From: the_dojang-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com To: the_dojang-digest@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Subject: The_Dojang-Digest V8 #391 Reply-To: the_dojang@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Errors-To: the_dojang-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Precedence: The_Dojang-Digest Mon, 9 July 2001 Vol 08 : Num 391 In this issue: the_dojang: RE: The_Dojang-Digest V8 #390 the_dojang: Re: Plum Village stuff the_dojang: My Training Lineage the_dojang: Songahm Re: the_dojang: My Training Lineage the_dojang: Tae Kyon the_dojang: Hapkido Questions the_dojang: Yawara Q&A the_dojang: strange invitation? the_dojang: Grand Masters the_dojang: Dojunim Re: the_dojang: strange invitation? the_dojang: . ========================================================================= The_Dojang, serving the Internet since June 1994. ~1111 members strong! Copyright 1994-2001: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource The premier internet discussion forum devoted to the Korean Martial Arts. Replying to this message will NOT unsubscribe you. To unsubscribe, send "unsubscribe the_dojang-digest" (no quotes) in the body (top line, left justified) of a "plain text" e-mail addressed to majordomo@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com. To send e-mail to this list use the_dojang@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com See the Korean Martial Arts (KMA) FAQ and the online search engine for back issues of The_Dojang at http://www.MartialArtsResource.com Pil Seung! ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Michael Rowe (outlook)" Date: Mon, 9 Jul 2001 14:38:01 -0500 Subject: the_dojang: RE: The_Dojang-Digest V8 #390 <> I have read many of his works, currently I'm on "Going Home: Jesus and Buddha as brothers." Excellent reading Michael Rowe Dan Il Kwan - Gym of Unity Unity Church of Omaha 3424 N 90th Street Omaha, Nebraska 68134 ------------------------------ From: "Bruce Sims" Date: Mon, 9 Jul 2001 14:17:08 -0500 Subject: the_dojang: Re: Plum Village stuff Dear Joes: "...infer that you dont believe that in today's world another Lao Tsu is possible? I am also curious about how many people on the list are familiar with Ticht Naht Han ..." Thats OK, I can never get that spelling right either, but I have to tell you that he is cut from a very different robe than Lao Tzu. If you rmember the legend, Lao Tzu got fed up and was headed out of town when a sentry stopped him and asked that he leave some of his wisdom for others to follow. Supposedly he did and then left for parts unknown. The project at Plum Village in France seeks to help improve the lot of humanity by "engaged Buddhism" and has nothing to do with leaving mankind's silliness behind.. Thicht Nat Hahn (see what I mean?) has been a prolific writer, lecturer and overall cheerleader for the position that Buddhism as a pacific life-style is not what the Buddha had in mind anymore than the idea of "turning the other cheek" was expected to be taken literally by Christians. Put another way, where the term "benevolent indifference" could be used to describe Buddhist deportment,and most Buddhists might emphasize "indifference," Plum Village pushes "benevolence". Best Wishes, Bruce ------------------------------ From: "Michael Rowe (outlook)" Date: Mon, 9 Jul 2001 15:23:50 -0500 Subject: the_dojang: My Training Lineage Here is a rough draft of my lineage, I have had enough requests for it recently from members of the list that I am posting it to the list so it will be in the archives :) Taekwondo Hapkido Won Kuk Lee Tae Un Lee Sokaku Takeda | | | Hae Man Park Yong Chin Pak Choi Yong Sool | | |------------ ?????????? Edward B. Sell | In Sun Seo | | | | Yong Chin Pak ----------------- John Pellegrini | | | | -------------------------------------------------- | Michael Paul Rowe -------------------------------|------------------------- | | | Shihan Robert Picket Steve Grody Bram Frank | | | Shihan Mikio Nushuchi Dan Insanto Prof. Remey Presas | | Modern Arnis Kaicho Kenjo Sensi Bruce Lee | Jeet Kune Do Principles Ito Kazu | Kanbun Ueichi Pang Gai Noon Ryu Michael Rowe Dan Il Kwan - Gym of Unity Unity Church of Omaha 3424 N 90th Street Omaha, Nebraska 68134 ------------------------------ From: Gregory Giddins Date: Mon, 9 Jul 2001 14:45:25 -0600 Subject: the_dojang: Songahm Master West said: >Ray is absolutely correct (as