From: the_dojang-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com To: the_dojang-digest@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Subject: The_Dojang-Digest V8 #387 Reply-To: the_dojang@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Errors-To: the_dojang-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Precedence: The_Dojang-Digest Sun, 8 July 2001 Vol 08 : Num 387 In this issue: the_dojang: Re: The_Dojang-Digest V8 #386 the_dojang: ITF World Championships -- Day 8 the_dojang: Re:Do-ju-nim (con't) the_dojang: Re: Conquer vs Winning vs Occupation the_dojang: My Big Mouth the_dojang: Hwang History the_dojang: RE: Songahm/ATA/GM Lee the_dojang: Re: TSD/ SBD the_dojang: Black Belt the_dojang: Re: submission of troubled/disabled Re: the_dojang: RE: Songahm/ATA/GM Lee the_dojang: . ========================================================================= The_Dojang, serving the Internet since June 1994. ~1111 members strong! Copyright 1994-2001: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource The premier internet discussion forum devoted to the Korean Martial Arts. Replying to this message will NOT unsubscribe you. To unsubscribe, send "unsubscribe the_dojang-digest" (no quotes) in the body (top line, left justified) of a "plain text" e-mail addressed to majordomo@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com. To send e-mail to this list use the_dojang@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com See the Korean Martial Arts (KMA) FAQ and the online search engine for back issues of The_Dojang at http://www.MartialArtsResource.com Pil Seung! ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: DWoods321@aol.com Date: Sat, 7 Jul 2001 17:12:09 EDT Subject: the_dojang: Re: The_Dojang-Digest V8 #386 Mr. McHenry, I do not think that the Koreans are or were "wussies". I am merely suggesting that certain ideals that they came to hold dear shifted their life perspective paradigm to more scholarly pursuits and made them adopt a more pacifistic view. This is not unlike the Okinawans they were more pacifistic as well, and they paid for it during the Satsuma Invasions. I really appreciate everyones posts as this allows me to further research Korean Martial Arts. I do not "make it up" I simply take the evidence I get and make a reasonable and logical theory. :) Since it is next to impossible to get a straight or non-changing answer from the powers that be one must do what one can to discover the truth or at least something close. Thanks again for everyone's input and for livening up the Dojang Digest with interesting conversation. Take care and God Bless! Tang Soo! David Woods ------------------------------ From: "Robert Martin" Date: Sat, 7 Jul 2001 15:36:35 -0600 Subject: the_dojang: ITF World Championships -- Day 8 Today was the third day of competition. This morning was men's under 71 KG sparring, women's under 58 and 63 KG sparring, and men's and women's power breaking. This afternoon was men's and women's individual sparring semis and finals. Also, were the finals of individual power breaking, specialty breaking and patterns for men and women. The US took bronze medals in 2nd Dan women's patterns (Erin McCord) and women's individual specialty breaking (Desiree D'Angelo). It was very exciting for us all! We didn't do so well in the other events. Both men and women did very well in sparring but had trouble making the final four. We had similar problems in breaking. (Erin McCord was our only patterns competitor the US had in medal rounds.) We'll try to get more pictures posted to www.maestastkd.com as soon as we can. Taekwon, Robert Martin A-4-336 ------------------------------ From: "Bruce Sims" Date: Sat, 7 Jul 2001 16:49:33 -0500 Subject: the_dojang: Re:Do-ju-nim (con't) Dear Mac: "...As Hwang Kee was the founder and head of the Moo Duk Kwan, the proper term is KwanJang. At least that's the only term I've ever heard or used for him. I don't think he has ever used the term DoJu Nim to describe himself and DJN.." That makes sense. GM Koo accepts the use of "grandmaster" as he knows that we Americans are not very good with the appropriate use of titles and he takes such grandiosity with much salt on his kimchi. He most commonly responds to Kwan-jang (nim) (roughly "director") indicating his position as the chief authority of his school and his association. Let me hold on this for a bit until people are able to share their thoughts on the origins or appropriate use of this term, 'kay? As it stands right now apparently someone has coined this term to identify a person who has originated an art for themselves and that seems really at odds with overall Korean tradition as I understand it. Best Wishes, Bruce ------------------------------ From: "Bruce Sims" Date: Sat, 7 Jul 2001 17:01:43 -0500 Subject: the_dojang: Re: Conquer vs Winning vs Occupation Dear Alain: "..... Conquered and invaded are pretty