From: the_dojang-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com To: the_dojang-digest@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Subject: The_Dojang-Digest V8 #388 Reply-To: the_dojang@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Errors-To: the_dojang-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Precedence: The_Dojang-Digest Sun, 8 July 2001 Vol 08 : Num 388 In this issue: the_dojang: Doju Nim the_dojang: Re: Police Martial Arts the_dojang: honor the_dojang: Re: The_Dojang-Digest V8 #386 the_dojang: Re: The_Dojang-Digest V8 #387 the_dojang: Re: The_Dojang-Digest V8 #387 Re: the_dojang: Re: Police Martial Arts the_dojang: Songahm the_dojang: eskrima-digest the_dojang: Re: audible breathing and finishing movements in sync the_dojang: Re: LEO thread the_dojang: Re: Songahm/ATA/GM Lee. with TKD &HRD to boot the_dojang: Re: Clothahump the_dojang: Re: Songahm/ATA/GM Lee the_dojang: Re: Songahm and GM Lee the_dojang: . ========================================================================= The_Dojang, serving the Internet since June 1994. ~1111 members strong! Copyright 1994-2001: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource The premier internet discussion forum devoted to the Korean Martial Arts. Replying to this message will NOT unsubscribe you. To unsubscribe, send "unsubscribe the_dojang-digest" (no quotes) in the body (top line, left justified) of a "plain text" e-mail addressed to majordomo@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com. To send e-mail to this list use the_dojang@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com See the Korean Martial Arts (KMA) FAQ and the online search engine for back issues of The_Dojang at http://www.MartialArtsResource.com Pil Seung! ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: danny Date: Sat, 07 Jul 2001 21:52:37 -0600 Subject: the_dojang: Doju Nim Actually, I believe that you will find (at least according to my Korean student from Seoul) that the correct Korean method of saying Do ju Nim and Name (such as Hwang) would not be Doju Nim Hwang, but Hwang Doju Nim. Same with Sabum Nim, Jeja Nim, Sa Heung Nim, etc. One is (in my case) Alberts Sabum Nim, not Sabum Nim Alberts. The other way is Americanized so it seems like Title. So and So, rather that So and So Title, the way the Koreans use it. Happy Training, Danny Alberts ------------------------------ From: Beungood@aol.com Date: Sat, 07 Jul 2001 23:56:58 EDT Subject: the_dojang: Re: Police Martial Arts Rudy wrote: <> What is this Association? Is it on the WWW? I havent any experience with them. <> Probably should limit my posting when im wide awake and can form coherent sentences! Friends always. one more thing about training, They should add a component on Verbal Judo. Alot of times what is said at the start of an incident can set into motion ugly events... Hapki! JAck Ouellette ------------------------------ From: "Rudy Timmerman" Date: Sat, 07 Jul 2001 12:21:10 -0400 Subject: the_dojang: honor Mr. Vaught writes: > This forum is meant to be a > place of enlightenment and knowledge sharing and I have clearly allowed > myself to react emotionally. Hello Mr. Vaught. Your post indicates to me that you have more than the basics of the art well in hand. Nice post! Sincerely, Rudy ------------------------------ From: Richard Zaruba Date: Sun, 08 Jul 2001 00:11:00 -0500 Subject: the_dojang: Re: The_Dojang-Digest V8 #386 > Koreans must have been considered weak militarily. I believe you are in error and strategic might be a better choice of words. Korea has often been thought of as a land bridge to invade northern China. This has even been stated by the American military during the Korean war. Sincerely, Rich _______________________________________________________________________ Richard Zaruba Department of Anatomy & Cell Biology University of North Dakota School of Medicine 501 North Columbia Road P.O. Box 9037 Grand Forks, ND 58202-9037 zaruba@medicine.nodak.edu 701.777.3952 office 701.777.2576 lab 701.777.2477 fax ------------------------------ From: Richard Zaruba Date: Sun, 08 Jul 2001 00:31:21 -0500 Subject: the_dojang: Re: The_Dojang-Digest V8 #387 Hello all, I would like to make a point about some of the comments about the history we get about our individual styles. Anytime you translate from one language to another the meaning and details can get lost and context changed. I personally speak two languages having grown up speaking English at school, with friends, ect and speaking Czech with my family. I can insure you that many translations between those two languages are botched very badly by people labeled as experts. They are both European languages with a somewhat similar culture so the translation can be close when it comes to cultural implications. An Asian language and English are no where near the same and the cultural aspects are very different. Have a document in Korean translated by a native English speaker who learned Korean and by a native Korean speaker who learned English and by an individual that grew up speaking both Korean and English. I can guarantee you that each of the translations will be different, each individual will translate based on their own knowledge and understanding. Many of the changes that I have seen done to some histories