From: the_dojang-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com To: the_dojang-digest@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Subject: The_Dojang-Digest V8 #382 Reply-To: the_dojang@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Errors-To: the_dojang-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Precedence: The_Dojang-Digest Fri, 6 July 2001 Vol 08 : Num 382 In this issue: the_dojang: Re: demo ideas the_dojang: Re: The_Dojang-Digest V8 #372 the_dojang: Re:Thanks, but "No Thanks" the_dojang: Re: Ridiculous the_dojang: Re: Park Workout the_dojang: Re: Police Training the_dojang: the_dojang re:TSD issues the_dojang: Redfield's Post the_dojang: Sudden reduction in training the_dojang: Forms the_dojang: Re: The_Dojang-Digest V8 #381 the_dojang: Natural Way the_dojang: . ========================================================================= The_Dojang, serving the Internet since June 1994. ~1111 members strong! Copyright 1994-2001: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource The premier internet discussion forum devoted to the Korean Martial Arts. 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To send e-mail to this list use the_dojang@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com See the Korean Martial Arts (KMA) FAQ and the online search engine for back issues of The_Dojang at http://www.MartialArtsResource.com Pil Seung! ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: David Beck Date: Thu, 5 Jul 2001 12:28:38 -0500 (CDT) Subject: the_dojang: Re: demo ideas >From: "paul moloney" >Date: Tue, 3 Jul 2001 19:28:14 -0700 >Subject: the_dojang: demo ideas > >I have been asked to put on a demo for a local school , we hope to start a >do jang there for the school if we get enough interest ( this is a good >option to set up a free school !! ), the problem I have is we are a bit >short on demo pieces for the junior/ pee wee members to do . >so far we have bong forms (2) ,self defence (4) and group forms (2), has >any one got any ideas for breaks set pieces etc bearing in mind the oldest >person in the demo will be 11 years old > >thanks Paul I think demos don't necessarily have to have all the background music, special effects like the apple breaking apart, etc. For this target audience especially, keep it simple. Have your students do almost everything, only do 1 or 2 things yourself; and have them do things they do every day in class. That way they are less nervous about performing, chances are they'll perform better and look like they're enjoying it; and the concept comes across to the target audience that 'Hey! I could do that! That looks like fun!'. David N. Beck, WATT Lead Engineer Internet: David.Beck@usa.alcatel.com Phone: 972-519-3103 Address: MS TAND1, 1000 Coit Road, Plano, Texas 75075 ** Opinions expressed are not those of Alcatel USA ** ------------------------------ From: Beungood@aol.com Date: Thu, 05 Jul 2001 16:29:45 EDT Subject: the_dojang: Re: The_Dojang-Digest V8 #372 Hi back Rudy <<<. The tone of your letter says it all. If you get this pumped up by a simple question supported by some observations, I'd hate to see your control in action. Relax Jack. Its a nice holiday, enjoy it :-)>>> Pumped up? I simply stated a rebuttal to your post. I take objection to some of the things you have said. I have great control as if I didnt I would be signing my posts former "police officer wrongly fired".... Was a nice one and I did. << As far as cruisers getting in eache others way, it's unaviodable as chases are > dynamic constantly changing events. the use of alot of cars aids in > creating a rolling road block to slow and shut down the highway in the > event the purp crashes. Take another look at the famous (infamous) OJ scene Jack :)>>> I did, they were chasing a felony Murder suspect. Police are required to use the least force necessary to stop the threat....or else BIG lawsuits happen. Hi Mark. Thanks for a decent reply. Some time ago, there was a big push to eliminate excessive force. In fact, it was the reason for the birth of PPCT. Is there, in your opinion, a swing back to more agression? << The overlying factor in training is Overtime and liability. Around here they are worried about the length of training and covering the manpower that is offshift and they do not want to teach much in fear of someone creating a court situation for thier department. From what I have seen they are getting away from joint locking and PPCT and focusing more on striking . they say they want to teach things that you dont have to practice to retain. jack ------------------------------ From: "Bruce Sims" Date: Thu, 5 Jul 2001 13:59:39 -0500 Subject: the_dojang: Re:Thanks, but "No Thanks" Dear Bernard and Richard: "..... Why is this directed at me? Are you a member of the MDK History Committee or something? What is your official interest in this? Or are you just trying to violate