@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com. To send e-mail to this list use the_dojang@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com See the Korean Martial Arts (KMA) FAQ and the online search engine for back issues of The_Dojang at http://www.MartialArtsResource.com Pil Seung! ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: MissIllona@aol.com Date: Mon, 2 Jul 2001 14:13:41 EDT Subject: the_dojang: Re: Thanks In a message dated 7/2/2001 7:31:13 AM Pacific Daylight Time, the_dojang-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com writes: << My bi monthly check ups are done instead of the regular class we normally teach at that time, so no one needs to reschedule for a test. >> Ok ... I will just do my scheduling of classes so I can do this in a regular set time each month or two months then. Thanks, Rudy, ... this was a lot of help. And no, I have no programming knowledge ... way above my head. :-) Illona ------------------------------ From: mtomlins@mail.volusia.k12.fl.us Date: Mon, 2 Jul 2001 14:20:56 -0400 Subject: the_dojang: The Fuzz Hey I am not a policeman but I teach and know quite a few of them. They are just like any other profession, most of them are great people and a few of them are complete a__holes. I am a public school teacher and we get the same bad rap from john q public. "The public school system is in shambles and all of us teachers are inadequate and totally broke"!! Yeah I hear it too. One thing I think people should remember about the police and there sometimes synical attitude is that they very rarely deal with anyone on the job that is in a good mood! You only see the police when there is a problem. When was the last time you were sitting at home and having a great time and just figured you would dial 911 to let everyone know what a great day it is? They deal with people at their worst and this can lead them to be very pessimistic about the human race as a whole. I know teachers who are also very pessimistic about children,, it happens. Personally I am not, but I see it everyday. Just remember that when you are in trouble and you need help you don't run to the phone and call the pizza guy or the circus clown, you call a policeman, just think about that sometime. Michael Tomlinson ******************************************************************************* This email and any files transmitted with it are confidential and intended solely for the use of the individual or entity to whom they are addressed. If you have received this email in error please notify the system manager at administrator@volusia.k12.fl.us. ******************************************************************************* ------------------------------ From: Chereecharmello@aol.com Date: Mon, 02 Jul 2001 14:27:15 EDT Subject: the_dojang: Re: The_Dojang-Digest V8 #371 "Next, learn the form, not the room. Do it in all four directions, then do it at angles." Man, that is EXCELLENT advice. I wish someone would have said that to me when I began training. I remember, early on in my Tang Soo Do training, being invited to a "Women in the Martial Arts Demonstration." I stood in this enormous gym and realized I had never done my form without first bowing to the flags at the front of the dojang. I had to visualize the dojang just to fake the funk! After that experience, I praciticed in every direction! - -Cheree ------------------------------ From: "Craig Stovall" Date: Mon, 02 Jul 2001 14:22:37 -0500 Subject: the_dojang: Character...a very simple question. Here's something I have heard (in one form or another) thrown around martial arts discussions ever since I got involved some 16 years ago. It goes a l'il something like this..."Martial arts training builds character". Well, before I pose my question, let's take a quick look at how character is defined (at least by the Concise American Heritage Dictionary). Eight definitions are given, but numbers 2 and 3 seem to fit the particular attribute mentioned in the phrase, "Martial arts training builds character". 2. The moral or ethical structure of a person or group. 3. Moral strength; integrity. So here's my question...very simple: Does martial arts training really build chracter, and if so, how? Seriously, is this just something that's been repeated so many times that people have just begun to accept it as universal truth, or is there something inherent in martial arts training that truly yields "better" people? People that are morally and spiritually "superior", or "better developed" than the lay public who decides not to engage. Does this phenomenon reside in the physical side of the arts (endless kicking and punching, marathon kata sessions, extreme physical exertion, etc), or does it reside in the mental (concentration to detail, meditation, focus, mental toughness, etc)? In my opinion, this area is one of those proverbial "flowers" that we rarely stop and smell. Rather we just pass on by...confidently "knowing" that the flower is really there to be smelled anytime we see fit to do so...or is it? Craig "Still deporting myself as a moron" Stovall _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com ------------------------------ From: "Wallace, John" Date: Mon, 2 Jul 2001 12:18:02 -0700 Subject: the_dojang: RE: Mcdojo's (McDojangs) Hi Ellen: A McDojang is any TKD place besides the ones you and I train at. :) Its a straw-man construct used to describe an idealized (or antithetical, I guess) training environment where watered-down, lowest common denominator instruction takes place, and is designed to enrich the instructor/owner at all costs. Even a "traditional" curriculum can be derided with the term, as you