From: the_dojang-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com To: the_dojang-digest@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Subject: The_Dojang-Digest V8 #386 Reply-To: the_dojang@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Errors-To: the_dojang-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Precedence: The_Dojang-Digest Sat, 7 July 2001 Vol 08 : Num 386 In this issue: the_dojang: Re:Just a couple of adjustments the_dojang: Re:Thanks, Bernard the_dojang: Re:Request for resources the_dojang: The history of Tang Soo Do the_dojang: Hapkido Network the_dojang: Going to Korea the_dojang: Korean invasions the_dojang: Stuff the_dojang: Re: History and "Purity" the_dojang: Re: Conquered v invaded the_dojang: Watchoo talkin bout Willis? the_dojang: make up your own story the_dojang: Re: The_Dojang-Digest V8 #385 the_dojang: Do ju nim the_dojang: . ========================================================================= The_Dojang, serving the Internet since June 1994. ~1111 members strong! Copyright 1994-2001: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource The premier internet discussion forum devoted to the Korean Martial Arts. Replying to this message will NOT unsubscribe you. To unsubscribe, send "unsubscribe the_dojang-digest" (no quotes) in the body (top line, left justified) of a "plain text" e-mail addressed to majordomo@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com. To send e-mail to this list use the_dojang@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com See the Korean Martial Arts (KMA) FAQ and the online search engine for back issues of The_Dojang at http://www.MartialArtsResource.com Pil Seung! ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Bruce Sims" Date: Sat, 7 Jul 2001 08:52:22 -0500 Subject: the_dojang: Re:Just a couple of adjustments Dead David: "...., In light of the recent bickering and basically ugly stuff going on with the backgrounds of Hapkido and Tang Soo Do I felt the need to clear the air....." Thank you very much for your post. There are one or two adjustments that may be worthwhile to consider. Most of what you have shared reflects the common conclusions drawn by most people in the MA community regarding Korean martial traditions. Unfortunately there are some aspects that do not hold well in light of historical fact and Korean culture. 1.) While most people like to simply blame the role of Confucianism for the disregard of martial tradition in Korean, that would be a little like blaming the Republicans for the American Civil War. The fact is that martial tradition was repressed and derided by members of the Yangban class and participants in the Bone system of succession as a way of supporting their incessant in-fighting for power and position.To add insult to injury, the strict class/caste system used in historical Korea contributed to military aspects of the culture getting the short end of the stick as well. Lee's NEW HISTORY OF KOREA does an excellent job of presenting what is often a rather tedious conflict to follow.The manner in which the Japanese were able to waltz into Korea in 1592 is a sad commentary on the level of ineffectiveness organized military in Korea had sunk as a result. In this, I think, you are right on the money. Taking another tack, I don't know that the Korean people are well-served by characterizing their martial spirit as a function of the Korean War. Korean history is replete with numerous grass-roots responses to repression, invasion and tyranny and bespeaks a stong martial tradition among the people. Among these various efforts are the independence movements during the Japanese occupation, the Tong-hak Uprising before that, the slave and farmer uprisings prior to that, and of course the classic guerilla efforts 1592-1597 which turned back and defeated the Japanese invasions. Like any family, the Koreans do quite a bit of nastiness among themselves. This has put them in some pretty dire straights regarding their neighbors on occassion. All the same I am not sure that were I a belligerant outside force thinking that I could work my intent on a backward nation that Korea would be my first choise. The French, British and Americans all took their turns during the 1800-s and got a sound licking for their trouble. One other thing I think is worth sharing. The role of the Japanese arts is often stressed and I would be the first person to say that they were an extraordinary influence (intrusion?) into Korean culture. No arguement there. I am finding, however, and there is increasing evidence that Korean martial tradition was not "extinct" by any means or definition of the word. The problem we Americans run into in this manner is that we often use the Japanese model to define Korean tradition. I am finding that because the Japanese had such a well-formed cultural artifact in the form of the Ryu-ha system, outsiders examining Korean culture and not finding the same have decided that Korean martial tradition no longer existed. I think this does a terrible disservice to both Korean martial tradition as well an understanding of pre-reform educational process in Korea. Where we in the west have an appreciation of teachers as purveyors of discrete amounts of information, Korean culture holds teachers as mentors