always) in saying that GM H. U. Lee was, in >fact, a Chung Do Kwan player, and according to some information that I >received from Dr. Kimm about 25 years ago, he was a student of Um Ung-kyu, >who was under Lee Won-kuk. So, can anyone answer the question of how GM HU Lee was able to make a Korean artform devoid of Japanese influence? I don't get what they're saying, exactly. < Songahm has no basis whatsoever in the Japanese styles; G. M. Lee's intention was to create a traditional Korean martial art that was based on the classical Korean styles,> Greg Giddins ------------------------------ From: Ray Terry Date: Mon, 09 Jul 2001 14:14:12 PDT Subject: Re: the_dojang: My Training Lineage > Shihan Mikio Nushuchi Dan Insanto Prof. Remey Presas > | | Modern Arnis Just a typo correction. I assume that should read Dan Inosanto and Remy Presas. His full name is Remegio Amador Presas. Ray Terry raymail@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com ------------------------------ From: "Patrick L" Date: Mon, 09 Jul 2001 15:37:23 -0700 Subject: the_dojang: Tae Kyon Dear Lorne, I have only seen one tape of Tae Kyon - that is one shot by Robert Young of Black Belt magazine. He shot it in the late 80's I believe. His tape also showed rhythmic movement and high kicks. I have been led to believe, by someone claiming to have studied TaeKyon in Korea in the early 60's, that it was virtually a dead art. What is being shown now; kicks above the shoulders, dancelike motion is not what he learned, and may simply be an attempt to reenergize a lost Korean art. This "reconstituted" Tae Kyon he claims bears little "fighting" resemblance to that taught by the few Hapkidoists lucky enough to interact directly with pre 70's Tae Kyon teachers. It is possible however, that the Hapkidoists "toughened up" that which they learned in the late 50's early 60's. Simply, as with most Martial Arts, but especially Korean ones, look skeptically at origins, lineages, histories, and stories. You may find more residual Tae Kyon in a Hapkido school, than on these tapes. Getting in the WAY, Patrick _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com ------------------------------ From: "Patrick L" Date: Mon, 09 Jul 2001 16:50:57 -0700 Subject: the_dojang: Hapkido Questions An interesting Post was given in answer to 11 questions about Hapkido. I would like offer some alternative input to the excellent info already given. 1) What are the colors of the belts in Hapkido ? In the 1970's they were; White, Yellow, Blue, Red, Red 1, Black. Many changes have been made since, different ones by different organizations - The belt colors don't matter. 2) What is the color of the dobok (uniform) ? In the 1960's, the only uniforms that stood up to the punishment were Judo uniforms. Since the 70's however many choices are used - The uniform colors/styles don't matter. 3) Who founded Hapkido ? Choi, Young Sool 4) Is there fighting in Hapkido ? Prior to the 70's (IMHO when tournament fighting reached its Zenith in the U.S.) Hapkidoists would say the sparring was too dangerous. Now many Hapkido schools have sparring classes. 5) Is there an international organ that controls the Hapkido ? Many organizations would like to control Hapkido - They do not. Finding a dedicated and experienced teacher is important, which organization is not important. 6) Is there a Brazilian organ that controls the Hapkido ? Not within my area of expertise. 7) How many techniques are there in Hapkido ? Is it true that there are more than 10.000 techniques ? Hapkidoists count technique differently. They count kicks by application rather than foot position. Rear leg kicks are counted as different from a front leg kicks. Those are counted as different from slide, hop, or jump, rear leg kicks which are counted as different from slide, hop, jump front leg kicks. This method of counting does not mean that there are not a lot of kicks, and I challenge anyone to make a case that a standing front leg kick is not significantly different than a rear leg jump kick. As far as there being only a few "actual" self defense technique, IMHO this is a gross over simplification. Learning to apply a self-defense technique to a punch, does not translate to leaning the same movement as being effective for a wrist grab. There are thousands of applications of technique that are studied by the Hapkidoist, frequently a similar method is employed for hugely different applications. 