From: the_dojang-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com To: the_dojang-digest@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Subject: The_Dojang-Digest V8 #393 Reply-To: the_dojang@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Errors-To: the_dojang-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Precedence: The_Dojang-Digest Tues, 10 July 2001 Vol 08 : Num 393 In this issue: the_dojang: HanMuDo the_dojang: Songahm, KM, etc. the_dojang: RE: Training Lineage the_dojang: T'aekkyeon Re: the_dojang: HanMuDo the_dojang: Title Do Ju the_dojang: Creating a traditional Korean Martial Art Re: the_dojang: Title Do Ju the_dojang: . ========================================================================= The_Dojang, serving the Internet since June 1994. ~1111 members strong! Copyright 1994-2001: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource The premier internet discussion forum devoted to the Korean Martial Arts. Replying to this message will NOT unsubscribe you. To unsubscribe, send "unsubscribe the_dojang-digest" (no quotes) in the body (top line, left justified) of a "plain text" e-mail addressed to majordomo@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com. To send e-mail to this list use the_dojang@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com See the Korean Martial Arts (KMA) FAQ and the online search engine for back issues of The_Dojang at http://www.MartialArtsResource.com Pil Seung! ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "hackworth" Date: Tue, 10 Jul 2001 06:54:16 -0400 Subject: the_dojang: HanMuDo JR West wrote: "Ray is absolutely correct (as always) in saying that GM H. U. Lee was, in fact, a Chung Do Kwan player, and according to some information that I received from Dr. Kimm about 25 years ago, he was a student of Um Ung-kyu, who was under Lee Won-kuk." Isn't the word "player" a little condescending to use as a title for a GrandMaster? I know that is a carry over term from Judo and KukKi Taekwondo which are only sports but isn't there a more appropriate English term for a "martial art" practitioner? Richard Hackworth www.americandragon.org All These Names Sound The Same! JR West wrote: "On another note, I have heard many folks refer to Dr. Kimm as "DoJu Nim", but in all my dealings with him ( I believe that the first HanMuDo meeting was held in my home in 1988 or 89 ), I have never heard him refer to himself by this title, and to my knowledge, he still prefers "Dr." Kimm. I think that the "DoJu" craze will be much like the title "Grandmaster" when it first appeared in the late 70's to define one person, and now you can't swing a dead cat without hitting two or three GMs." Is this new Hapkido breed related to the HanMuDo Hapkido Dojang that I saw in UiJongBu Korea in 1983? If you stood at their front door you could see the Sobu Taekwondo JaeYookKwan down the street. The Master of that school died and then a Master Choi, the Hapkido instructor from the Hanson Field House Gymnasium on Camp Casey, took over the school to keep it open. Master Choi also had a small Dojang in the 2nd Market area of TongDuChon. Richard Hackworth www.nationalhapkido.net ------------------------------ From: "Lasich, Mark D." Date: Tue, 10 Jul 2001 07:47:31 -0400 Subject: the_dojang: Songahm, KM, etc. Directly from "The Way of Traditional Taekwondo" by Haeng Ung Lee: "Songahm Taekwondo was developed to further the traditional art but not to become stuck and stagnate in tradition." In my 16+ years with the ATA I have never heard reference to making the art devoid of Japanese, or any other influence. As far as Krav Maga, the ATA recently entered into some agreement with the KM folks to make KM training accessible to ATA students. I don't believe this will be weaved into the traditional TKD curriculum, but one will have access to KM. Hope this helps somewhat. Mark Mark.Lasich@alcoa.com ------------------------------ From: "Michael Rowe (outlook)" Date: Tue, 10 Jul 2001 08:31:57 -0500 Subject: the_dojang: RE: Training Lineage Just Ray making a correction :) > Shihan Mikio Nushuchi Dan Insanto Prof. Remey Presas > | | Modern Arnis <> Yep you are correct, darn fast fingers :) Sometimes I just need to proofread before hitting send. :) Michael Rowe Dan Il Kwan - Gym of Unity Unity Church of Omaha 3424 N 90th Street Omaha, Nebraska 68134 ------------------------------ From: "Burdick, Dakin Robert" Date: Tue, 10 Jul 2001 08:33:35 -0500 Subject: the_dojang: T'aekkyeon Patrick wrote: > I have only seen one tape of Tae Kyon - that is one shot by Robert Young of > Black Belt magazine. He shot it in the late 80's I believe. His tape also > showed rhythmic movement and high kicks. > > I have been led to believe, by someone claiming to have studied TaeKyon in > Korea in the early 60's, that it was virtually a dead art. What is being > shown now; kicks above the shoulders, dancelike motion is not what he > learned, and may simply be an attempt to reenergize a lost Korean art. > > This "reconstituted" Tae Kyon he claims bears little "fighting" resemblance > to that taught by the few Hapkidoists lucky enough to interact directly with > pre 70's Tae