could say its dogmatic; with the lack of independent thought and development indicating a degenerate dependency on authority...etc. You'd never describe the place you personally work out as a McDojang, nor would you (or should you, IMO) describe a friend's training center that way. Its just a term for rhetoric. As for a new person...well, you've hit on the crux of the problem. There IS no way for them to know. No one would ever refer to their own place that way, and any place that refers to their competition (so to speak) in that term would bear serious scrutiny (in my view) for use of a discourteous term. Later on, once you've gained some sophistication in the MA world, you may come to realize that the place you're training isn't as rigorous as you'd like, in which case I'd think your integrity should demand you move on. Thats a very tough decision though, considering the investment you've already made in the people and knowledge you've gained. Sincerely John Wallace 2nd gup, TKD ______________________________________________________________ From: Ellen P Date: Fri, 29 Jun 2001 07:04:38 -0700 (PDT) Subject: the_dojang: Mcdojo's Hello all - I'm curious to hear people on this list define a "Mcdojang"? And why are the places you train at/or run NOT "Mcdojang's"? And most importantly, how would someone just starting out in a MA such as TKD have any idea if they are training at a McDojang (especially when they have absolutely no prior knowledge of any MA's and may not be able to differeniate). I understand what is generally meant by this term on this list, but if anyone would like to indulge me further, it would be interesting to hear explanations/opinions about what is and what is not a Mcdojang. Thanks. EP ------------------------------ From: Piotr Bernat Date: Mon, 02 Jul 2001 20:19:33 +0200 Subject: the_dojang: Re: McDojang > We have had parents pull their kids out of our program because they were > upset that another child, who started at the same time, was progressing > faster. At a McDojang, all students, regardless of ability, receive their > belts at a predetermined pace. I still hear that thunderous applause at our recent grading when one of my young students graded to 5th Kup after being probably the most experienced green belt in the group ;) Another nice moment: we had a 14 years old boy who failed the 5th Kup twice. This year, he won three first places on our club championship and later placed third at the Polish Championships (light-contact) in his age category, losing to a very strong black belt opponent. After the fight was over, he just sat in the corner of the sports hall, looking very tired. He just gave his all. I came to him and announced: "Good news: you just passed your 5th Kup test". The look on his face was worth it all. Regards - -- Piotr Bernat dantaekwondo@lublin.home.pl http://www.taekwondo.prv.pl ------------------------------ From: "Damian Jones" Date: Mon, 02 Jul 2001 20:02:12 -0000 Subject: the_dojang: "Thinking" and "not thinking" Cheree and Bruce, Thanks for your opinions on poomse, this is one area that I am very interested in. I agree with you when you say that you need to think about it, but I think that there is a time when you need to look at it and think about what the techniques are and what applications they may have. I also think that the "no mind" approach (as mentioned by another poster) has its merits when performing the pattern. When learning a pattern (and once I have learned it) I go through and look at what the techniques are. I ask what peoples interpretations are and look for my own. One that my brother and I thought of relates to Koryo and is an alternative to the "knee break" interpretation. I do not think that anybody can stop learning when it comes to patterns, whether it be looking at how the body moves during techniques or looking at the interpretations of techniques and philosophy of the poomse as a whole. On a different note, I would be interested in hearing more on the practice of poomse in particular blindfolded, how can you focus on a technique if you cannot see the technique? One thing that I have done on several occasions is, position the class so that each person is facing a different direction (it helps if the class is small, or you have a large dojang!) we then perform a selected poomse. To make it more interesting we all do different poomse facing different directions. It certainly stops you looking to see what other people are doing! Damian Jones _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. ------------------------------ From: "TNT-Police Combatives ." Date: Mon, 02 Jul 2001 13:13:05 -0700 Subject: the_dojang: Combatives / re: to Rudy Greetings all, There are a number of 'softer' police control tactics systems nationwide that share the non-aggressive approach to suspect control. I have trained a number of officers that are certified instructors in some of those systems. I have found that although they can control the actively resistant suspect very well, their skills at controling an active violent assault are lacking. Not their fault, nobody showed them how. Most of the soft skills evaporate when the pucker factor increases...even in scenario simulations training. On the opposite side of the equation are systems that go a bit too far when there are less injurious methods and techniques that work. Nothing like a chop to the throat after a headbutt to the face followed by a crushing groin strike....jeez, some are WAY out there. As for PPCT (pressure point control tactics), the system is very good, and they are expanding their use of force training abilities. One of my fellow officers is a PPCT instructor, and