whose influences is applied over protracted periods of time. For this reason attempts to identify lineage associated with specific arts if fraught with obscurity and deadends. It does not, however, mean that such arts ceased to exist. A good example are the teachers preceeding my sword teacher who I have been unable to find or identify so far, Obviously it cannot mean that these men never existed or that their sword form had become extinct. In like manner, the Ship pa'l ki which I mentioned in an earlier post appears to have existed in Korea, prior to, during and after the Japanese occupation, as did Shin ("SIN") sword form, and a variety of restraining and suduing techniques best identified through the Korean police and which, again, existed prior to, during and after the Japanese occupation. Thank you very much for your effort, David. I hope between our two contributions people have a little better understanding of Korean martial tradition. Once again, thanks to Bernard and Richard for sparing us yet another mind-munbing round of finger-pointing. It has been my experience that only the more shallow seas are the ones that turn up the largest waves. :-) Best Wishes, Bruce ------------------------------ From: "Bruce Sims" Date: Sat, 7 Jul 2001 09:16:41 -0500 Subject: the_dojang: Re:Thanks, Bernard Dear Bernard: "...also , bruce , when did you get caught up in my post?..." Please do not committ suicide on my account ( :-) ) as I have more than enough karma to address in this life. I had originally interjected a request for more information regarding the issues surround the personalities and arts involved but begged off when I noted how emotional the issues were. I can always use sound, factual material, but not at the risk of losing my mind. :-) For my money, Bernard, I have seen one helluva lot more investment in this title/proprietary info crap on this side of the Pacific (as you rightly pointed out) than what I have heard of coming out of Korea. Must be something in the water here, yes? :-) Best Wishes, Bruce ------------------------------ From: "Bruce Sims" Date: Sat, 7 Jul 2001 09:25:49 -0500 Subject: the_dojang: Re:Request for resources "...You have totally ignored one style of Taekwondo, however, that completely refutes your statement. That is the Songahm style, developed by Grand Master H. U. Lee and first demonstrated in 1983 with the first three colored belts forms, and the culmination coming in 1994 with the presentation of the 9th Degree Black Belt form. Songahm has no basis whatsoever in the Japanese styles; G. M. Lee's intention was to create a traditional Korean martial art that was based on the classical Korean styles, and he succeeded beautifully....." Sorry I didn't address this post but I was not able to identify the contriutor of this clip. Is there a resource (book, video, documentation) which can shed additional light on this art? BTW: Thanks to Ray for your comment regarding Dr. Kimms' use of the title "do ju". Anyone who has information on the origin of this title please find time to share. Much appreciated. Best Wishes, Bruce ------------------------------ From: "Master Frank Clay" Date: Sat, 7 Jul 2001 10:49:22 -0400 Subject: the_dojang: The history of Tang Soo Do Dear Mr. Vaught, I do not know who you are, however, I can assure you that all of the truth about any of my actions is not known to you. I can say this... I do happen to hold an oh dan from the Daehan Tang Soo Do Moo Duk Kwan Dan Che. As far as MDK history, I never ever stated that someone other than Hang Kee founded the Moo Duk KWan. I have however asked for verifiable sources for history. I did not write any of the history on KTMS site, I inherited it. To date, I have had one recommendation for a source... one and only one. And that was here. I had a copy of the old white TSD book that Hwang Kee published in english before he changed his arts name to Soo Bahk Do. But I think that you are mistaken a tad on your history. This site has an excellent paper attached to it, courtesy of Mr. Terry, that has some of the actual conversations that occured in Korea with some of the Kwan founders. Hwang Kee has said he studied martial arts from a book, and there are pictures of him training at the Chung Do Kwan. Like it or not, Mr. Woods is accurate in that the MDK as well as many of the other Kwans are based on Shotokan. Its true, and a fact.. why else would they have used the old Japanese forms, or called their art Tang Soo Do, the Korean transliteration of Karate Do (the original version). The values of Mudo do not include facelessly attacking or slandering anyone else. Before you attack anyone, which violates every concept of mudo that I have taught and every part of the Ten Articles of Faith on Mental development as well as the ten key concepts. Might I remind you, the belt tends to be blue, to represent that we as men are not perfect, and lord knows I do not claim to be. Thank you for your time. I hope this clears the air about who I am and my position. Incidentally, in the last six months, I have been working on partnering with the VA special olympics, given free or reduced classes to some kids that could not afford it, done a seminar at a local elementary school's career day, and taught at the Richmond Police Academy, as well as taught at a non-profit organization, giving me no time off simply to make martial arts available to as many people as I could possibly do... so what exactly have I done that that was so bad? ------------------------------ From: Ray Terry Date: Sat, 07 Jul 2001 8:37:30 PDT Subject: the_dojang: Hapkido Network Just fyi... From the Hapkido Network http://www.hapkido.co.kr Ray Question and Answer Hapkido ! 