From: the_dojang-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com To: the_dojang-digest@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Subject: The_Dojang-Digest V8 #376 Reply-To: the_dojang@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Errors-To: the_dojang-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Precedence: The_Dojang-Digest Tues, 3 July 2001 Vol 08 : Num 376 In this issue: the_dojang: re: audible breathing the_dojang: Uniform sales the_dojang: hyperventilating vs heavy exertion the_dojang: Re: The_Dojang-Digest V8 #373 the_dojang: RE: Giri & On the_dojang: audible breathing the_dojang: Mac & Fries the_dojang: demo ideas the_dojang: Musical Forms the_dojang: What other dojang are doing the_dojang: Ban on Traditional Measurement the_dojang: Re: The_Dojang-Digest V8 #374 the_dojang: 45 degree angle forms the_dojang: Re: The_Dojang-Digest V8 #372 the_dojang: Re: The_Dojang-Digest V8 #373 the_dojang: Re: The_Dojang-Digest V8 #373 the_dojang: . ========================================================================= The_Dojang, serving the Internet since June 1994. ~1111 members strong! Copyright 1994-2001: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource The premier internet discussion forum devoted to the Korean Martial Arts. Replying to this message will NOT unsubscribe you. To unsubscribe, send "unsubscribe the_dojang-digest" (no quotes) in the body (top line, left justified) of a "plain text" e-mail addressed to majordomo@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com. To send e-mail to this list use the_dojang@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com See the Korean Martial Arts (KMA) FAQ and the online search engine for back issues of The_Dojang at http://www.MartialArtsResource.com Pil Seung! ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Melissa Lambton" Date: Tue, 3 Jul 2001 16:24:44 +0100 Subject: the_dojang: re: audible breathing John, The subject of audible breathing was mentioned at a recent ITF TKD seminar in Budapest with General Choi, Hong Hi (the founder of taekwon do). General Choi instructed that in TKD, all movements finish together. That includes dropping the body weight from the sine wave motion, finishing the movement (punch, block, etc) and finishing the breathing with a short sharp exhalation. This sharp exhalation is audible but depends on the person doing it. The General says that it helps to tense all of the muscles on the exact moment of impact so that the technique is more powerful. Hope this helps. Tae kwon. Melissa 1st degree > From: "john sodihlhxh" > Date: Mon, 02 Jul 2001 22:19:42 -0500 > Subject: the_dojang: audible breathing > > << >had no breathing, meaning they didn't breath at all in a controlled > >fashion during technique. > >>>> > > on this subject im curious how the "list"ers feel about audible breathing. > I have seen many martial artist practice a loud breathing method during > poomse. You can hear them blow air out for every punch or block. Do you > like this? Not like it? have an explanation for it? > I personally have been taught to breath normally without making any > addititonal sound other than the normal sounds of breathing. not to say > that you cant hear my breathing during hard rounds in the ring or on a bag. > > thanks > Bill Evans > ------------------------------ From: "Sawyer, Mark D., M.D." Date: Tue, 3 Jul 2001 10:30:43 -0500 Subject: the_dojang: Uniform sales One more thought on the uniform purchase issue. In many different kinds of business, it's pretty common practice to distribute costs. For example, at your local burger joint, a soft drink is a VERY high profit margin item, while items like hamburgers have a much lower margin. This is done to distribute things over a range of prices the consumer finds palatable, reasonable, and "fair". In a dojang, what is the instructor's time worth, exactly? Is it reasonable for a dojang owner to distribute his profit margins a bit? Sure. Would class cost need to rise if the profit margin were totally taken out of the uniform and other purchase items? Most probably. With the exception of Buddhist temples, I think it's fair to say that a large proportion of dojangs are indeed a business, and not just something done because the sabumnim feels a need to pass on their art. No reason they shouldn't use a common, ethical business practice. On a second note, to whomever said that all adults start martial arts because of insecurity: in my case, at least, that's nonsense. I began TKD to have another activity I could do with my kids (also teaching them to cook), who take TKD with me, increase my flexibility, start a new goal and challenge in my life. I was always attracted to the grace and power of the martial arts, and I wanted my kids to build their self-confidence and health. I'm 6'6", about 235 pounds (not fat) - now, that means very little to martial artists of course, but I personally haven't felt threatened