the DD with the bickering from the Warrior-Scholar site?....." Changed my mind. I think I have seen this movie before. Seems to be way too much energy associated with this topic to get the kind of objective information I was looking for. No offense, but I think I choose to remain under-informed on this particular topic rather than be responsible for encouraging strife where none is needed. Note to Ray: Does DD have background on the personalities/arts involved? Best Wishes, Bruce ------------------------------ From: MissIllona@aol.com Date: Thu, 5 Jul 2001 15:55:38 EDT Subject: the_dojang: Re: Ridiculous In a message dated 7/5/2001 10:24:52 AM Pacific Daylight Time, the_dojang-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com writes: << One woman performed a knife form to a very disturbing Marilyn Manson (spelling?) song in which she trashed around like Reagan from the Exorcist. >> You haven't seen anything yet till you've seen this one woman in a sports bra with handwraps on in stars and stripes baggie pants doing fast standstill jogging and short upper cuts with her arms/hands ... it really got the top to jiggling up and up down ... this is martial arts musical forms ? We saw at an Ed Parker Tournament (I am sure Ed Parker rolled over in his grave when he saw this !) two men pretending to be on surf boards (yes, surf boards !) doing this so called form to music ... and one guy dressed up as a wolf doing a form/skit. The surfer boys beat out a woman who did a beautiful regular form !!!!!! The judges got booed big time ... and I haven't been back to that tournament since that time ! Beyond Ridiculous ! I find regular forms to be beautiful in themselves when done with power and grace and excellent timing. Illona ------------------------------ From: MissIllona@aol.com Date: Thu, 5 Jul 2001 15:57:39 EDT Subject: the_dojang: Re: Park Workout In a message dated 7/5/2001 10:24:52 AM Pacific Daylight Time, the_dojang-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com writes: << I have the hardest time working out in shoes, even those little, flat MA type with the pivot points...That's a good idea, I seem to lose my footing easily on surfaces other than wood... >> We've been meeting in the local park every other Saturday (early in the morning when it is cool) ... doing forms for 45 min. to an hour. We wear regular clothing and shoes. We had 15 students from the age of 5 on up to adult doing this ... they loved it ! Illona ------------------------------ From: "Daremo and Kitsune" Date: Wed, 04 Jul 2001 10:35:44 -0500 Subject: the_dojang: Re: Police Training I think Bruce has made a very important point. While the jujutsu arts (I don't know Krav Maga from anything other than reputation and the Discovery Channel piece a while back) appear to have techniques that fit into any situation an LEO may run into, I don't think that they really promote the officer to be, in at least Minnesota terminology, a "Peace Officer." Now I'm not saying that an LEO shouldn't have all the training possible to protect themselves and others in any situation that arises. What I am saying is that the perceived attitude of the art used for defensive tactics may affect the strategies employed by the officer. Maybe with its only the way in which officers are trained in the techniques but it can seem that there is a very fast rise to "need" a use of force and that there isn't enough technique taught at the levels before this. I'll admit that I'm biased toward Aikido for LEO training. To me it provides a greater range of techniques (not only physical). By applying some of the strategies before physical techniques are necessary, use of force may be prevented and the situation dealt with. My viewpoints come from 14 years in the security industry including working on college campuses. My current position has me working in a student population of 3,000 - 6,000 daily where there are 30 different languages spoken by students and in the heart of downtown Minneapolis, very urban attitude to say the least. Thanks for allowing the rant. Rob >From: Bruce.Sims@med.va.gov >Date: Tue, 3 Jul 2001 16:08:44 -0500 >Subject: the_dojang: RE:Police Training > > >Dear Jack: > > Pgs 19 to 54 are an overview of characteristics of jujutsu arts and >I am >continually struck at the many references to a clear delineation between >tactics for combat and self-defense versus tactics for subduing and >restraining, and the time frame cited by the author is back about 400 years. >I mention this because it seems to be a border-area that is being blurred in >the discussion. If even 400 years ago somebody figured out that techniques >for restraint and techniques of neutralizing an opponent may need to be very >different kinds of techniques, doesn't that tell us something about what LEO >should be learning versus what they should not be studying? I don't know >from K-M, but it sounds like