could well be because of this phenomena. I guess the take home message is while history can be interesting, it will never be exact. Sincerely, Rich _______________________________________________________________________ Richard Zaruba Department of Anatomy & Cell Biology University of North Dakota School of Medicine 501 North Columbia Road P.O. Box 9037 Grand Forks, ND 58202-9037 zaruba@medicine.nodak.edu 701.777.3952 office 701.777.2576 lab 701.777.2477 fax ------------------------------ From: "Clifford Vaught" Date: Sun, 08 Jul 2001 12:06:13 Subject: the_dojang: Re: The_Dojang-Digest V8 #387 Bruce and all, Hwang Kee's title is Kwan Jang Nim. The only one of the TSD grandmasters that I know of that doesn't go by that title in their organization is C.S. Kim (International TSD Federation). Interesting quote here from the Philadelphia Inquirer magazine from a story on GM J.C. Shin: "The roots of tang soo do stretch to India, circa 4,000 B.C., Shin said. At first, it was purely ascetic, a set of exercises to chasten the flesh, quicken the blood, sharpen the mind, elevate the spirit. Buddhist monks carried the practice to central China. In time it became more practical, a tool for defense." In my absence from the Digest, I don't know if this discussion came up already - but I've never heard of any references to India in connection with Tang Soo Do...ever. Any insights out there? Soo Bahk!! Cliff Vaught From: "Bruce Sims" Date: Sat, 7 Jul 2001 16:49:33 -0500 Subject: the_dojang: Re:Do-ju-nim (con't) Dear Mac: "...As Hwang Kee was the founder and head of the Moo Duk Kwan, the proper term is KwanJang. At least that's the only term I've ever heard or used for him. I don't think he has ever used the term DoJu Nim to describe himself and DJN.." That makes sense. GM Koo accepts the use of "grandmaster" as he knows that we Americans are not very good with the appropriate use of titles and he takes such grandiosity with much salt on his kimchi. He most commonly responds to Kwan-jang (nim) (roughly "director") indicating his position as the chief authority of his school and his association. Let me hold on this for a bit until people are able to share their thoughts on the origins or appropriate use of this term, 'kay? As it stands right now apparently someone has coined this term to identify a person who has originated an art for themselves and that seems really at odds with overall Korean tradition as I understand it. Best Wishes, Bruce _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com ------------------------------ From: Ray Terry Date: Sun, 08 Jul 2001 7:20:36 PDT Subject: Re: the_dojang: Re: Police Martial Arts > Rudy wrote: > < Martial Arts Association. When I recently observed a demo of this type of > training by GM Doug Devlin, I still did not see any resemblance to KM.>> > > What is this Association? Is it on the WWW? I havent any experience with them. The PMAA, the Police Martial Arts Association. The link to them is available from www.martialartsresource.com. Or... The Police Martial Arts Association (PMAA) digest. An e-mail distribution list for the respectful discussion of law enforcement and martial arts matters, for all those wheresoever dispersed around the globe. All are welcome! How to join the PMAA (Police Martial Arts Association) email discussion group... The list is managed by the "Majordomo" listserver software. To subscribe to pmaa-digest send e-mail to the address; majordomo@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com with subscribe pmaa-digest in the BODY of the message, top line and left justified (not in the subject line). Also, make sure your e-mail is not in HTML format, use 'Plain Text' if using Outlook or Outlook Express or send via aolmail.aol.com if you're using AOL 6.0. Brought to you by: http://www.PoliceMartialArts.com and http://www.MartialArtsResource.com ORDO IUSTE (Order Justly) Ray ------------------------------ From: Neal Konecky Date: Sun, 8 Jul 2001 07:21:56 -0700 (PDT) Subject: the_dojang: Songahm . Songahm has no basis whatsoever in the Japanese styles; G. M. Lee's intention was to create a traditional Korean martial art that was based on the classical Korean styles, and he succeeded beautifully. What is Songahm based upon? It is my understanding that the classical Korean styles habve been lost to Imperialism. Neal Konecky ===== "Our government, conceived in freedom and purchased with blood, can be preserved only by constant vigilance" William Jennings Bryan __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get personalized email addresses from Yahoo! Mail http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/ ------------------------------ From: Ray Terry Date: Sun, 08 Jul 2001 9:04:39 PDT Subject: the_dojang: eskrima-digest Just fyi... One of the other martialartsresource.com lists. Ray Do you practice Eskrima/Kali/Arnis or some other Filipino martial art? If so, why not join the Filipino martial arts e-mail distribution list, the premier internet discussion forum devoted to the FMAs. Eskrima-Digest is a ~1200 member e-mail distribution list for the respectful discussion of the Filipino martial arts, for those wheresoever dispersed around the globe. 