8) How long does it take to be "good" (black belt) at Hapkido ? If you are wildly athletic - in as little as 3 years. IMHO If you want to have a real understanding of the applications of the art - after about 15 years of teaching. 9) How old is Hapkido ? Is it true that it's over 2000 years old ? Since I attribute the founding of Hapkido to Choi, Young Sool - Hapkido is about 50 years old. The antiquity of the arts distilled into Hapkido does not matter, since the antiquity of any art does not equal quality. 10) How many weapons are used in Hapkido ? Short stick, middle length stick, long stick, cane, stone, plate, rope (kerchief or belt), knife, sword (either Japanese or Korean) 11) What are the differences between Hapkido and Aikido ? A simple answer would be that application of Hapkido is more agressive than Aikido. Another simplification would be that Aikido movements are typically larger than Hapkido. Another simplification would be that Hapkidoists kick, while Aikidoists do not. You will find that none of these answers are absolute. Patrick _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com ------------------------------ From: Ray Terry Date: Mon, 09 Jul 2001 17:29:58 PDT Subject: the_dojang: Yawara Q&A > 3) Who founded Hapkido ? > Choi, Young Sool That would be the correct answer for the Korean Yawara Q&A list. :) > 7) How many techniques are there in Hapkido ? Is it true that there are more > than 10.000 techniques ? In GM Choi's Yawara he claimed there were 3,808 techniques. Ray Terry raymail@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com ------------------------------ From: "Anthony or Clare Boyd" Date: Tue, 10 Jul 2001 09:05:00 +0900 Subject: the_dojang: strange invitation? Hello all, I was cleaning out my Bulk Mail folder this morning and I found this message between two ads for earning "Fast Cash Now". I don't know how this group got my address but I was wondering if any of you got this notice and if so, what did you think of it? I see so much of this kind of stuff on the internet that I am beginning to think that all seminars are scams. I have no idea who "Dr. Marek" but his name reminds me of the pulp fiction I used to read as a child. (Although most pulp authors could write with grammatical correctness). Anyway, I laughed when I read this ad so I thought you might as well. If this event is legit, then I'd appreciate the heads up so I can modify my thinking. - ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Tulsa, OK - The United States Martial Arts Hall of Fame & National Training Camp will be holding its annual event in Tulsa, Oklahoma on August 8, 9, 10, 11 of 2001 at the Tulsa Convention Center. This year's festivities will include the Hall of Fame Induction & Banquet, the National Training Camp, the U.S. Grand Master's Council meeting and the PowerQuest Regional Seminar. Last year The Hall of Fame inducted 193 Martial Artists from around the world. Some of the inductees were Grandmaster Fusei Kise, O Sensei Philip Porter, Grandmaster Walther von Krenner, Grandmaster Lou Perriello, Grandmaster John Pellegrini, Hector Echavarria, Mark Shuey Sr., and many other high-ranking Masters and Grandmasters from all styles in the martial arts. The National Training Camp consists of 3 1/2 days of hands on training with many internationally knows Instructors from many different Martial Arts styles. This year Bill "Superfoot" Wallace will be teaching throughout the weekend. Grandmaster Wallace is a world-renowned undefeated Pro Kickboxing legend and we very honored to have him at this years event. The U.S. Grand Master's Council will offer testing in all systems and styles each evening. A board of Grand Master's will test all participants and provide promotions based on performance and time in rank. If you have lost your instructor or are without an affiliation where you can test and be promoted fairly, then you need to attend this promotion opportunity. All participants that are promoted are eligible to receive a beautiful full color 11"x17" certificate from the U.S. Grand Master's Council with the signatures from all of the attending Grand Masters. To participate in the testing click here. mailto:DrMarek@excite.com?Subject=USGMC_Testing The PowerQuest Regional Seminar will be in the same Convention Center throughout the weekend, offering many seminars on sales training, merchandising, new retention and promotion-related products