different. You can say Japan invaded America with the attack on Pearl Harbor, but we were not conquered...." This is a very important distinction. In actuality the process of "conquering," which is to say the complete subjugation of a people, is a relatively rare occurance in human history. One relatively modern example would be the Norman invasion of Britain in 1066. The dominance and subsequent inter-relationships among the Angles, Saxons and Normans has been so through as to make it impossible to tease out one from another. This is "conquered" in the classic sense. There have been any numer of occupations and over protracted periods of time (witness Albanian culture in the Balkans; Northern European culture in the American west). However, as long as a culture remains distinct and viable, even under the boot of an oppressor, it is probably inaccurate to identify that culture as "conquered". In my own mind, for instance, to make winning the Second World War the equivalent of conquering Germany, Italy or Japan is most probably invalid. Best Wishes, Bruce ------------------------------ From: "Clifford Vaught" Date: Sun, 08 Jul 2001 01:25:53 Subject: the_dojang: My Big Mouth Dear membership of the Dojang Digest, I write to offer my humble apologies to you all and to Master Frank Clay. I believe I have let my passions for my art and my leadership cause me to commit a dishonorable thing in your readership. I have dishonorably attacked a valuable contributor to the Digest - Master Frank Clay - and came out of no where to do it. As a martial artist, I feel I have shamed my self and my fellow MDK practioners. I have communicated with Master Clay directly, as I should have in the first place. This forum is meant to be a place of enlightenment and knowledge sharing and I have clearly allowed myself to react emotionally. Were this a real sparring contest, I'd probably be on the dojang floor right now. In the true spirit of the martial arts, Cliff Vaught _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com ------------------------------ From: Ray Terry Date: Sat, 07 Jul 2001 19:56:39 PDT Subject: the_dojang: Hwang History Since we're on a SBD theme, the history section from GM Hwang Kee's TSD/SBD volume 1, 1978. The 1995 book is far more accurate wrt MDK history. Ray -------------------------------------------------------------------- More history of Korean MA. This time by Moo Duk Kwan Tang Soo Do's GrandMaster Hwang Kee Tang Soo Do (Soo Bahk Do) by Hwang Kee 1978 [Keep in mind that, as some of the other MA style founders do, Hwang first defines Tang Soo Do as weaponless fighting which began with the first human on earth.] [The accounting of the history from 37 A.D. to 1391 A.D. have been left out. The Chinese language text was also removed.] D. The Yi Dynasty (1392 to 1907 A.D.) According to the 32nd volume of the Korean history book "Tae Jong Sil Rok," King Sang Wang was born in July of the Byong Sin (about 500 years ago). The king had a big party attended by his son and other relatives. They enjoyed seeing soldiers performing in a Tang Soo Do demonstration. Other books besides Tae Jong Sil Rok give evidence of the practice of Tang Soo Do during the Yi Dynasty. An especially important and useful book was the Moo Yei Do Bo Tong Ji (Military Arts Manual). It was the culmination of several earlier publications or scrolls where an original description of six techniques was added to until its final content of 24 techniques was published. These techniques were derived from various schools of martial artistry. The presence of this book during the Yi Dynasty establishes the existence of Tang Soo Do beyond any reasonable doubt. Training in Tang Soo Do varied in technique from one place to another, depending on the method, style, period and location. Archery, for example, was most popular under King Se Jo, 7th monarch of that period. Later, during the reign of King Sun Jo, the book "Chun Bo" was written describing the techniques of Gun Bong (basic stick art) by Han Kyo. In addition, the "Hyun Rung Ji" (Name of Book) described Sip Pal Ki (18 techniques) for the Juk Chang Tchang (the long spear). Such study became popular and the name Sip Pal Ki was used most commonly to refer to the martial arts. Later in this same period, a book of 24 techniques of Ki Yee, (the art of horsemanship) was added to Sip Pal Ki. Ja Be was another term commonly used to refer to Tang Soo Do. By and large, despite the presence of scrolls, books and statuary, the arts were handed down by word of mouth to the present day. Towards the end of the Yi Dynasty, a style of fighting developed called Tae Kyun, which employed only foot techniques. (Tae Kyun is not related to the current Tae Kwon Do). There are still people who practice the techniques and who have seen Tae Kyun used by older people in Korea. However, Tae Kyun has never been accepted as a true martial art because it lacked mental