it really has less to do with restraint and >subduing than with cancelling an attackers' check. Now the real reason that >I have taken time to state this chunk of "obvious" is because I am likewise >hearing people characterize LE and LEO responses with the same simplistic >reasoning with which I am hearing them suggest training models for the >officers. >Keep fightin' the good fight, Jack. > >Best Wishes, >Bruce Robert Frankovich Tiger Consulting Senior Trainer 4th Dan AAU Taekwondo 4th Dan Song Moo Kwan Taekwondo 2nd Dan Seidokan Aikido www.tigerconsulting.org "There's more to balance than not falling over." Michael Angier ------------------------------ From: "teepee" Date: Thu, 5 Jul 2001 16:09:37 -0600 Subject: the_dojang: the_dojang re:TSD issues "... I am confused..." You're not the only one (actually I'm not that confused, but I understand your position). As a Kuk Sool Won practitioner in Canada, I have read with amusement In Hyuk Suh's claims of being the originator of the art. Having a grandmaster in Korea who trained with In Hyuk, we have heard our own version of events of the beginnings of Kuk Sool; that being that In Hyuk broke away from the rest of the original Kuk Sool members to form his own assoc. with the claims that he formed his own art after studying 31(!) arts to the level of mastery. Comparing our own curriculum and style of movements/techniques/patterns/stances, it is easy to see how he was able to expand so easily. His version is a much more watered down form of Kuk Sool. Anyways, I understand your position. ------------------------------ From: "Master Frank Clay" Date: Thu, 5 Jul 2001 19:06:14 -0400 Subject: the_dojang: Redfield's Post Mr. Redfield, I am the webmaster of the Korea Tang Soo Do Moo Duk Kwan Society's web page. It is true that I asked for any assistance in researching the history of TSD from the "experts" at warrior-scholar. They have refused on several occasions to provide any verifiable sources... however the KTMS has provided some. Not only that, but they have stooped to name calling and other juvenile behavior. First off, the majority of the information on the KTMS site comes from various TKDtimes issues, which of course is a periodical and as such a valid source. The other information, such as the information which concerns Kim, Yon Hon's instructor comes from the list of people that Hwang Kee attributes to his own edification in the original, Korean version of his book, written by none other than Hwang Kee himself. Interestingly enough, the English translation of this book is smaller than the Korean, which means that some things may have been omitted from the American text. Further, when Kim, Yong Hon was asked about hwang kee's comments about having found a book on Japanese Karate, he said "what book"? Now for those of you who know me personally, you will realize that I studied Chinese martial art before I studied Korean. The techniques which we did in Chinese martial art to assist in generating power are absent from TSD/SBD... so where is the Chinese connection? TSD is simply the Korean translation of Karate Do, the original meaning way of the China Hand. Does this really matter? No. The KTMS, which does have some standing in the ROK, has its offices in the prestigious Olympiad 88 building. From what I have gathered, the SBD, has no such office in this building. Further, when Hwang Kee saw Kim, Yon Hon at the MDK reunion in Korea, he didn't seem to have a problem with anything that was said or portrayed with Grandmaster Kim. So this is my question to you, why are you guys fighting a battle which needs not to be fought? Further, if the SBD people are so right, and we know what they think, why don't they simply sue, as TSD MDK was copy written... you wish to know why? Because they can't. They are wrong. I have asked Mr. Segarra from whence he gets his information. You know what he said? "It is what has been passed down to us." Tell you what... go to Korea with our delegation and see for yourself. The second thing I would like.... the warrior-scholar is owned by Master Segarra. I would advise you guys to keep your fighting there, as no one really cares to hear it. And if the MDK founder does not have a problem with anything that was portrayed in the web site, as I have changed nothing in the historical sections, why should you, or the US SBD people? If Hwang Kee develops a problem with it, then as the KTMS's duly authorized representative, I will make the changes AFTER he and I discuss it. Until then... A farmer who pays too much attention to his neighbor's farm will grow nothing on his own farm. Focus on your farm, and if you teach, your students. I would ask one final thing... leave the name calling "Masters" elsewhere. Focus on that which is important... your training. Incidentally, Dr. Hackworth has little authority in the KTMS. The US leadership is Grandmaster Steve Bowman, who studied