he came to me to improve his skills in the higher risk areas. In my system, I try to have a bit of each, and really try to keep it simple. Students are tested in low risk, mild to active resistor situations, and in full speed, full contact scenarios. My instructors and I play the threats and will exploit any and all weaknesses that we find in students(that is the 'beat up the cops'time!) The training is goal-oriented and not technique specific, so it is somewhat tailor made to the officer and gives them usable tools instead of mandated techniques. If an officer can survive a fight with me, he is ready to go forth and tangle with crackheads and morons willing to fight someone armed with a club and gun. I think that there is a bit of a swing back to being more aggressive, but only due to the weak, touchyfeely crap that has been mandated in the past. It is important to be able to transition from soft to aggressive techniques...some trainers just don't provide it. Just as the soft styles of contol tactics became popular, so have the more aggressive ones...the hype soon dies down, and those trainers that are left will be teaching both. The move to more aggressive systems in some areas has been because some officer got their butt kicked using the other stuff. Like many things, knee-jerk reactionism happens. I encourage those interested to check out info sites from modernwarrior.com, ryan defense systems, PPCT, Hikestalkshoot.com, Tony Blauer's stuff, controlledforce.com, and my humble site at http://members.aol.com/tntcombatives/police.html. Most of our stuff looks and works the same...just different uniforms...kinda like TKD or HKD...it all good. Mark Gajdostik TNT-Police Combatives _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com ------------------------------ From: "Robert Martin" Date: Mon, 2 Jul 2001 14:44:48 -0600 Subject: the_dojang: ITF World Championships -- Day 3 7-2-01 Today was the first time that the team was able to practice. We rented a bus and went to the Palasport for a 1 1/2 hour "light" workout. It was great to see some of our friends from around the world. Team members put in a good work out. Each person focused on their area of specialty. This was the first time that all team members have been together. It was quite a site. This afternoon we spent some time site seeing. Rimini is a tourist town but it appears to be an Italian tourist town. Prices seem reasonable and the people are very helpful. They go out of their way to try English and seem to prefer that we not speak Italian (at least the young people try this). I finally made it down to the beech this evening after dinner (about 9:15 PM). It was beautiful. The sand is very fine and was not hot. In fact, the day wasn't very hot or humid. During the afternoon, Mr. Robyn Johnson (one of my roommates) and I took a walk along the main street and the street along the shore. As I have mentioned before, traffic is amazing. On a positive note, every one on a scooter or motor cycle wears a helmet. No body does on a bike. Cars weave in and out of traffic. The best way to cross the street is to just step out (at a cross walk) and go! Drivers will dodge around you or stop. Tomorrow, things start to happen. The team will have an early practice session. Then the coaches and officials meet. There is weigh in for the first fighters. On Wednesday, the first rounds of individual patterns take place (1st, 2nd, 3rd and 4th Dan). We also have the first sparring rounds. I hope to get lots of pictures then. Visit www.maestastkd.com and click on the World Championship banner for them. Until next time, Taekwon, Robert Martin A-4-336 ------------------------------ From: "Patrick L" Date: Mon, 02 Jul 2001 15:15:43 -0700 Subject: the_dojang: Grandma versus Training Dear Greg G (and others that share like thoughts) >This statement sounds very representative of a cult, not a karate class.... >It is imposing an instructors value system not just on a student and their >performance in the dojang, but on the whole of their lives. That's a very >dangerous area. Greg G< My art ends in DO. I do not consider my actions simply teaching a "karate class". I am an example of a WAY of living (more so than the general populace). I encourage my "students" to share my basic values; In general most already do, but lack direction in application. Some don't - I change them or lose them. I submit it is more dangerous to society and the Martial Arts to do otherwise. Did you notice how some respondents had no trouble making value judgments about that which they think represents a "cult" (read "not like their") value system. And yes I purposefully left open the "judgment" of right and wrong. I hope that resulted in some enjoyment - but I did offer my "position" in a subsequent post. Getting in the Way, Patrick _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com ------------------------------ From: "Patrick L" Date: Mon, 02 Jul 2001 15:24:09 -0700 Subject: the_dojang: Bruce - PC & ROFL Dear Bruce, >considerably less PC.