discipline. Subsequently it was never recorded as was Sip Pal Ki. Tae Kyun was a form of street fighting, and it developed a bad reputation as a fighting skill for criminal use. The culture of Tae Kyun remains only through a legend called "The Evening Story" which is still handed down by word of mouth. Tae Kyun developed from ancient Tang Soo Do, and modern Tang Soo Do has benefited by incorporating the superb foot techniques into its style. Other popular martial arts at the time included Sip Pal Ki (18 technique style), Sa Sip Yuk Ki (36 technique style), Sip Pal Ban (18 techniques), Sip Pal Jip (18 techniques), Sam Sip Yuk Jip (36 techniques), Sip Pal Jong (18 techniques), Sam Sip Yuk Jong (36 techniques), and of course Tang Soo Do. The 18 "techniques" of Sip Pal Ki (also known as Sip Pal Ban, or Sip Pal Byong Ki) refer to 18 military weapons, which are listed below: 1). CHANG 2). DO 3). GU 4). KUK 5). BOO 6). WOL 7). KU 8). CHE 9). PYON 10). KAN 11). JO 12). BONG 13). KON 14). DANG 15). CHU 16). KWON 17). YU SUNG 18). PIL They also refer to the following as "Moo Yei Sip Pal Ban": 1). KOONG 2). NO 3). CHANG 4). DO 5). GU 6). MO 7). SOON 8). BOO 9). WOK 10). KUK 11). PYO 12). KAN 13). KWA 14). SOO 15). CHE 16). PA DOO 17). MYON SUNG TOO SEK 18). BAIK TA The various arts of Korea were practiced to the end of the Yi Dynasty (1907). The study of these arts halted during the Japanese occupation of Korea, ending in 1945. At that time, the author established the modern Tang Soo Do style under the Moo Duk Kwan school as a continuation of the native traditional martial arts. At the end of the Japanese occupation (August 15, 1945), the following schools were in existence: 1. Moo Duk Kwan (headed by Hwang Kee, in Seoul) 2. Yon Moo Kwan (headed by Chun Sang Sup, in Seoul) 3. YMCA Kwon Pup (headed by Pyong In Yun, in Seoul) 4. Chung Do Kwan (headed by Won Kuk Lee, in Seoul) and 5. Song Moo Kwan (headed by No Byong Jik, at Kai Sung). School Member Styles - ----------------------------------- Moo Duk Kwan Mook Duk Kwan Ji Do Kwan Ji Do Kwan Yon Moo Kwan Han Moo Kwan Chang Moo Kwan Kang Duk Won Kang Moo Kwan Cheong Moo Kwan Chung Do Kwan Chong Do Kwan Chong Kyong Kwan Kuk Moo Kwan O Do Kwan Song Moo Kwan Song Moo Kwan By the start of the Korean War (June 25, 1950) a number of schools had emerged and had formed new organizations, listed below. Headed by Location - --------------------------------- Hwang Kee Seoul Yun Kwei Byong Seoul Lee Nam Sak Seoul Son Dok Song Yum Yong Kyu Korean Tang Soo Do incorporated as Korean Soo Bahk Do Association and registered with the Korean Government as the Korean traditional Martial Art on June 30, 1960. Chairman of the Korean Tang Soo Do Association from beginning to present time: Hwang Kee The Korean Tae Soo Do Association incorporated and joined with the Korean Athletic Association (a sport body) in January, 1964. Korean Tae Soo Do Association changed its name to Korean Tae Kwon Do Association in 1965. Chairmen of Tae Kwon Do Association from its establishment to the present time: Che Myung Sin, Choi Hong Hee, No Byong Jik, Kim Young Che, and Kim Un Yong. ------------------------------ From: Gregory Giddins Date: Sat, 7 Jul 2001 20:40:42 -0600 Subject: the_dojang: RE: Songahm/ATA/GM Lee Oh, Please, please, please continue this conversation. I have a minor personal interest in this, as I now have a 2nd dan working out with us in class (A Tang Soo Do class- and,no, I'm not in the least interested in the TSD thread going right now, most of you involved should take a step back and regain your composure, you're losing honor with every embittered, nasty, ignorant email) who is from the ATA/Songahm style. I went to the website, and was dissapointed at the lack of backgound of the founder, the late GM Lee. They had a history page, but it didn't say where he studied, what he studied, any whom he studied under. Can anyone provide a personal history of the founder of the songahm style? I would very much like to be able to fit the songahm style into my personal version of the development of the Korean martial arts. Greg Giddins - ------------------ From: "Craig Stovall" Date: Sat, 07 Jul 2001 12:06:37 -0500 Resent-Date: Sat, 07 Jul 2001 20:18:01 PDT Subject: the_dojang: Watchoo talkin bout Willis? Clothahump wrote: "Songahm has no basis whatsoever in the Japanese styles; G. M. Lee's intention was to create a traditional Korean martial art that was based on the classical Korean styles, and he succeeded beautifully." Help a brother out here: 1. What are the names of these classical Korean styles? 2. What is the approximate time period(s) that these classical Korean styles were practiced? 