From: the_dojang-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com To: the_dojang-digest@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Subject: The_Dojang-Digest V8 #389 Reply-To: the_dojang@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Errors-To: the_dojang-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Precedence: The_Dojang-Digest Mon, 9 July 2001 Vol 08 : Num 389 In this issue: the_dojang: Re: inmates, prison guards, and jumping to conclusions... the_dojang: Re: The_Dojang-Digest V8 #388 the_dojang: Re: movements ending in sync (correction) the_dojang: puppy names the_dojang: Songahm history the_dojang: Songaham TKD the_dojang: Re: Lao Tsu the_dojang: RE: Songahm's Grand Master H. U. Lee the_dojang: RE: Doju (nim) the_dojang: Audible breathing the_dojang: . ========================================================================= The_Dojang, serving the Internet since June 1994. ~1111 members strong! Copyright 1994-2001: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource The premier internet discussion forum devoted to the Korean Martial Arts. Replying to this message will NOT unsubscribe you. To unsubscribe, send "unsubscribe the_dojang-digest" (no quotes) in the body (top line, left justified) of a "plain text" e-mail addressed to majordomo@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com. To send e-mail to this list use the_dojang@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com See the Korean Martial Arts (KMA) FAQ and the online search engine for back issues of The_Dojang at http://www.MartialArtsResource.com Pil Seung! ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: J Thomas Howard Date: Sun, 8 Jul 2001 16:56:39 -0500 (CDT) Subject: the_dojang: Re: inmates, prison guards, and jumping to conclusions... > From: JSaportajr@aol.com > I am troubled, though, by some of the comments about punching inmates who > are child molesters until they piss blood. Child molestation is a terrible > crime by people who are often evil, sometimes sick. They should be punished > harshly by the courts and serve the time that the law has determined that > they should serve. That sentence did not include being punched until they > piss blood. Prison guards have a tough job and sometimes need to use force in > self-defense and to enforce order among the violent sociopaths. But condoning > the physical abuse of prisoners is wrong and it is this kind of thinking that > makes more likely excessive violence among police officers as well. I dont > recall our society agreeing to grant Bruce or the other gentleman who posted, > I believe he was a prison guard, the authority to over ride the sentence > imposed by the courts and personally meet out the sentence that they, in > their somewhat grandiose self appointment, deem more appropriate. [sigh] That probably explains why we don't beat prisoners where I come from. I was the "prison guard" who replied about the child molester that got beaten badly. I gave no names or details, merely that it had happened. Perhaps I should have amplified. I'll note before I amplify that I find it interesting that someone would jump to the conclusion that it was a guard who performed the beating. After all, the guards are there to uphold the rules and regulations of the institution. That is why we are there, after all. Amplification: Here's a fairly well-known fact: Most prison inmates don't like pedophiles. Being called a pedophile is an insult, most pedophiles are seen as weak, and many are pressured much, much more than any other criminal type in a prison situation. Most inmates all of types (including depraved sexual offenders, mass murders, and just plain crazy people) despise child molestors. Prison is not a fun place for anyone, and child molestors have a worse time than most. It has nothing to do with the guards (because I'll note that other than in high-profile cases, many times the guards really don't know what crime an inmate has committed---I deal with murderers every day, and guys who got busted with 1.00001 pounds of dope, and you know what? You can't really tell the difference most of the time) it has to do with the other inmates. The _only_ times I have seen a child molestor punched hard enough for him to bleed in the manner spoken of was when a certain individual who was in prison for sexually assaulting his two younger-than-five-years-old granddaughters found out that his son-in-law's brother was in the same housing unit. Unpleasantness occurred. The prison guards (who you worried about) came in and broke up the fight. That is their job. Upholding the rules and regulations of the institution. Indeed, some LEOs and prison guards are bad. In