1) What are the colors of the belts in Hapkido ? 2) What is the color of the dobok (uniform) ? 3) Who founded Hapkido ? 4) Is there fighting in Hapkido ? 5) Is there an international organ that controls the Hapkido ? 6) Is there a Brazilian organ that controls the Hapkido ? 7) How many techniques are there in Hapkido ? Is it true that there are more than 10.000 techniques ? 8) How long does it take to be "good" (black belt) at Hapkido ? 9) How old is Hapkido ? Is it true that it's over 2000 years old ? 10) How many weapons are used in Hapkido ? 11) What are the differences between Hapkido and Aikido ? 1) The belts are normally used in this order in Korean Hapkido schools. White, yellow, green, blue, red, brown and black. This is to say that almost all academies world-wide use most of these colors if not all, and they follow more or less this order. It is also possible to find other colors, and in some schools fewer belts with more levels. - --------------------------------------------------------------------------- 2) The Doboks (uniforms) normally used are black and white. The Korean Hapkido Federation, which is the largest federation of Hapkido, uses white Doboks with black borders (except on the sleeves). In Korea, children and even black belt instructors can use various colors from to yellow. Although black and white are the dominant colors. - --------------------------------------------------------------------------- 3) It can be said that Young Sul Choi was the first person this century to practice torsions and projections in Korea. Choi lived in Japan by the name of Tatujutsu Yoshida. He practiced Daytoiu Aiki Jiu Jitsu at the Sokaku Takeda School where Morihei Ueshiba, founder of Aikido, also practiced. Other people around the globe and in Korea have Ji Han Jae as founder, a student of Young Sul Choi. Ji Han Jae was able to project in Korea not only for being the chief of presidential guard security but also for act with Bruce Lee in the film The Game of Death. All this and high level of technique, made Ji Han Jae very famous. The answer to the question depends on the point of view of the student. Dr. Kimm He-Young, Korean Martial Arts Researcher, said after many years of research: "We can accept that Choi lit the match, but Ji made the fire". - --------------------------------------------------------------------------- 4) Hapkido is a very versatile Martial Art, which uses the legs and arms to block, torsions, projections and immobilizations (locks). Imagine two people fighting Judo, each trying to throw the other, when suddenly one of them punches or kicks the other. It isn't Judo anymore. Imagine two people fighting TaeKwondo kicking or using their hands to attack, when suddenly one of them holds the other. It isn't TaeKwondo anymore. As we have already said, Hapkido is a very versatile Martial Art, which has all of these fundamentals in its arsenal. At present in Korea a federation (WGHF) is trying to create rules which permit the student to use the maximum possible of their potential. Hapkido has originally always been practiced by one person attacking and the other defending. At traditional academies Hapkido has and always will be practiced in this way. Although this doesn't impede any instructor from any academy to develop or simply invent a type of fighting. - ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 5) No, most of the time the Instructors and Korean Masters when they leave their countries, open a school but never use their federation of origin, rather they establish their own federations, and promote themselves to 10th Dan. The organs that control Hapkido in Korea generally have no influence on these schools or federations of these Masters who call themselves Presidents or Grand Masters. Note: The four principle Korean federations are presented in this site. - ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 6) We have come to the same description as question 5. The oldest instructors in Sao Paulo, Kang and Park are independent and have their own schools, which aren't connected to any organ. The most recent Korean to arrive in Brazil was Kim in 1980. He formed a federation where he intended to join all trainees of Hapkido in Sao Paulo. Kim invited everyone from Master Park's school but nobody accepted his invitation. Because of this there is no union between followers of Hapkido in Brazil. - ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 7) Some instructors say there are 3876. Others, to draw attention say there are 10,000. This is ridiculous. Someone who knows 1 attack in Martial Arts could know all. In modern Hapkido (Hankido) there are 12 basic techniques which when mixed together can result in other techniques. In traditional Hapkido there are some basic locks and torsions that can be complemented and have some different details at the time of execution, so the Koreans make all the possible