by anyone since about the 8th grade. Also, I'm a surgeon (read: inordinate self-confidence - if anything, it should be trimmed down, not built up). :-) // mark ...can't sleep, clowns will eat me... can't sleep, clowns will eat me... can't sleep, clowns will eat me... ------------------------------ From: Mary Braud Date: Tue, 03 Jul 2001 10:31:51 -0500 Subject: the_dojang: hyperventilating vs heavy exertion If you're talking about the forced "whoosh" that some people do with every movement during poomse, then I really don't like it. I call it 'fake snap'. Some people don't want to put forth the effort to make their uniform snap, so they exhale loudly to mask their lack of snap. You will notice that at the end of the poomse, these kind of people are not really out of breath, but may be a little lightheaded from all that forced breathing. Now, there are some people who put SO much effort forth into their poomse that it literally takes their breath away. This kind of breathing is a good problem to have since it shows that you are really trying, and just need to learn to master your breathing. These kind of people are usually panting heavily and sweating profusely at the end of their poomse. Bottom line--the first example drives me crazy, but the second example I completely understand and empathize with---I used to be just like that. Now I have better control of my breathing, but I still rely heavily on my Secret! :-) Regards, Mary Mr.Evans wrote: > on this subject im curious how the "list"ers feel about audible breathing. > I have seen many martial artist practice a loud breathing method during > poomse. You can hear them blow air out for every punch or block. Do you > like this? Not like it? have an explanation for it? ------------------------------ From: Chereecharmello@aol.com Date: Tue, 3 Jul 2001 11:36:34 EDT Subject: the_dojang: Re: The_Dojang-Digest V8 #373 << And most importantly, how would someone just starting out in a MA such as TKD have any idea if they are training at a McDojang >> If you find yourself in any environment where you are not challenged, then it's not a true MA experience. Some "Mc Dojangs" will still offer quality and motivational experiences. Just be leary of circumstances where you feel you are not ready to test but you seem to be forced into it. - -Cheree ------------------------------ From: Bruce.Sims@med.va.gov Date: Tue, 3 Jul 2001 10:43:06 -0500 Subject: the_dojang: RE: Giri & On Dear Jeremy: "..... In there the author talks about a thing called 'on (ohn)'. This is a kind of a debt that we owe to those who help us. When we pay our instructors for our lessons, we are merely paying a fee to keep the doors open and the lights on in the dojang. However what they give back to us, assuming they are credible teachers, we can never repay....." One of the very interesting concepts that I am picking up from GM Koo is that the Korean society has a very different take on the concept of being a teacher. In the minds of Western individuals, a teacher is, more often or not, someone who provides a discrete amount of information over a specified period of time and is duly compensated for same. GM Koo has given me to understand that a teacher in the Korean sense--- and perhaps be extension, in the Oriental sense--- is closer to what we in the West would call a "mentor". In this way, when one seeks out a teacher and is accepted under that person's tutelage, education comes on a variety of planes and through a range of medium. The relationship is an on-going one which can go on for a couple of months, years or decades depending on the nature of the relationship. Hearing it presented this way, I have revised my thinking, and would encourage others to do the same. Hearing it defined in this manner, I don't think its possible to continue to characterize teachers of Korean martial tradition as simple conduits for passing the same X number of techniques from one point in time to another. A true teacher touches us in many ways, draws out the best we have to offer and shows us how to do the same for ourselves and others. The reason I am going on at such length about this, Jeremy, is your use of the Japanese term "on" as distinct from the term "giri". Giri (obligation) is an indebiture as a result of some service a person performs for us. If somebody opens a door for us, we are obliged to say thank you. You might not, but then you risk sanctions from society which mark you as rude or anti-social. People are expected to honor their obligations and its something MA teach us--- to be people of honor. On is an obligation which can never be repaid. Parents incur an obligation to their children for bearing and raising them that can never be paid back. I suspect that we in the West continue to see teachers as someone to whom we owe Giri when in fact we owe On and I think this is where you came in, Jeremy. Please know that I am not talking about GM Joe whose local McDochang is rated #1 in the nation by WHO CARES? Magazine. To this guy you owe giri and when you pay it off, its paid off. On the other hand, a teacher who is someone you want to emulate, whose advice you seek out, whose judgement in life questions you value and whose teaching skills show you how to bring out the best in yourself is someone to whom you owe On. These guys don't turn up like moss on the side of every tree. They are hard to find and a treasure to know--- not because they say so, but because others say it about them. Throwing money at these people and expecting that it absolves you of your responsibility to them may be typically American. I believe it is also a sure sign that you have learned very little about being a person of honor. In the last few weeks we have had some exchanges about "what is a McDochang" or "what is the difference between learning fighting and MA. My thought is that MA will teach you how to feel "giri" and feel "on" and know how to deal with it. But don't get all nervous if you don't know what I'm talking about. As I heard one person say once, when it comes to giri or on--- if you don't feel it; you don't have it. Best Wishes, Bruce ------------------------------ From: "Dennis McHenry" Date: Tue, 3 Jul 2001 10:44:17 -0500 Subject: the_dojang: audible breathing From: "john sodihlhxh" <> I just don't like the simulated/fake breathing. I can see where beginners have a problem breathing at first and coordination their breath control with their movements. Maybe in teaching them to make a sound with each movement helps them through this, but not to continue this practice beyond the basic levels. I saw a MA forms competition on TV the other night (ESPN). Many/most of the competitors would kihap at every move, actually scream their heads off. I noticed I sure don't like that either. Mac ________________________________________________________________ Sent via the EV1 webmail system at mail.ev1.net ------------------------------ From: Charles Richards Date: Tue, 3 Jul 2001 08:50:35 -0700 (PDT) Subject: the_dojang: Mac & Fries <> If I AM THE MAC and I do a fund raiser for Ronald McDonald House am I a McDojang? MACin and lovin' those fries! Charles R. P.S. I have the honor of Master Mac's signature on my 4th Dan certificate.....FAR from a McDojang, but proud to have trained with the founder of MacDojangs :-) __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get personalized email addresses from Yahoo! Mail http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/ ------------------------------ From: "paul moloney" Date: Tue, 3 Jul 2001 19:28:14 -0700 Subject: the_dojang: demo ideas I have been asked to put on a demo for a local school , we hope to start a do jang there for the school if we get enough interest ( this is a good option to set up a free school !! ), the problem I have is we are a bit short on demo pieces for the junior/ pee wee members to do . so far we have bong forms (2) ,self defence (4) and group forms (2), has any one got any ideas for breaks set pieces etc bearing in mind the oldest person in the demo will be 11 years old thanks Paul webmaster@tgi-tangsoodo.co.uk www.tgi-tangsoodo.co.uk ------------------------------ From: Charles Richards Date: Tue, 3 Jul 2001 09:07:22 -0700 (PDT) Subject: the_dojang: Musical Forms <<> I saw a rather disturbing display at a recent tournament. > > Do any DD members have an opinion on "Musical Forms?" They look great if somebody knows the game. I saw some amazing demonstrations recently on several martial arts shows. Lot of spins, acrobatic movements, triple kicks in the air. Fantastic display of skill. But, on the other hand... I still prefer musical forms done by people like Jean Frenette or John Chung. Strong stances, solid techniques and a certain "something" that in my opinion lacks in many today`s performances. Just IMHO. - - -- Piotr Bernat>> Let's not forget my first instructor Charlie Lee (Circa 1985-87) and his "Twighlight Zone" musical form :-) Yes, in the last Battle of Atlanta I attended the night finalists that did musical forms where phenominal performers (don't know if they can spar). Several of the younger dans in the "Korean" division with me were also very acrobatic...and of course there where the folks that added music to average forms performances... Regards, Charles R. Moja Kwan TSD __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get personalized email addresses from Yahoo! Mail http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/ ------------------------------ From: "jere-hilland" Date: Tue, 3 Jul 2001 10:38:31 -0400 Subject: the_dojang: What other dojang are doing In the tri-state area I am in, McDojang are everywhere. These schools do not want to retain students. They rely on having a new student sign a contract, pay the joining fee and then dropping out. That way they are getting payments from more students than the dojang will actually hold. When I opened up this dojang