From: the_dojang-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com To: the_dojang-digest@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Subject: The_Dojang-Digest V8 #383 Reply-To: the_dojang@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Errors-To: the_dojang-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Precedence: The_Dojang-Digest Fri, 6 July 2001 Vol 08 : Num 383 In this issue: the_dojang: Re: Kuk Sool Follow-up the_dojang: Re: The_Dojang-Digest V8 #382 the_dojang: Outside looking in (TSD Debate) the_dojang: RE: Steve Bowman the_dojang: HK, MDK, and CDK the_dojang: Demo ideas the_dojang: Korean Studies in Tokyo the_dojang: Re: Kuk Sool Won the_dojang: Re: The_Dojang-Digest V8 #382 the_dojang: Family Matters the_dojang: what's in a name the_dojang: . ========================================================================= The_Dojang, serving the Internet since June 1994. ~1111 members strong! Copyright 1994-2001: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource The premier internet discussion forum devoted to the Korean Martial Arts. Replying to this message will NOT unsubscribe you. To unsubscribe, send "unsubscribe the_dojang-digest" (no quotes) in the body (top line, left justified) of a "plain text" e-mail addressed to majordomo@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com. To send e-mail to this list use the_dojang@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com See the Korean Martial Arts (KMA) FAQ and the online search engine for back issues of The_Dojang at http://www.MartialArtsResource.com Pil Seung! ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Bruce Sims" Date: Fri, 6 Jul 2001 08:40:51 -0500 Subject: the_dojang: Re: Kuk Sool Follow-up Dear Teepee: "..... Comparing our own curriculum and style of movements/techniques/patterns/stances, it is easy to see how he was able to expand so easily. His version is a much more watered down form of Kuk Sool..." Did your resource provide you with any background concerning the nature of Ship Pal Ki or its role in the development of Kuk Sool Won? Best Wishes, Bruce ------------------------------ From: "hackworth" Date: Fri, 6 Jul 2001 10:34:19 -0400 Subject: the_dojang: Re: The_Dojang-Digest V8 #382 Bruce wrote: "Changed my mind. I think I have seen this movie before. Seems to be way too much energy associated with this topic to get the kind of objective information I was looking for. No offense, but I think I choose to remain under-informed on this particular topic rather than be responsible for encouraging strife where none is needed." You are right. Bernard is encouraging strife where none is needed. It is impossible to have any scholarly research done on anything in the martial arts. Mostly because these "Founding GrandMasters" can't even keep straight what the history of their own arts are for more than 3 to 5 years without changing it to better fit their current financial needs. It seems that TSD MDK is full of the same troubles that are eating away at arts like KukSoolWon and Hapkido. GM Hwang Kee has never once contacted anyone at GM Kim's school in Korea about this and they have seen each other several times at MDK events. These self appointed "Internet Police" are fighting enemies that they do not know over battles that do not exist. In GM Hwang Kee's original book he spends more time bad mouthing Hapkido for having Japanese roots that he spends covering his own training background. He completely left out that he had trained shortly in Hapkido and has never, ever shown anyone the magic book that he learned all of the martial arts from. He doesn't even mention the title or author of the book. Maybe I could order a Shotokan book from Amazon Books and found HackSooDo: The Art of Pretending to be a Korean Martial Art instead of a rip-off of Karate. Richard Hackworth www.americandragon.org ------------------------------ From: J T Date: Fri, 6 Jul 2001 08:33:01 -0700 (PDT) Subject: the_dojang: Outside looking in (TSD Debate) Ok, as much as I secretly love to see these soap opera type bickering on silly little things such as who invented what, I have to say that perhaps we need to put it to rest. First of all, and I may just be acting silly, why don't you just get the book written by DJN Hwang Kee on the art of Soo Bahk Do. It is $90.00, but it does contain the histroy of his art. Now GM Hackworth has stated that DJN Kee has switched his stories about his history. I personally have never seen this in any of the articles on DJN Kee however, I am not in the "in" crowd of Korean masters to be in contact with him as GM Hackworth might be. (Please note I am not attacking GM Hackworth, I am simply trying to make a point of getting your information from the book) So again, I refer you to the book. On my website, I have a history article on GM Kee which I based on his book. (Does everyone see where I am going with this?) Buy the book! The people can not dispute your facts, if you are doing nothing but throwing their own written and published facts back at them. (On a side note, the book has the address you have been looking for Mst. Clay). As for the difference in the sizes of the book, well I have not seen the Korean version of his book, but keep in mind, which I am sure that you have, that some things in Korean my not translate verbatim. If anyone knows where I can find a copy of the Korean translation I would be interested in trying to get a hold of one. My wife will be going to visit her relatives next year in Korea and so, if I don't get to go, I will have her pick up a copy over there. However, as