combinations with these techniques and arrive at absurd numbers. E.g. you take a frontal kick and a side kick. Total of two kicks. A Korean thinks in this form: Frontal + Side = 1 Kick Side + Frontal = 2 Kicks Front foot + Back foot = 3 Kicks This is how they create an infinite number. - -------------------------------------------------------------------------- 8) To answer this question we consulted "Kodo Ancient Ways" by Kensho Furuya. "Most people would be overjoyed if I woud say it takes just a couple of years to get a black belt, but unfortunately it does not. And though I am afraid most people would not be happy with my answer, I think the general miconception about "What is a black belt?" should be clarified as much as possible. This is not a popular subject to discuss in the way I am going to. Indeed, I warn my students not to ask this question in the first place, The answer is not what they want to hear. How do you get a black belt ? You find a competent teacher and a good scholl, begin your training and work hard. Someday - who knows when - it will come. It may take one year; it may take ten years. You may never achieve it. When you come to realize that the black belt is not as important as the practice it self, you are probably approaching the black belt level. When you realize that no matter how long orhard you train, there's a lifetime of study and practice ahead of you until you die, you are probably getting close to a black belt. Train hard, be humble, don't show off in front your teacher or other students, don't complain about any task, and do your best in everything in your life, This is what it means to be a black belt. To be overconfident, to show off your skill, to be competitive, to look down on other, to show a lack off respect, and to pick and choose what you do and don't do (believing that some jobs are beneath you dignity) characterize the student who will never achieve black belt. What they wear around their waists is simply a piece of merchandise bought for a few dollars in a martial arts supply store. The real black belt, worn by a real black belt holder, is the white belt of beginner, turned black by the color of his blood and sweat. - --------------------------------------------------------------------------- 9) The name Hapkido arrived in the 50's. Korean Martial Arts for sure have existed for a long time. In the beginning names like Judo, Karate, Aikido, TaeKwondo didn't exist, but what existed in Korea were different types of Martial Arts like, So Do Moo Sool (Tribal Martial Art), Ui Moo Sool and Kung Joo Moo Sool (Martial Art from the Imperial Guard). These Martial Arts were practiced by different classes. In these existing forms of fighting no techniques of torsion have been registered, which indicates that there is a great possibility of the techniques of torsion coming from Japan. Its important to explain to the student and others who have little knowledge of Martial Arts that the Korean people were prohibited to practice Martial Arts by the Japanese who at the time dominated Korea. - --------------------------------------------------------------------------- 10) Originally short staffs (Dan Bon), and long staffs (Jan Bon), a sword and cane or walking stick. A popular weapon used in Korea with Chinese influence is the fan, which is greatly used in Kuk Sool Won. Of course any instructor can add whatever weapon they want. - ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 11) Hapkido and Aikido were influenced by the same Japanese Martial Artof Dayto-ryu Aikijujutsu, an art that emphasizes on torsions, locks projections, immobilizations and falls. Both founders of Hapkido and Aikido practiced this art with the same Master. This is where the similarity of the two arts comes from. YOUNG SUL CHOI took this art to Korea and ended up adding some Korean techniques, like kicks for example, and developed Hapkido. During the course of time more and more Korean techniques were added and this created Hapkido, as it is known today. Aikido established itself in Japan and Morihei Ueshiba, the founder, principally changed the base of philosophy, which until today, is the most emphasized element in Aikido. Summarizing we can say that Aikido has no kicks but in no way is it an incomplete Martial Art. ------------------------------ From: Longbro2@cs.com Date: Sat, 07 Jul 2001 11:31:53 -0400 Subject: the_dojang: Going to Korea Hey folks, I'm leaving for Korea later this month. I will be stationed at Camp Humphreys and I was wondering if anyone knows a good TaeKwonDo school in the area? Thanks Alan ------------------------------ From: ABurrese@aol.com Date: Sat, 7 Jul 2001 11:52:31 EDT Subject: the_dojang: Korean invasions << Mr. Terry, Korea in the Choson Period experienced the following: 1592-1598 Hideyoshi Invasions (Japanese) >> Only have a minute, but will comment on the first of the list. True, Hideyoshi launched an invasion on Korea. (Actually two main invasions since there were years of negotiations and talks during the period you list above where only a small amount of Japanese were in Korea) The thing is, Korea won, and the Japanese were unable to take the country over. Yi Sun-shin led the Korean navy to victory over the Japanese and the war really was won on the seas. Correct me if wrong, since