my teacher's first remark was "do not advertise for other MA schools". We now advertise that we do not have joining fees or contracts, that we rely on student retention, and that we are open from 8 am till 9 pm M-F and for 5 hours on Saturdays so the student can attend the classes they want, not when they have to. Students are therefore able to attend class around the families schedule and not have the family schedule events around class times. This way we are providing a 'value added service to the community' and we are often asked to provide public demonstrations, etc. On another note, I am always asked "how long till my black belt?" This is a tough question to be asked when recruiting a potential student. My answer is usually a non-answer as I usually state that it depends on how much effort and time the student puts in, but I tell them that the average is 3-5 years if they are very persistent. Last week a taekwondo 1st dan came in and discussed this topic. He was upset because his taekwondo teacher told him it would take him only 4 months to get a black belt in a new art. I then introduced him to one of my blue belts who has been with me for about 2 years who holds a 1st dan from the kukkiwon. They had a long talk... Jere R. Hilland www.geocities.com/hapkiyukwonsul ------------------------------ From: Ray Terry Date: Tue, 03 Jul 2001 10:14:20 PDT Subject: the_dojang: Ban on Traditional Measurement Anyone know how far a Li is? And how it (supposedly?) fits in with MDK tradition? Forwarding... Ban on Traditional Measurement Units to Be Delayed July 3, 2001 Ministry of Commerce, Industry and Energy The Ministry of Commerce, Industry and Energy announced Tuesday (July 3) that it was postponing the enforcement of a ban on the use of traditional Korean measuring units. The ban was scheduled to go into effect July 1. At the end of last year, in an effort to encourage the use metric system, the ministry announced that it would impose a fine of up to one million won ($770) on those who violate the ban. The move is aimed at expanding the use of international measurements because the widespread use of traditional units such as 'pyong' and 'ja' frequently causes great inconvenience and misunderstanding in commercial transactions. For the past six months, the ministry has conducted various publicity campaigns that included television and radio advertisements, placards, leaflets and a contest to design a slogan and poster to promote the use of the international system of units. As a result, citizens have become aware of the problems that arise from using standard measuring units; however, a survey of commercial transactions conducted by the ministry revealed that the use of the conventional measuring units persists among merchants as well as in commercial transactions, manufacturing facilities and farms, while awareness of the punitive measures was low. The ministry said that because enforcing the ban on schedule would cause a great deal of inconvenience, it decided, instead, to continue with the public campaign for the time being. ------------------------------ From: Beungood@aol.com Date: Tue, 03 Jul 2001 13:34:28 EDT Subject: the_dojang: Re: The_Dojang-Digest V8 #374 <<<<<<,I used to teach Leos in a high intensity manner similar to KM; however, a decade or so ago we were suddenly and rather abruptly told that we needed to change our system to be much softer. I'd like to be a bit more prepared this time around. As an old dog, the new tricks need a bit of time.>>>>>>. This is the problem with DT being taught in the academies nowadays. They teach it in the intial training then never reinforce it or what they do teach is being approved by beaurocrats worried about liability than officer safety. I think they would much rather pay out a death benefit to a guy's family than fight a winnable junk lawsuit. Training is most often a joke and if anything teaches enough to get an Officer in dire straights. Last time through in service training,LMAO,we had an instructor actually teach a crane stance for some combatives. It was at this point he lost most of the students.. JAck ------------------------------ From: J T Date: Tue, 3 Jul 2001 10:37:26 -0700 (PDT) Subject: the_dojang: 45 degree angle forms This concept is very helpful. I have done this to help improve my forms as well as other student's forms. After I have a good concept on direction and technique of the form, I will do the form with my eyes shut. You would be amazed how you will end up facing a direction you never thought possible in the form. After I get that down, I move to doing the form facing different angles. It is frustrating but it does help. After that do the different angles with your eyes shut. If you want to have some fun in your kids class, have them do this individually in front of the other kids. They all get a kick (pardon the pun), out of it. Jeremy __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get personalized