7 years of continuous operation. The list is managed by "Majordomo". To subscribe to eskrima-digest send e-mail to the address; majordomo@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com with subscribe eskrima-digest in the BODY of the message, top line and left justified (not in the subject line). Also, make sure your e-mail is not in HTML format, use 'Plain Text' if using Outlook or Outlook Express or send via aolmail.aol.com if you're using AOL 6.0. Brought to you by http://www.MartialArtsResource.com Mabuhay ang eskrima! ------------------------------ From: JSaportajr@aol.com Date: Sun, 8 Jul 2001 11:50:07 EDT Subject: the_dojang: Re: audible breathing and finishing movements in sync In a message dated 7/3/2001 3:36:03 PM Eastern Daylight Time, the_dojang-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com writes: << re: audible breathing >> I tend to audibly exhale in competing a move in forms practice. But once I was testing before a Korean 9th Dan and he did not like that. He said in a fight with a very skilled martial artist, my opponent would have some advantage to know when I am inhaling versus exhaling, thus timing his or her attack in way that would more likely knock me out or cause the greatest damage internally. I wasn't sure what to make of this advise and I wonder if others have opinions. << General Choi instructed that in TKD, all movements finish together. That includes dropping the body weight from the sine wave motion, finishing the movement (punch, block, etc) and finishing the breathing>> I know that most karate or TKD styles advocate that all the movement in a technique finish at exactly the same instant, for example, with the punch focusing at the same instant as the step ends. In a seminar with an 8th Dan Goju master, Bill Wendell, and also from a Taekwondo master I have heard that the punch is actually more powerful if it focusses on its target just slightly, fractions of a second, after the step has completed and the front foot has settled. If the punch, or some other striking technique follows slightly the step then momentum is better utilized. Probably in the chaos of a real fight such a subtly looses relevance, but im curious whether others have heard of this and what other opinions on this might be. A related question, so boxers land their blows usually instantaneous with completing their step or just slightly after? Jose' ------------------------------ From: JSaportajr@aol.com Date: Sun, 8 Jul 2001 12:23:39 EDT Subject: the_dojang: Re: LEO thread In a message dated 7/3/2001 3:36:03 PM Eastern Daylight Time, the_dojang-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com writes: I've got over twenty years in the martial arts and am on the psychiatry faculty of Harvard Medical School. Jack Oulette is a friend and training partner of mine, he's a great guy, a good friend and quite a reasonable and intelligent person. I am troubled, though, by some of the comments about punching inmates who are child molesters until they piss blood. Child molestation is a terrible crime by people who are often evil, sometimes sick. They should be punished harshly by the courts and serve the time that the law has determined that they should serve. That sentence did not include being punched until they piss blood. Prison guards have a tough job and sometimes need to use force in self-defense and to enforce order among the violent sociopaths. But condoning the physical abuse of prisoners is wrong and it is this kind of thinking that makes more likely excessive violence among police officers as well. I dont recall our society agreeing to grant Bruce or the other gentleman who posted, I believe he was a prison guard, the authority to over ride the sentence imposed by the courts and personally meet out the sentence that they, in their somewhat grandiose self appointment, deem more appropriate. Here in Massachusetts we are uncovering a significant problem with abuse of power by correctional officers, including the sexual abuse of women prisoners by male officers, beating of male prisoners while handcuffed, etc. I would like to suggest that all of us, or any of us, not just LEOs or prison guards, but anyone put into a position of power over other humans is at risk of abusing this power. There is something in human nature that makes this likely, and it is more likely under conditions of stress and fear. I believe that LEO's and prison guards are vulnerable to this and I have no doubt that I too, and anyone else put in this position would be so vulnerable. So we need external controls and regulation to prevent or limit this. This is not a slight against LEO's or correctional officers, this is a recognition of our shared human tendencies. Perhaps martial arts training could make us less vulnerable to such abuse of power, in as much as it is based on fear or vulnerability, but Im skeptical. I once had a 7th dan Korean master tell me and laugh about how he and some other soldiers at the DMZ skinned a north Korean soldier alive. So im not sure if martial arts training makes violence less likely and increases self control. This needs to be studied empirically. Anyway, I will close this rambling with a quote from Lao Tzu in the Tao Te Ching: A brave and passionate man will kill or be killed A brave and calm man will always preserve life. Jose ------------------------------ From: JSaportajr@aol.com Date: Sun, 8 Jul 2001 13:22:25 