3. What reference material to these classical Korean styles did Lee have available? In other words, did he practice them himself (handed down through the family), have access to written records, or base his knowledge on oral traditions? I think these are fair questions, and I'd appreciate some help. Thanks, Craig Stovall Perpetual White Belt ------------------------------ From: Creed71963@aol.com Date: Sat, 7 Jul 2001 22:51:58 EDT Subject: the_dojang: Re: TSD/ SBD After listening to the debate that has raged over which TSD GM is saying what to bolster his claim, I have come to the conclusion that all we're going to get out of this subject is a hell of a headache and maybe some hard feelings between some people on this list. Personally, I have come to the conclusion that no MA is 100% 'Pure.' China, Korea and Japan had over a thousand years of cross-cultural exposure to each other before W.W.II, and it seems inconceivable that fighting arts were not among those things that were exchanged between the countries. A technique that is in Karate might have come from Korea via China, or vice-versa. I could be wrong on this, so I am open to any evidence that this isn't the case. Because of 30+ years that Korea was under Japan's control, much of Korea's history and culture was destroyed. With KMA being held in such low esteem for several hundred years before that, it muddies up the actual history of KMA, making some of the GM claims highly difficult, if not impossible, to verify. National pride has aggravated this confusion even more, so the KMA history debate can get heated at times. I use to think history was important, but after seeing the contradictory stories about the same MA, I have decided that there are more important things to concentrate on. Techniques and other, less nebulous parts of the MA. We're not going to able to do unravel the real history of KMAs on this list. There's too much conflicting information out there to be able to arrive at a solid, well-founded and documented History of the KMA that we're all going to agree on. And while history should be discussed on this list, some of the discussion, lately the claimed linage of certain GMs, is a subject that inflames people's passions (rightly or wrongly). It seems to be a no win situation, so let's all be friends, OK? Craig ------------------------------ From: "Phil" Date: Sat, 7 Jul 2001 22:50:09 -0400 Subject: the_dojang: Black Belt Bravo Ray Terry. What you wrote in your post about what is a Black Belt is beautiful. Very well put and very true. phil ------------------------------ From: ChunjiDo@aol.com Date: Sat, 7 Jul 2001 23:06:14 EDT Subject: the_dojang: Re: submission of troubled/disabled In a message dated 7/5/2001 10:25:38 AM Pacific Daylight Time, the_dojang-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com writes: << From: Chereecharmello@aol.com Date: Thu, 5 Jul 2001 11:43:29 EDT Subject: the_dojang: Re: The_Dojang-Digest V8 #376 I once heard of a type of self-defense class geared for teachers that is (was) aimed at submission of 'aggressive/violent' young, emotionally or mentally handicapped students. I have been looking endlessly for this program. I thought it was accredited by some Pennsylvania Teachers' Assoc., but I can't find it anywhere. Has anyone heard of this? I know plenty of joint-locks, self-defense, etc., but not much that could subdue without harming the child besides a bear hug... Willing to travel- Cheree >> hi cheree my spouse took a course like this in shawnee mission, kansas (greater metro kansas city area). i'll check on info and get back with you. feel free to remind me, if necessary :). we're moving, baby's teething, and i'm just plain insane right now ;). melinda Chajonshim Martial Arts Supply http://www.cjmas.com Proud Sponsor of the 10th Annual 2001 US Open Taekwondo Championships ------------------------------ From: Ray Terry Date: Sat, 07 Jul 2001 21:12:26 PDT Subject: Re: the_dojang: RE: Songahm/ATA/GM Lee > Can anyone provide a personal history of the founder of the songahm style? I thought Lee was Chung Do Kwan, but can't recall now why I'm thinking that. Songahm is mostly just the teaching method and forms (copyrighted, btw) used by the ATA. Yes? Ray Terry raymail@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com ------------------------------ From: Ray Terry Date: Sat, 07 Jul 2001 21:13:41 PDT Subject: the_dojang: . ------------------------------ End of The_Dojang-Digest V8 #387 ******************************** It's a great day for Taekwondo! Support the USTU by joining today. US Taekwondo Union, 1 Olympic Plaza, Ste 104C, Colorado Spgs, CO 80909 719-578-4632 FAX 719-578-4642 ustutkd1@aol.com http://www.ustu.org To unsubscribe from the_dojang-digest send the command: unsubscribe the_dojang-digest -or- unsubscribe the_dojang-digest your.old@address in the BODY (top line, left justified) of a "plain text" e-mail addressed to majordomo@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com. Old digest issues are available via ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com. Copyright 1994-2001: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource Standard disclaimers apply.