email addresses from Yahoo! Mail http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/ ------------------------------ From: Beungood@aol.com Date: Tue, 03 Jul 2001 13:47:31 EDT Subject: the_dojang: Re: The_Dojang-Digest V8 #372 << Date: Mon, 2 Jul 2001 10:48:50 -0500 Subject: the_dojang: Re: The_Dojang-Digest V8 #371 Mr. Ouellette, From the tone of your letter I'd say you have the same outlook on the world that every other cop I've ever met whether through them doing their job or in a social atmosphere and that is "Well I'm right because I'm a cop and I know everything and you're wrong because you're not a cop" >>>> Danny, I never claimed to know it all about the job only pointed out that which was written that I dis-agreed with. As far as the"most cops know it all" Alot of the public thinks that when they are caught up in something involving the police and do not like the outcome or what the cop is telling them. "I wasn't speeding " "I didnt know i was speeding " there is no sign showing speed limit" What right do you have to tell me to leave?" This is public property" Ie .. <> We never liked the shows as they sensationalize and distort what actually happens. That is the rpoblem, most people like to second guess or question Police officers while in the performance of thier service calls not realizing the law or being ignorant of it. Alot of calls that result in arrests we really didnt want to make in the first place arise from people questioning our right to be there or to tell them what to do. It's usually the Holy-er-then-thou attitude you affect when answering the questions that makes people disrespect officers. i.e. your quote "Well at least we know the basis of your knowledge." Couldn't you have tried to put that in friendlier terms, maybe by first asking if these shows were the only source of information the person was drawing on to make his overall conclusion that cops "like" to play dogpile on a prone suspect? >>> I might have asked in a friendlier tone or he could have provided his experience for us all. If these shows actually filmed what it's really like it would be mostly using verbal skills to resolve confrontation and trying to stay awake at night through mostly routine boredom and patrol with a sprinkle of excitement. Again my two cents, Jack ouellette <<< ------------------------------ From: Beungood@aol.com Date: Tue, 03 Jul 2001 14:00:18 EDT Subject: the_dojang: Re: The_Dojang-Digest V8 #373 <<<<>>>> The attack attack mentality should be a component of self defense skills. There should be good realistic self defense training given initially in the academy and then reiforced perodically along with firearms training and CPR. As far as the atraining teaching aggression , no training will bring it on or eliminate it. The aggression is what is inside the Officer's head. Hopefully the department would hav screened out such an individual with the psych tests and interviews. I agree with most departments worried about lawsuits and taching KM. But they are even more worried about overtime money involved with covering the officers being trained/re-trained in DT shift while they are gone. They would rather spend money on citizens police academies and flashy paint jobs on the marked units thatn good solid comprehensive training. They dont seem to realize the liability in lackluster or inneffective traing programs. This is something we talk about quite often. There should be a range of techniques taught to officers working the street to give them the tools to survive a lethal confrontation (and they are all lethal with the chance of the Officer's gun being stripped)There are times when restraint and hold techniques are warranted ,and there are moments when more brutal and "attack oriented" skills are needed. my opionion.... Jack ouellette ------------------------------ From: Beungood@aol.com Date: Tue, 03 Jul 2001 14:01:57 EDT Subject: the_dojang: Re: The_Dojang-Digest V8 #373 Rich wrote:simply adament about the things he believes in and is a Former Marine (OORAH). Rich >> Semper fi! Jacko ------------------------------ From: Ray Terry Date: Tue, 03 Jul 2001 13:01:47 PDT Subject: the_dojang: . ------------------------------ End of The_Dojang-Digest V8 #376 ******************************** It's a great day for Taekwondo! Support the USTU by joining today. US Taekwondo Union, 1 Olympic Plaza, Ste 104C, Colorado Spgs, CO 80909 719-578-4632 FAX 719-578-4642 ustutkd1@aol.com http://www.ustu.org To unsubscribe from the_dojang-digest send the command: unsubscribe the_dojang-digest -or- unsubscribe the_dojang-digest your.old@address in the BODY (top line, left justified) of a "plain text" e-mail addressed to majordomo@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com. Old digest issues are available via ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com. Copyright 1994-2001: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource Standard disclaimers apply.