about as similar percentage as any other job. However, most DO their job, as well as they can. You are right---child molestors got sentenced to time. Not beatings, or anything similar. And, prison guards are not they to inflict retribution. Since that didn't happen, one hopes you feel better? > studied empirically. Anyway, I will close this rambling with a quote from Lao > Tzu in the Tao Te Ching: > A brave and passionate man will kill or be killed > A brave and calm man will always preserve life. I never really went with that one, since so often we are not in control of the choices of the people around us. Nor of the circumstances of the people around us. We can choose to attempt to preserve life, but our choice may not be the deciding one. Thomas (Korean martial arts posting soon to follow...) - ------------------------------------ thomcat@binary.net http://www.binary.net/thomcat/Hap.html "If you aren't modeling what you are teaching then you are teaching something else." ------------------------------ From: J Thomas Howard Date: Sun, 8 Jul 2001 17:07:37 -0500 (CDT) Subject: the_dojang: Re: The_Dojang-Digest V8 #388 > From: JSaportajr@aol.com > I know that most karate or TKD styles advocate that all the movement in > a technique finish at exactly the same instant, for example, with the punch > focusing at the same instant as the step ends. In a seminar with an 8th Dan > Goju master, Bill Wendell, and also from a Taekwondo master I have heard that > the punch is actually more powerful if it focusses on its target just > slightly, fractions of a second, after the step has completed and the front > foot has settled. If the punch, or some other striking technique follows > slightly the step then momentum is better utilized. Probably in the chaos of > a real fight such a subtly looses relevance, but im curious whether others > have heard of this and what other opinions on this might be. A related > question, so boxers land their blows usually instantaneous with completing > their step or just slightly after? Jose' Not sure about the boxer question. I'll note, however, that probably a significant contributor to the "on the step or after the step" question probably has to do with the type of step. In the style of hapkido I was taught, while we drop the weight, it isn't with the "stomping step" you can sometime hear in a number of martial arts schools. And we do strike slightly after the step---in that we put the foot down, gain the "foothold" but as the knee bends (on that front leg) to take the weight, THEN we strike. Our weight is not forward strongly on the stepping leg--the weight shifts forward after we have established that the foot has a good place to be in the beginning. As such, we still get most of the advantage of the forward momentum of the body movement behind the punch, in the direction of the punch. (As the knee bends, the body still is moving forwards.) More succinctly: We step forward---after the foot stops on the ground, the knee bends putting us into position at which point the strike lands. Done correctly, there should be a smooth flow culminating all movement at the point of impact. Done wrongly, of course, the strike turns into a useless arm punch, with no strength due to no body movement behind it. :) Styles differ on this, of course. Thomas - ------------------------- thomcat@binary.net Nebraska Hapkido Association ------------------------------ From: JSaportajr@aol.com Date: Sun, 8 Jul 2001 19:57:22 EDT Subject: the_dojang: Re: movements ending in sync (correction) Actually I misspoke on my post regarding this issue, blush, blush. It's actually the opposite. It was recommended to me that the punch land or focus on the target just before the foot lands, the foot landing fractions of a second after the punch, for maximum power. This sort of continues the momentum of the punch. This is different from what we have been taught, which is that all movements end in sync with the kime or focus of the punch or strike. I wonder if anyone else has heard this. Jose ------------------------------ From: Bernard G Redfield Date: Sun, 08 Jul 2001 20:03:08 -0400 Subject: the_dojang: puppy names Hi, We picked up our puppy at the airport,and we are still looking for a name, he is 9wks old, and a male red chow, he is a show quality chow though we bought him for the family, my wife is thinking of a chinese name to go with his breed, but we are open to sugestions. Bernard ------------------------------ From: "Mike Brock" Date: Sun, 8 Jul 2001 20:10:32 -0500 Subject: the_dojang: Songahm history Here's the GM H.U. Lee/ ATA history, as told in "the Way of Taekwondo" (the ATA magazine) winter 2000, that some of you have asked for. July, 20 1936 H.U. Lee born in Manchuria soon after WW2- return to Korea 1953?