you stated Mst. Clay, things may have been omitted, why I don't know. If there was a problem between DJN Kee and GM Kim, I don't believe it would have been vented out in public at, of all places, the 50th anniversary, so you can't base the conclusion that there is no problem between them on that incident. Plus, I don't believe DJN surf's the web looking for wrong information on his art, and even if he did hear about this, don't expect a direct call from him. However you could expect a call from any of the senior advisors. Anyway, I am not trying to attack Mst. Clay or GM Hackworth, that is not my intention. I have respect for both of these men. I also agree that things that are being said on the warrior-scholar network needs to be left there. It has not place on this board since it was not brought up here in the first place. The instigator did nothing more than to find another venue to attack Mst. Clay. I am through. I will step off my soapbox, before I am kicked off. Jeremy __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get personalized email addresses from Yahoo! Mail http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/ ------------------------------ From: "Michael Rowe (outlook)" Date: Fri, 6 Jul 2001 10:42:08 -0500 Subject: the_dojang: RE: Steve Bowman <> Oh my goodness, I used to work with him. He used to be an instructor in Florida with the American Taekwondo and Hapkido Academy chain - if I remember right it was the West Palm Beach School :) If you are ever in contact with him tell him Michael Rowe say hello (I helped run the Weston School) Michael Rowe Dan Il Kwan - Gym of Unity Unity Church of Omaha 3424 N 90th Street Omaha, Nebraska 68134 ------------------------------ From: Ray Terry Date: Fri, 06 Jul 2001 9:03:59 PDT Subject: the_dojang: HK, MDK, and CDK > that they do not know over battles that do not exist. In GM Hwang Kee's > original book he spends more time bad mouthing Hapkido for having Japanese > roots that he spends covering his own training background. He completely > left out that he had trained shortly in Hapkido and has never, ever shown > anyone the magic book that he learned all of the martial arts from. He > doesn't even mention the title or author of the book. ?? The magic book was one on Okinawan Karate (Tode). This is where he apparently learned the Okinawan katas. This and from Lee Won-kuk teaching him the Japanese flavor of these Okinawan forms. Pretty sure he (HK) spells this out in his History of Moo Duk Kwan that was published for the 50 year anniversary of the MDK. Actually I found that little book fairly refreshing, seemed like the truth (or most of it) finally came out. e.g. how Hwa Soo Do MDK failed and then he copied Lee Won-kuk and started teaching Tang Soo Do in hopes of achieving the success of Lee and the Chung Do Kwan. You don't find those facts in the original thick volumes on TSD/SBD (I have copies of the 1st and 2nd English printings). But you will find the stuff about TSD/SBD being 2000 years old. P.S. while checking the local yellow pages during my last business trip I noted that one Korean MA school was teaching a 4000 !! year old art. :) Ray Terry raymail@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com ------------------------------ From: "jere-hilland" Date: Fri, 6 Jul 2001 12:39:51 -0400 Subject: the_dojang: Demo ideas Just did a demo at the local fireworks festivities in town (Harrison, OH 4th of July Celebration) and it started at 7 pm and it lasted till 9:15. We are a new dojang so most of the students have never even tested (first belt test is this weekend). Nevertheless, it was a great success. It was along the same lines as the demos I did back in college in the late 70's - mid 80's. I did a 20 minute demo about 4 times having 1, 2, 3 and 4 people attack me, then did stick, cane, rope and fan techniques, etc. The Mrs. did about 10 minutes of kicks (one of the people that can kick straight up in the air) and then threw around a few students for another 10 minutes and did this several times. We lined up the students and went through the basics from kicks and blocks to falling ways. Even had one of my 4 year old students do some kicks. About 20 students in uniforms guarded the 4 corner of the 12x24 mats and the rest handed out about 500 flyers! It was hot in the sun on the mats. We met at the dojang at 4 pm and left the dojang about midnight. Jere R. Hilland www.geocities.com/hapkiyukwonsul ------------------------------ From: Ray Terry Date: Fri, 6 Jul 2001 09:56:10 -0700 (PDT) Subject: the_dojang: Korean Studies in Tokyo Forwarding... Dear Colleagues, The July meeting of the Chosenshi Kenkyukai will be held on Saturday, July 21. This month's speakers, who will present in Japanese, are below. Research Presentation: Kim POmsu. "Views of Civilization and of the State among Korean Students in Japan during the Great Han Empire: Focusing on the Student Association Reports of Foreign Student Groups" Book Review: Sukawa Hidenori. "ChosOn hugi sangOpsa yOngu," by Paek SUngch'Ol (Seoul: Hyean, 2000). The meeting will be held at the Kanda campus of Senshuu University, in Seminar Room 42, from 1:30 pm. Senshuu University is near Kudanshita station (exit 5) and Jinbochou station (exit A2), and is a short walk from the used bookstore district called Kanda or Jinbochou. For further information please contact Ken Robinson (robinson@icu.ac.jp). ------------------------------ From: Richard Zaruba Date: Fri, 06 Jul 2001 12:06:25 -0500 Subject: the_dojang: Re: Kuk Sool Won Terry wrote: > You're not the only one (actually I'm not that