I deleted the last digest, but didn't your post say Korea had been taken over all these times? Being invaded and finally repelling the invaders is not the same as being occupied, such as the Japanese were doing before WWII. Yes, much of the martial arts of Korea were lost due to a stronger emphasis put on education and culture. (Confucianism had a lot to do with this) But Korea does have a unique history and had martial training and fighting arts too. The truth is probably somewhere in the middle of "All modern Korean arts are from the Japanese" and "All Korean arts have a 2000 year history." Yours in Training, Alain http://members.aol.com/aburrese/ ------------------------------ From: "Phil" Date: Sat, 7 Jul 2001 11:52:07 -0400 Subject: the_dojang: Stuff Who is the founder of what. Who did what to who. Where did this or that come from. This or that art is not really art. This art is better than that art. How dare you state your opinion. bla bla bla bla I do enjoy many of the discussions on this post and find many of them to be quite informative (after I run it through a bs filter). Is their more interest in the past of our arts or should there be more interest in the future of our arts ? Knowing the origins of our arts is important, but maybe we should focus a little more on where we are going. Where are we going ? Anyone have any idea ? Cant we all get along and just train? phil ------------------------------ From: Richard Zaruba Date: Sat, 07 Jul 2001 10:53:57 -0500 Subject: the_dojang: Re: History and "Purity" While were on history let us go back a bit further and take a look at some finding of cultural anthropology. A good deal of Japanese culture was influenced by Korea prior to about 1100 A.D. This includes religion, warfare, arts, metalworking,...... During the three kingdom period Paikche in particular had many ties with Japan. There is a great deal to be said about the total interaction within this area of the world. Korea had an impact on China's culture as well if you bother to read some of the material dealing with their interactions. This bantering about of who influenced who is foolish, in every interaction both sides are influenced, whether we are talking about people or countries. If you want to see a Korean influence in Japan, look at the way kicking is now taught in many styles of Karate, including in Japan. Not all martial arts in Korea were destroyed but many were suppressed or lost. No one should ever say that their art only came from one country, because at the dawn of time, when the first punch and kick where thrown, there were no countries. By the way, it was the Korean government who suppressed Tae Kyon before the annexation. Tae Kyon used to be highly associated with gangsters, thugs and gambling in Korea. Sincerely, Rich _______________________________________________________________________ Richard Zaruba Department of Anatomy & Cell Biology University of North Dakota School of Medicine 501 North Columbia Road P.O. Box 9037 Grand Forks, ND 58202-9037 zaruba@medicine.nodak.edu 701.777.3952 office 701.777.2576 lab 701.777.2477 fax ------------------------------ From: ABurrese@aol.com Date: Sat, 7 Jul 2001 12:03:19 EDT Subject: the_dojang: Re: Conquered v invaded << Yes!!! But you claimed they were "conquered" many times. Yes, the Korean peninsula was -invaded- several times, but they were seldom militarily - -conquered-. This is a somewhat prevalent misconception. >> Ditto, that's what I meant when I just posted. Conquered and invaded are pretty different. You can say Japan invaded America with the attack on Pearl Harbor, but we were not conquered. Alain http://members.aol.com/aburrese/ ------------------------------ From: "Craig Stovall" Date: Sat, 07 Jul 2001 12:06:37 -0500 Subject: the_dojang: Watchoo talkin bout Willis? Clothahump wrote: "Songahm has no basis whatsoever in the Japanese styles; G. M. Lee's intention was to create a traditional Korean martial art that was based on the classical Korean styles, and he succeeded beautifully." Help a brother out here: 1. What are the names of these classical Korean styles? 2. What is the approximate time period(s) that these classical Korean styles were practiced? 3. What reference material to these classical Korean styles did Lee have available? In other words, did he practice them himself (handed down through the family), have access to written records, or base his knowledge on oral traditions? I think these are fair questions, and I'd appreciate some help. Thanks, Craig Stovall Perpetual White Belt _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com ------------------------------ From: "Mac" Date: Sat, 7 Jul 2001 12:45:40 -0500 Subject: the_dojang: make up your own story >David Woods wrote: > and their respective arts held in disregard. As a result most if not all of > the native Korean martial arts went extinct. This is also the reason that the > Koreans were conquered so many times by their neighbors. The Korean fighting > spirit that we know today originated out of the Korean War era and was taught > to them by the Americans who served there and trained them for war. Ray Terry : Umm, very interesting. Just how many times, in what years and by whom was Korea conquered? Good question Ray. David makes the Koreans sound like wussies. The