and will also premiere the brand new state-of-the-art school management tool, MartialSystem. There will also be many other vendors from the martial arts industry displaying their merchandise and new products. Tickets for this years events are as follows: Access to the expo is FREE PowerQuest seminars are $49 per person; The Hall of Fame Banquet is $50 per person. Participation in the 3.5 day National Training Camp is only $100 per person The United States Martial Arts Hall of Fame & National Training Camp would like to remind everyone that these events are open to ALL martial artists regardless of rank, system, style and that a membership is not required. For more information simply click here mailto:DrMarek@excite.com?Subject=more_Hall_Of_Fame_info Sincerely, Dr. R. Marek, Soke - ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Sorry for the length of the ad but I think you need to read the whole thing to get the full impact. - -Anthony Boyd Seoul, RoK ------------------------------ From: "Patrick L" Date: Mon, 09 Jul 2001 17:30:31 -0700 Subject: the_dojang: Grand Masters >and now you can't swing a dead cat without hitting two or three GMs.< Does that make the dead cat a Supreme Grand Master? Getting in the WAY, Patrick _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com ------------------------------ From: SunBiNim@aol.com Date: Mon, 9 Jul 2001 20:48:38 EDT Subject: the_dojang: Dojunim In a message dated 7/9/2001 2:23:57 PM Central Daylight Time, Master West writes: << On another note, I have heard many folks refer to Dr. Kimm as "DoJu Nim", but in all my dealings with him ( I believe that the first HanMuDo meeting was held in my home in 1988 or 89 ), I have never heard him refer to himself by this title, and to my knowledge, he still prefers "Dr." Kimm. >> Here is where the"Dojunim" title came from: At Dr. Kimm's 60th Birthday celebration, Doju Ji, Han-jae was there as a "guest of honor". When Doju Ji spoke to the crowd, he said that, from that point forward, it was no longer "Master", "Grandmaster", or "Dr." Kimm. He said that, as the founder of the system, he was to bear the title "Doju" and was to be addressed by his students as "Dojunim". As my good friend from England, Master Bob Banham, pointed out, "When a 10th dan talks, you listen!" It is now his official title in the World Han Mu Do Association. Although Dojunim Kimm may not even feel comfortable with the title, it was given to him by one of his teachers. I remember how uncomfortable I felt when Dojunim first addressed me as "master", but I have come to the conclusion that if my teacher gives me a title, it would be an insult not to take it. As one of his students, I feel that it is a matter of respect to honor his teacher's instructions. But believe me...to those who are not his direct students, he is quite proud of that PhD and the "Dr." that goes along with it! Steve Kincade ------------------------------ From: Ray Terry Date: Mon, 09 Jul 2001 18:35:41 PDT Subject: Re: the_dojang: strange invitation? > I was cleaning out my Bulk Mail folder this morning and I found this message > between two ads for earning "Fast Cash Now". I don't know how this group got > my address but I was wondering if any of you got this notice and if so, what > did you think of it? I don't think I received this, but Phil Porter is a well respected Judo Grandmaster, some claim he is the father of Judo in the US. Not sure what Duke Moore would have to say about that, but... Ray Terry raymail@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com ------------------------------ From: Ray Terry Date: Mon, 09 Jul 2001 18:37:10 PDT Subject: the_dojang: . ------------------------------ End of The_Dojang-Digest V8 #391 ******************************** It's a great day for Taekwondo! Support the USTU by joining today. US Taekwondo Union, 1 Olympic Plaza, Ste 104C, Colorado Spgs, CO 80909 719-578-4632 FAX 719-578-4642 ustutkd1@aol.com http://www.ustu.org To unsubscribe from the_dojang-digest send the command: unsubscribe the_dojang-digest -or- unsubscribe the_dojang-digest your.old@address in the BODY (top line, left justified) of a "plain text" e-mail addressed to majordomo@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com. Old digest issues are available via ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com. Copyright 1994-2001: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource Standard disclaimers apply.