Kyon teachers. It is possible however, that the Hapkidoists > "toughened up" that which they learned in the late 50's early 60's. Interesting. Who was it that studied the art in the 1960s? I studied T'aekkyeon back in 1987 and that style was a little different from what I saw in Robert Young's tapes. Young's tapes show a greater influence from TKD, namely forms, side kicks, and snapping front kicks. The upper ranks in the tournament tape (the ones with the vests on) look the closest to what I was doing. We still had the rhythmic movement (pumbaki) and we basically earned points in three ways through our play: one for kicking someone in the head, one for catching a kick and throwing, and one for sweeping the legs. My instructor had teaching certificates from both of the top masters at that time, including the master who had learned it before WW II, so I think that his style was probably similar to what was taught before the war. The connection with hapkido might be that the older master was doing a much more self-defense oriented art. T'aekkyon was pretty much a thug's art (for adults) or play (for kids) before WW II, from what I hear. The play version is very much like the difference between modern capoeira and old street-style capoeira. > Simply, as with most Martial Arts, but especially Korean ones, look > skeptically at origins, lineages, histories, and stories. You may find more > residual Tae Kyon in a Hapkido school, than on these tapes. Now this I don't believe. Any art, at the upper levels, becomes something different. It is the difference between front door students and backroom students. It's the same style -- but the emphasis is very different. Yours in the arts, Dakin Burdick burdickd@indiana.edu ------------------------------ From: Ray Terry Date: Tue, 10 Jul 2001 7:11:25 PDT Subject: Re: the_dojang: HanMuDo > Isn't the word "player" a little condescending to use as a title for a > GrandMaster? I know that is a carry over term from Judo and KukKi Taekwondo > which are only sports but isn't there a more appropriate English term for a > "martial art" practitioner? That was my first reaction when I heard the term used 18 years ago, but since then I've become used to it. Seems to be widely used by Koreans here in the USA, regardless of the art. Ray Terry raymail@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com ------------------------------ From: "Dunn, Danny J RASA" Date: Tue, 10 Jul 2001 08:46:13 -0500 Subject: the_dojang: Title Do Ju Ray, I know that Ji, Han Jae and Dr. Kimm use the title "Do Ju", but I don't really remember seeing it commonly used until a fairly recently. Can you tell me how long you have seen it used?" Thanks Danny Dunn >>>>>>>>>>>>> > So far the only other folks that use this title are supporters of Ji, Han > Jae (Hapkido). Your usage was the first that I had seen other than this. Han Mu Do's Dr. Kimm also uses it, among others. Ray Terry raymail@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> ------------------------------ From: "Dunn, Danny J RASA" Date: Tue, 10 Jul 2001 08:54:22 -0500 Subject: the_dojang: Creating a traditional Korean Martial Art Excuse me Mr. Woods, But exactly what classical Korean styles are Songahm tkd based on that seperate it so completely from everything else? Just wondering, cause its not obvious to me. Danny Dunn You have totally ignored one style of Taekwondo, however, that completely refutes your statement. That is the Songahm style, developed by Grand Master H. U. Lee and first demonstrated in 1983 with the first three colored belts forms, and the culmination coming in 1994 with the presentation of the 9th Degree Black Belt form. Songahm has no basis whatsoever in the Japanese styles; G. M. Lee's intention was to create a traditional Korean martial art that was based on the classical Korean styles, and he succeeded beautifully. ------------------------------ From: Ray Terry Date: Tue, 10 Jul 2001 7:38:14 PDT Subject: Re: the_dojang: Title Do Ju > I know that Ji, Han Jae and Dr. Kimm use the title "Do Ju", but I don't > really remember seeing it commonly used until a fairly recently. > > Can you tell me how long you have seen it used?" Guessing here... ~3 years. Ray Terry raymail@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com ------------------------------ From: Ray Terry Date: Tue, 10 Jul 2001 7:40:33 PDT Subject: the_dojang: . ------------------------------ End of The_Dojang-Digest V8 #393 ******************************** It's a great day for Taekwondo! Support the USTU by joining today. US Taekwondo Union, 1 Olympic Plaza, Ste 104C, Colorado Spgs, CO 80909 719-578-4632 FAX 719-578-4642 ustutkd1@aol.com http://www.ustu.org To unsubscribe from the_dojang-digest send the command: unsubscribe the_dojang-digest -or- unsubscribe the_dojang-digest your.old@address in the BODY (top line, left justified) of a "plain text" e-mail addressed to majordomo@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com. Old digest issues are available via ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com. Copyright 1994-2001: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource Standard disclaimers apply.