- began martial arts (I've heard that he learned some judo from his older brother??) 1954- started taking Chung Do Kwan 1955- began teaching, as a brown belt, at a junior high 1956- trained Korean military 1959- opened his first TKD school in Korea in Osan 1961- met Richard Reed who sponsored his immigration 1962- arrived in US and started teaching in Omaha, Nebraska 1969- founded ATA 1970- received 7th degree 1973- became US citizen 1975- married MRS. Sun C. Lee 1977- relocated ATA Headquarters to Little Rock, AR 1978- received 8th degree, began hosting Grand Nationals Tournaments 1980- computerized ATA 1983- Created Songahm, founded Songahm TKD Federation [STF] 1990- hosted first ATA World Championships 1990- became (actually tested for) 9th degree, became GM 1990- founded World Traditional TKD Union [WTTU] 1991- established Master H.U. Lee Scholarship Foundation 1992-2000- (some minor ATA stuff that I'm not bothering to type) October 5, 2000- died of cancer October 14, 2000- Awarded 10th degree and title of Eternal Songahm Grand Master by GM General Choi, GM Jhoon Rhee, GM Jae C. Shin, GM Jung Eun Kim, GM Won Guk Lee, GM Bong Soo Han, GM Sung Mok Ko, GM Woo Jin Jung, GM Dae Won Moon (Can anyone tell me who most of these people are? I know of GMs Choi and Rhee, but who are the rest?) 2001- Chief Master Soon Ho Lee tested for 9th degree, passed and was made the 2nd GM of the ATA The ATA forms can be found (in text form) at http://www.hollenders.com/tkd/detailed.htm Mike Brock ------------------------------ From: CKCtaekwon@cs.com Date: Sun, 8 Jul 2001 20:15:44 EDT Subject: the_dojang: Songaham TKD In a message dated 7/8/01 3:25:27 PM Central Daylight Time, the_dojang-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com writes: << Songahm has no basis whatsoever in the Japanese styles; G. M. Lee's intention was to create a traditional Korean martial art that was based on the classical Korean styles, and he succeeded beautifully. >> This comment reminds me of two things. 1. the thread we had some time back about "real" hapkido and "real" taekwondo. 2. about a man and women who a couple of years back opened an ATA school in this small Texas town where I live, and told everyone they taught "real" taekwondo and that my school taught a bogus brand of TKD. Well, I'm thrilled to say that their "real" school didn't last long. gary pieratt ------------------------------ From: "Bruce Sims" Date: Sun, 8 Jul 2001 19:35:31 -0500 Subject: the_dojang: Re: Lao Tsu Dear Jose: "....Lao Tzu in the Tao Te Ching: A brave and passionate man will kill or be killed A brave and calm man will always preserve life...." Thank you for reminding me not to offend the sensibilities of many of the Net participants. I, too, have enjoyed Lao Tzu and would like to hope that I might strive for compassion in relating to my fellow man. I have not, however, found any evidence that Lao Tzu was watching SUNDAY MORNING on CBS today when it was reported that there is an epidemic of child rapes in some African nations owing to the belief that having intercourse with a child under the age of two y/o cures the disease. Nor am I completely sure that Lao Tzu was listening when a sting operation caught the sale of a young child in which part of the dialogue included the high praise for the screams children emit when violated. Perhaps Lao Tzu was privey to the fact that child molesters have the highest rate of repeat offense of any feloney and that once violated a child can be expected to never fully recover for the balance of their natural life. This would include a higher rate of failed relationships, alcoholism and/or drug use, higher probability of being an abuse perp, lower probability of career success and a higher expression of asocial/antisocial behavior. I know for a fact that Lao Tzu has never been in my office to share those special moments when clients reveal cigarette burns, beating scars and all the horrors attendent thereto. I will say that you are absolutely right, though. To make even tongue-in-cheek comments as did I showed poor taste and a lack of sensitivity to Net participants. I think you must admit, however, that I at least did not advocate having child molesters castrated, doused with gas, set on fire and dragged through cactus until they expired. Nor did I support having them spend the balance of their incarceration in light house-keeping with two inmates named Bubba and Rufus and their assortment of wooden playthings. Such would be distasteful and I have no intention of even raising the thought of it here on the Net. I did, however, make the tasteless, insensitive