Koreans kicked the Japanese butts during the first Japanese invasion in 1592. The second Japanese invasion was in 1597 in which the Korean's also were victors. It wasn't until 1909 that the Japanese were finally able to take Korea. Sure during the Yi Dynasty (1392-1910) there was a shift from the Buddhist factions having the major influence in the country's affairs to the hands of Yi Song-Gye and the Confucianist. He did form a strong central government and banned the study of martial arts except in the military, which he controlled. That was when Tae Kyon and Soo Bahk practioners went 'underground'. This was when the Hwa Rang (being firmly rooted in Buddhist teachings) were forced to disband. Any Hwa Rang who failed to obey would be imprisoned or put to death. The native Korean martial arts didn't go extinct, but many Hwa Rang warriors did retreat to Korean monasteries and became monks. The arts were just not taught to the public and had gone underground. But you are correct, most of the modern Kwan founders did train in Japanese Karate-Do. So you think the Korean fighting spirit was taught to them by the Americans? I think having my country run over and trashed by a foreign power would give me fighting spirit. And if they didn't have fighting spirit until "taught" to them by the Americans, why did the Kwans teaching 'martial' arts open up *before* the Americans (UN) came to help them in 1950? David, are you 'making up your own story'? :-) Mac TangSoo! ------------------------------ From: DWoods321@aol.com Date: Sat, 7 Jul 2001 13:52:58 EDT Subject: the_dojang: Re: The_Dojang-Digest V8 #385 I guess it is only a dirty little secret in some dojang. Mr. Terry I stand corrected, Korea was only invaded. Although one would think that since they were invaded several times between 1592 and 1636 then again in the early 1900s the Koreans must have been considered weak militarily. As we see today even a weak military is an indication of a idealistic weakness or even moral weakness as we are experiencing in our nation today. To the inevitable response to that statement of "We are still the most powerful nation in the world.", I say this I have been in the Army for about 7 years and our military might is nothing to what it once was. Our mission load has increased 300 times what it was previously and our force has been reduced by roughly 40%. Bernard Redfield is a friend of mine and an honorable man with a good heart. He loves Tang Soo Do and has a real passion for its heritage and history. Check out his website and you can see his devotion to the Art. And I know that Bernard was not trying to offend but trying to get to the truth which is rather difficult in Korean Martial Art. Too many people with thin skin in this country!!! :) Grm. Hwang Kee should not be put up on a pedestal or venerated. He should be respected for his contributions in the martial arts and his development of Tang Soo Do, Soo Bahk Do, and Tae Kwon Do Moo Duk Kwan. Things that may have been misleading that he has said in the past are no more morally wrong than the similar things in Gen. Choi and the other Kwan leaders pasts. Please keep in mind folks these posts are not personal attacks, please do not take them as such. They are merely the truths I have gleaned from my own personal research. You may have other perspectives on it and that is good, good Korean martial arts stylists must also be good scholars in the Hwarang tradition. Take care and God Bless! Tang Soo! David Woods ------------------------------ From: "Mac" Date: Sat, 7 Jul 2001 13:44:02 -0500 Subject: the_dojang: Do ju nim Hey Bruce, <<"....that would be DJN Hwang..." ...Do you know the origins of this title? ...So far the only other folks that use this title are supporters of Ji, Han Jae (Hapkido)....>> That's the only other time where I've heard it also. I believe I was responding to a message from Jeramy T. Since he used that term, I was keeping my response in his same terms to explaing that Hwang, Tae-Nam (Hwang Kee), that his last name is Hwang. So the proper term would be (if you used it) DoJu Nim Hwang or KwanJang Nim Hwang, not DJN Kee. As Hwang Kee was the founder and head of the Moo Duk Kwan, the proper term is KwanJang. At least that's the only term I've ever heard or used for him. I don't think he has ever used the term DoJu Nim to describe himself and DJN is not used within the MDK. Hope this helps, Mac TangSoo! ------------------------------ From: Ray Terry Date: Sat, 07 Jul 2001 13:22:28 PDT Subject: the_dojang: . ------------------------------ End of The_Dojang-Digest V8 #386 ******************************** It's a great day for Taekwondo! Support the USTU by joining today. US Taekwondo Union, 1 Olympic Plaza, Ste 104C, Colorado Spgs, CO 80909 719-578-4632 FAX 719-578-4642 ustutkd1@aol.com http://www.ustu.org To unsubscribe from the_dojang-digest send the command: unsubscribe the_dojang-digest -or- unsubscribe the_dojang-digest your.old@address in the BODY (top line, left justified) of a "plain text" e-mail addressed to majordomo@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com. Old digest issues are available via ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com. Copyright 1994-2001: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource Standard disclaimers apply.