< I was rolling on the floor laughing while reading your post. Just thought I would post you a positive note - I am sure you will get plenty of the others. Getting in the WAY, Patrick _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com ------------------------------ From: J Thomas Howard Date: Mon, 2 Jul 2001 17:49:54 -0500 (CDT) Subject: the_dojang: Various... Bruce.Sims@med.va.gov wrote: > BTW: I got $5 that says its not possible to hit a child molester hard > enough to put blood in his urine. :-) Speaking as someone who works in a state penitentiary, I'll take that. (And you can send it to me right now, since I was posted in the Pen Hospital the day after one got tagged. Bled for a week.) Anyway---note on LEOs/training/reality: When I read the first note that started this LEO part, it seemed to me that the person was asking the intelligence of teaching krav maga's "attack attack attack" mentality and physical actions to a LEO. As opposed to teaching effective self-defense to a LEO. Big difference---many departments in the US wouldn't teach anything like Krav Maga, because as someone has already mentioned, it is an invitation to a lifetime of lawsuits. Now, I'm all for LEOs learning self-defense, of whatever type is effective for them. However, for departmental restraint/hold/cuffnstuff? Nope. Different type of training is needed. (Noting for "ratpack" purposes----it generally is much easier to subdue someone without injuring them if you outnumber them 5 to one. Every correctional officer in the US [well, probably every one] knows that. When you send in a team for a use of force, you plan it 5-to-1. That way, you can pack them, and no one gets hurt.) And now back to Korean arts...went to Davenport IA the other week, and was looking at martial arts dojangs for a student of mine that moved. We were trying a find a decent place for her to practice. We've come to the conclusion that no one breathes in the Quad Cities. :) We went to four classes (1 TKD, 1 karate, 1 Hapkido, and 1 Kuk Sool Won) and no one had any breath control during applications. Not meaning they had no breathing, meaning they didn't breath at all in a controlled fashion during technique. Now, the Kuk Sool Won place impressed me other than that (though the other three didn't At All---the hapkido style especially---and I'm a hapkidoist) - ----but anyone else run into this type of thing often? I mean, once in awhile is going to happen---but four different places? (Apologizes to anyone from the Quad Cities---I don't _really_ mean that no one breathes during applications there---we just didn't happen to meet any. :) Thomas - ------------------------------------ thomcat@binary.net http://www.binary.net/thomcat/Hap.html "If you aren't modeling what you are teaching then you are teaching something else." ------------------------------ From: "Patrick L" Date: Mon, 02 Jul 2001 15:53:34 -0700 Subject: the_dojang: Reason's for starting MA All, I keep hearing this statement - offered by many different sources - I just wondered if anyone else shares my skepticism? >People begin martial arts for a wide variety of reasons.< IMNSHO ALL adults begin in MA for one reason - insecurity. Since insecurity is such an embarrassing point, I think people tag on other side issues - weight, fitness, looking for Mr. Goodbar, etc. I was wondering what other "long timers" thought. I am interested in considered viewpoints. While ruminating on your response, if the best you have to offer is something along the line of "obviously that was your reason" - duh - that is a given. It took me a long time to realize it though. Getting in the WAY, Patrick _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com ------------------------------ From: "rich hodder" Date: Mon, 02 Jul 2001 23:00:50 Subject: [none] Dear Mr. Dodge, I have met and talked extensively with Mr. Oulette and while he is opinionated on some matters, I can guarantee he is not like most of the "holier that thou cops" at least the ones in my neck of the woods. Jack is simply adament about the things he believes in and is a Former Marine (OORAH). Rich _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com ------------------------------ From: "Patrick L" Date: Mon, 02 Jul 2001 16:15:20 -0700 Subject: the_dojang: Family versus Training All, >It is right to put family before training.< I have seen many posts with this concept in it, I would like to offer some alternative thinking! Why is it so many people put things into conflict that are not - Why do so many chose to set up a straw man to bolster a weak argument? Think about it; Do you only train when your family LETS you? Are you spineless? No of course not! If a person is SO worried about their family; I suggest they turn off their computers, burn their gis, and quit their jobs. Maybe then they can provide the attention their words portend. Barring that, I recommend balance. Getting in the WAY, Patrick _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com ------------------------------ From: Ray Terry Date: Mon, 02 Jul 2001 16:54:48 PDT Subject: the_dojang: LEO training Just something to submit from Kalifornia-land. Many of the LEOs out here firmly believe that their departments are far more concerned with training their officers how to avoid liability law suits than in training them how to stay alive and healthy on the job. Ray Terry raymail@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com ------------------------------ From: Ray Terry Date: Mon, 02 Jul 2001 16:56:26 PDT Subject: the_dojang: . ------------------------------ End of The_Dojang-Digest V8 #373 ******************************** It's a great day for Taekwondo! Support the USTU by joining today. US Taekwondo Union, 1 Olympic Plaza, Ste 104C, Colorado Spgs, CO 80909 719-578-4632 FAX 719-578-4642 ustutkd1@aol.com http://www.ustu.org To unsubscribe from the_dojang-digest send the command: unsubscribe the_dojang-digest -or- unsubscribe the_dojang-digest your.old@address in the BODY (top line, left justified) of a "plain text" e-mail addressed to majordomo@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com. Old digest issues are available via ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com. Copyright 1994-2001: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource Standard disclaimers apply.