comment you cited and for this I sincerely apologize. Best Wishes, Bruce ------------------------------ From: "Paul Rogers" Date: Sun, 8 Jul 2001 21:15:14 -0500 Subject: the_dojang: RE: Songahm's Grand Master H. U. Lee In one of the ATA seminars I attended, I received a wonderful document = that gave a little history about the Lee brothers and Richard Reed, the = gentleman who persuaded H. U. Lee to come to the U.S. In the background for H. U. Lee, there's a passage: "In 1954, he began learning Taekwondo on the street from a brown belt, = then enrolled at the famous Chung Do Kwan school because he realized = that he needed qualified training." It's not clear where he was at this point, but the next sentence does = indicate that in 1955, he was teaching (with his instructor's = permission) at a junior high school at his home town of Yong Dung Po, a = suburb of Seoul. Another irrelevent, but striking, bit of text is in the background of = his brother, Soon Ho Lee: "I remembered my family and I digging our graves and facing a firing = squad in China. I was 5. What strength my father had. We were = 'allowed' to live only because the Chinese villagers liked my father." Note that Soon Ho Lee became the Grand Master of the ATA this past June, = succeeding Haeng Ung Lee, who passed away October 5th, 2000. H. U. Lee = was given a posthumous honorary title of Eternal Grand Master by a = number of other Grand Masters, including Jhoon Rhee and Bong Soo Han. = Refer to http://ataonline.com/lee/bio.html .=20 I met "EGM" Lee only one time, but found him to be a wonderfully quiet, = humble, and polite person, even after hours of signing trophies for = participants at the tournament we were attending. Paul Rogers, ATA, Round Rock, TX http://www.NiblocksATA.com=20 ------------------------------ From: "Michael Rowe (outlook)" Date: Mon, 9 Jul 2001 08:34:58 -0500 Subject: the_dojang: RE: Doju (nim) The title Doju comes from the Japanese Doshu it in general means Head of System. In Aikido there have been 3 Doshu title holders: Morihei Ueshiba Kisshomaru Ueshiba Moriteru Ueshiba Doju seems to be a word that has been utilized by martial arts instructors to mean the same thing. In a conversation with GM Yong Chin Pak I have found that there are two other similar words that are used: Sunbae - Sempei (senior student or one who proceeds ahead) Hoobae - Kohai (junior student or one who follows) It is not unheard of to utilize words from countries in close proximity to each other. Michael Rowe Dan Il Kwan - Gym of Unity Unity Church of Omaha 3424 N 90th Street Omaha, Nebraska 68134 ------------------------------ From: Charles Richards Date: Mon, 9 Jul 2001 07:07:03 -0700 (PDT) Subject: the_dojang: Audible breathing Dear Jose, All things should end together; footwork, exhale, power stroke. IMVHO. I have never liked the "hissing snakes" or "prank call heavy breath" but to each his own. I can see how it might help a beginner understand that these actions are supposed to be coordinated, and when to breathe... In my younger days (before the grey hints in my beard), I was working on some blindfolded sparring. My senior students finally asked if they could take off their tops and wear just a t-shirt because they figured out I could hear their dobohk rustling before they moved. It was only later that they figured out I could hear them breathing :-) If you think of breath as energy that varies like a sine wave, then it makes sense to attack your opponent when the amplitude is low, neh? But to be able to do that in a crisis situation would require some crisis rehearsal, neh? Yours in Jung Do, Charles R. Moja Kwan __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get personalized email addresses from Yahoo! Mail http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/ ------------------------------ From: Ray Terry Date: Mon, 09 Jul 2001 7:51:00 PDT Subject: the_dojang: . ------------------------------ End of The_Dojang-Digest V8 #389 ******************************** It's a great day for Taekwondo! Support the USTU by joining today. US Taekwondo Union, 1 Olympic Plaza, Ste 104C, Colorado Spgs, CO 80909 719-578-4632 FAX 719-578-4642 ustutkd1@aol.com http://www.ustu.org To unsubscribe from the_dojang-digest send the command: unsubscribe the_dojang-digest -or- unsubscribe the_dojang-digest your.old@address in the BODY (top line, left justified) of a "plain text" e-mail addressed to majordomo@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com. Old digest issues are available via ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com. Copyright 1994-2001: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource Standard disclaimers apply.