confused, but I understand > your position). As a Kuk Sool Won practitioner in Canada, I have read with > amusement In Hyuk Suh's claims of being the originator of the art. Having a > grandmaster in Korea who trained with In Hyuk, we have heard our own version > of events of the beginnings of Kuk Sool; that being that In Hyuk broke away > from the rest of the original Kuk Sool members to form his own assoc. with > the claims that he formed his own art after studying 31(!) arts to the level > of mastery. Comparing our own curriculum and style of > movements/techniques/patterns/stances, it is easy to see how he was able to > expand so easily. His version is a much more watered down form of Kuk Sool. > Anyways, I understand your position. I'm curious, who is your grandmaster and what is his version of the origin of Kuk Sool Won? Also please expand on the differences that you alluded to in your post and how you came about determining them. Respectfully, Rich _______________________________________________________________________ Richard Zaruba Department of Anatomy & Cell Biology University of North Dakota School of Medicine 501 North Columbia Road P.O. Box 9037 Grand Forks, ND 58202-9037 zaruba@medicine.nodak.edu 701.777.3952 office 701.777.2576 lab 701.777.2477 fax ------------------------------ From: Chereecharmello@aol.com Date: Fri, 6 Jul 2001 14:15:20 EDT Subject: the_dojang: Re: The_Dojang-Digest V8 #382 I thought that Tang Soo Do was a branch off of Soo Bak Do (A compliation of Korean and Chinese "open-handed" techniques combined by Hwang Ke) ------------------------------ From: Dave Weller Date: Fri, 6 Jul 2001 13:27:03 -0500 Subject: the_dojang: Family Matters Mr. Burdick posted the following: - ----> snip <----- >From: "Burdick, Dakin Robert" >Because if you are over 40, you know what I'm talking about. Most of the >guys in the training halls at that point are divorced or have no kids. >There >are very few family guys. I told the guy to quit teaching (9 hours per week >right >now) and start taking another art (say, 4 hours per week). That way he'd >get >4 hours more training each week than he is right now, and he'd get to spend >5 more hours per week with his wife (a real sweetie!) and his baby. > >For the family guys, > <----unsnip-----> All the talk about the police, the fuzz, the heat, the man and etc. has left me a bit dazed... I wonder, how many of you have actually been arrested? But, that is not the point of my post, I'll leave the LEO debate to those who have experience in this area... Mr. Burdick implies that those over 40 who train regularly are wifeless or kidless. I must respectfully disagree. I just turned 46, I go to the dojang at least twice a week (usually more). My wife, who has also reached 40 plus, is there with me. An eleven year old boy I call "son" is there as well. All the instructors at our dojang are married with children. There are many trainees over 40, married and coming to the Dojang regularly. I see the same things at our main school. Love of Martial arts does not preclude Marital bliss. We have a saying (probably stolen from someone): "The family that kicks together, sticks together." I'd also like to weigh in on the musical forms thread. Miss Illona commented about some weird stuff she'd seen at tourney's. I must agree with her comment: "I find regular forms to be beautiful in themselves when done with power and grace and excellent timing." Poomse/Kata, in my very humble opinion, are what put the Art in Martial Arts. Without them, we're just brawlers. Hope you all have a groovy day. I'm looking forward to visiting the dojang tonight, been crippled for the last week & 1/2 with lower back muscle spasm's ... still not 100%, but I am seriously jonesing for some sweat! As one poster stated, we get hooked on training and we GOTTA HAVE IT! dave weller student wtf tkd "Practice a thousand hours and you learn self discipline. Practice ten thousand hours and you learn about yourself." Myamoto Musashi ------------------------------ From: Ray Terry Date: Fri, 06 Jul 2001 12:20:42 PDT Subject: the_dojang: what's in a name > I thought that Tang Soo Do was a branch off of Soo Bak Do (A compliation of > Korean and Chinese "open-handed" techniques combined by Hwang Ke) Tang Soo Do (China Hand Way) is what several of the kwans called the martial art they taught, it is means the same as Karate-do (China Hand Way). Hwang Kee later changed the name of the art the Moo Duk Kwan taught from TSD to Soo Bahk Do. So the names used by the MDK were Hwa Soo Do (Flower Hand Way; 1945 to 1947), then Tang Soo Do (1947-1960), then Soo Bahk Do (1960-present). Ray Terry raymail@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com ------------------------------ From: Ray Terry Date: Fri, 06 Jul 2001 13:14:56 PDT Subject: the_dojang: . ------------------------------ End of The_Dojang-Digest V8 #383 ******************************** It's a great day for Taekwondo! Support the USTU by joining today. US Taekwondo Union, 1 Olympic Plaza, Ste 104C, Colorado Spgs, CO 80909 719-578-4632 FAX 719-578-4642 ustutkd1@aol.com http://www.ustu.org To unsubscribe from the_dojang-digest send the command: unsubscribe the_dojang-digest -or- unsubscribe the_dojang-digest your.old@address in the BODY (top line, left justified) of a "plain text" e-mail addressed to majordomo@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com. Old digest issues are available via ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com. Copyright 1994-2001: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource Standard disclaimers apply.