EDT Subject: the_dojang: Re: Songahm/ATA/GM Lee. with TKD &HRD to boot In a message dated 7/7/2001 11:48:36 PM Eastern Daylight Time, the_dojang-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com writes: << Can anyone provide a personal history of the founder of the songahm style? >> Hang Ung Lee was my first Taekwondo instructor in the mid seventies, at the Omaha Karate and Judo School. It was ATA but before the days of Songham. At that time He Ill Choi from LA and Dr. Kim of Baton Rouge were also under the ATA. I am pretty sure that Haeng Ung Lee's original kwan was Jido Kwan, at least that is what we were told at the time. The comment that ATA became a style free of Japanese influence and purely Korean is absurd! I studied under Haeng Ung Lee (actually Dale Craig was more frequently our instructor, under Lee) for several years, then I moved and trained in Shotokan for several years. They were very similar. How could Lee have erased his previous knowledge of Taekwondo, including its Japanese roots and influences and create, denovo a style free of Japanese roots and influence? That's about as believable as Joo Bang Lee wiping out his Hapkido memory and teaching a style that looks just like Hapkido but then claiming in a recent interview that Hwarangdo contains No Hapkido. Incidentally, I am friends with a Korean grand master, 8th dan in taekwondo and 8th dan in hapkido who's first Hapkido instructors in Korea in the early 60s were Joo Bang Lee and his brother, Choo song Lee (not sure of the spelling, that is what it sounded like). He told me that Hwarangdo is basically Hapkido. (He also told me about how at the time there was no spinning heel kick in Taekwondo but he, and many other practitioners took the spinning heel kick from Hapkido and started using it in their Taekwondo sparring). And now, Gen Choi in the most recent interview with him that I read is disavowing the connection between Taekwondo and Shotokan, contradicting previous interviews and writings, including his original book in which this connection was clearly ackbowledged. Please! ------------------------------ From: "ISA CONSULTATION GROUP" Date: Sun, 08 Jul 2001 13:45:11 -0400 Subject: the_dojang: Re: Clothahump In Reply to: Clothahump wrote: "Songahm has no basis whatsoever in the Japanese styles; G. M. Lee's intention was to create a traditional Korean martial art that was based on the classical Korean styles, and he succeeded beautifully."...>>>> Where did GM Lee get his "stuff" for the new style called Songahm? You have to think a bit on this Mr. Clothahump, as GM Lee studied in Korea from other Koreans before coming to the USA. I used to be in the ATA back in the mid 70's before he invented his new system. What I saw him and his brothers do was pure Korean taekwondo at that time. Respectfully, George Petrotta http://taekwondo.4dw.com http://hapkido.4dw.com http://gpetrott.webjump.com ISA CONSULTATION GROUP includes ISA Martial Arts, ISA Web Design and ISA Consulting Services! _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com ------------------------------ From: "ISA CONSULTATION GROUP" Date: Sun, 08 Jul 2001 13:53:40 -0400 Subject: the_dojang: Re: Songahm/ATA/GM Lee From: Ray Terry Date: Sat, 07 Jul 2001 21:12:26 PDT Subject: Re: the_dojang: RE: Songahm/ATA/GM Lee >Can anyone provide a personal history of the founder of the songahm style? I thought Lee was Chung Do Kwan, but can't recall now why I'm thinking that. Songahm is mostly just the teaching method and forms (copyrighted, btw) used by the ATA. Yes? Ray Terry...>>>> GM Lee taught the ITF style (Chang-Hun) hyungs back in the early and mid to late 70's. Would that make him from "Oh Duk Kwan"? George Petrotta http://taekwondo.4dw.com http://hapkido.4dw.com http://gpetrott.webjump.com ISA CONSULTATION GROUP includes ISA Martial Arts, ISA Web Design and ISA Consulting Services! _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com ------------------------------ From: Emactkd@aol.com Date: Sun, 8 Jul 2001 14:53:27 EDT Subject: the_dojang: Re: Songahm and GM Lee My instructor,(GM Moon, Yang Keun) held GM Lee in great respect. I had the impression that he had known him in Korea, but I didn't ask a lot of questions. I would also like access to resources about GM Lee, and his form system. It is a major system of TKD forms in USA, and every TKD stylist ought to broaden his knowledge to include his cousins. Rick Foley ------------------------------ From: Ray Terry Date: Sun, 08 Jul 2001 13:50:32 PDT Subject: the_dojang: . ------------------------------ End of The_Dojang-Digest V8 #388 ******************************** It's a great day for Taekwondo! Support the USTU by joining today. US Taekwondo Union, 1 Olympic Plaza, Ste 104C, Colorado Spgs, CO 80909 719-578-4632 FAX 719-578-4642 ustutkd1@aol.com http://www.ustu.org To unsubscribe from the_dojang-digest send the command: unsubscribe the_dojang-digest -or- unsubscribe the_dojang-digest your.old@address in the BODY (top line, left justified) of a "plain text" e-mail addressed to majordomo@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com. Old digest issues are available via ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com. Copyright 1994-2001: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource Standard disclaimers apply.