with Ki, Wang Kim. Sincerely, Master Frank Clay ------------------------------ From: "Andrew Pratt" Date: Fri, 6 Jul 2001 08:57:42 +0900 Subject: the_dojang: Sudden reduction in training Dear David, David Beck wrote: >> With the birth of my daughter I cut back tremendously on the amount of time I was spending training and teaching. But my wife has seen the effects if I stop entirely -- after a couple days I get REALLY irritable -- it is my stress relief. So she's resigned to letting me have that couple hours every few days I need as a minimum. So ongoing training is ok. Now getting to do 4-hour or whole-day seminars or travelling is a different story; have to be planned out well in advance and not be too close together... << Same experience here. I am not a doctor so take the following with a large grain of salt. I suspect that the irritability comes from the sudden withdrawal of adrenalin. Much like smokers, I think that sports people become addicted to adrenalin and if we don't get our daily fix then we don't feel good. The other side effect I noticed years ago when I trained for several hours every day was that if I missed a training session at the exact time of the lesson my leg muscles would start to spasm because they knew they were supposed to be working at that time. Just a small observation. Regards, Andrew ------------------------------ From: "Rudy Timmerman" Date: Thu, 05 Jul 2001 11:21:51 -0400 Subject: the_dojang: Forms Cheree writes: > That's a good idea, I seem to lose my footing easily > on surfaces other than wood... Hello Cheree: A word of caution here. Doing forms on uneven turf can get mightly slick, and you need to be careful not to get into a sudden split position and tear some groin muscles. Sincerely, Rudy ------------------------------ From: Richard Zaruba Date: Thu, 05 Jul 2001 22:04:26 -0500 Subject: the_dojang: Re: The_Dojang-Digest V8 #381 > From: Chereecharmello@aol.com > Date: Thu, 5 Jul 2001 11:43:29 EDT > Subject: the_dojang: Re: The_Dojang-Digest V8 #376 > > I once heard of a type of self-defense class geared for teachers that is > (was) aimed at submission of 'aggressive/violent' young, emotionally or > mentally handicapped students. I have been looking endlessly for this > program. I thought it was accredited by some Pennsylvania Teachers' Assoc., > but I can't find it anywhere. Has anyone heard of this? > > I know plenty of joint-locks, self-defense, etc., but not much that could > subdue without harming the child besides a bear hug... > > Willing to travel- > Cheree _______________________________________________________________________ Richard Zaruba Department of Anatomy & Cell Biology University of North Dakota School of Medicine 501 North Columbia Road P.O. Box 9037 Grand Forks, ND 58202-9037 zaruba@medicine.nodak.edu 701.777.3952 office 701.777.2576 lab 701.777.2477 fax You might try CPI (Crisis Prevention Institute) training. It is geared toward the medical and developmental disabilities field, but I know at one time they had courses geared toward dealing with both pediatric and adult individuals. It is commonly taught and used in psychiatric ward and organizations which deal with developmental disabilities. Most of the training deals with de-escalating the situation but there are section which deal with physical confrontations. This is not a run of the mill self-defense course and is used to avoid injuring either you or the patient or client. Many options (i.e. striking, kicking, pain compliance, etc.) open to the public in general are not available and are actually illegal when used in the health care and developmental disabilities setting. CPI also offers an instructors course if you are interested. Hope this helps. Rich ------------------------------ From: Emactkd@aol.com Date: Fri, 6 Jul 2001 00:20:22 EDT Subject: the_dojang: Natural Way One translation of Natural Way would be "cha yon", as in "Cha Yon Ryu" or "Natural Way School." I'm sure there are other ways to translate it, but that's one. Rick Foley ------------------------------ From: Ray Terry Date: Fri, 06 Jul 2001 7:20:56 PDT Subject: the_dojang: . ------------------------------ End of The_Dojang-Digest V8 #382 ******************************** It's a great day for Taekwondo! Support the USTU by joining today. US Taekwondo Union, 1 Olympic Plaza, Ste 104C, Colorado Spgs, CO 80909 719-578-4632 FAX 719-578-4642 ustutkd1@aol.com http://www.ustu.org To unsubscribe from the_dojang-digest send the command: unsubscribe the_dojang-digest -or- unsubscribe the_dojang-digest your.old@address in the BODY (top line, left justified) of a "plain text" e-mail addressed to majordomo@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com. Old digest issues are available via ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com. Copyright 1994-2001: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource Standard disclaimers apply.