From: the_dojang-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com To: the_dojang-digest@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Subject: The_Dojang-Digest V8 #395 Reply-To: the_dojang@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Errors-To: the_dojang-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Precedence: The_Dojang-Digest Tues, 10 July 2001 Vol 08 : Num 395 In this issue: the_dojang: Re: The_Dojang-Digest V8 #393 the_dojang: RE: Omaha Martial Arts the_dojang: RE: Kukki Taekwondo the_dojang: "Player" the_dojang: Re: Omaha martial arts the_dojang: MA conference in Tacoma Re: the_dojang: RE: Kukki Taekwondo the_dojang: Insults the_dojang: 5 or 9? the_dojang: Re: The_Dojang-Digest V8 #393 the_dojang: Player, hanmudo and kukki TKD the_dojang: Re: Site Updates the_dojang: . ========================================================================= The_Dojang, serving the Internet since June 1994. ~1111 members strong! Copyright 1994-2001: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource The premier internet discussion forum devoted to the Korean Martial Arts. Replying to this message will NOT unsubscribe you. To unsubscribe, send "unsubscribe the_dojang-digest" (no quotes) in the body (top line, left justified) of a "plain text" e-mail addressed to majordomo@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com. To send e-mail to this list use the_dojang@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com See the Korean Martial Arts (KMA) FAQ and the online search engine for back issues of The_Dojang at http://www.MartialArtsResource.com Pil Seung! ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: SunBiNim@aol.com Date: Tue, 10 Jul 2001 15:09:19 EDT Subject: the_dojang: Re: The_Dojang-Digest V8 #393 In a message dated 7/10/2001 9:14:14 AM Central Daylight Time, Dr. Richard Hackworth writes: << Is this new Hapkido breed related to the HanMuDo Hapkido Dojang that I saw in UiJongBu Korea in 1983? >> Uhhh....no. There is an art called "Han Moo Do" in Korea, but it is a weapon's-based art, from what I understand. Han Mu Do, the art that Dr. He-young Kimm is the founder of, is not really a "new Hapkido breed", either. There are certainly many elements of Hapkido within Han Mu Do, since the founder is a ninth dan in Hapkido. However, the art is unique. Dojunim hosts a seminar at his headquarter's school in Baton Rouge, LA, every November. It might be a good trip for anyone who would like to find out more about his system. Steve Kincade ------------------------------ From: "Michael Rowe (outlook)" Date: Tue, 10 Jul 2001 14:21:04 -0500 Subject: the_dojang: RE: Omaha Martial Arts <> He was originally Chung Do Kwan. << The discussion of HU Lee's history reminds me of the history of Taekwondo in Omaha NE which is rather interesting as it was determined by HU Lee. GM Lee first arrived. He eventually brought two people over from Korea. One was Master Kim who split from GM Lee when the ATA was developed and is a member of the WTA which is headed by Sun Duk Sun. When GM Lee said that he was one of his original masters it made me wonder if GM Sun had been both Lee's and Kim's master and Kim remained loyal to GM Sun. That's speculation and I wonder if anyone has info re the history of the WTA.>> GM Kim is still loyal to the WTA and is high ranking in it. << Then GM Lee brought to Omaha Suk Ki Shin who was primarily a Judo man, to teach Judo at the Omaha Karate and Judo School. I believe that GM Shin's TKD background was with the CHung Moo Kwan.>> It was actually the Ji Do Kwan. << Anyway, he split from GM Lee to start his own TKD, Judo and HKD school and joined the WTF. GM Shin told me that when he split from GM Lee, GM Lee was so mad that he challenged GM Shin to a fight and GM Shin declined. I don't know if any one would find this interesting but given GM Lee's eventual fame I think that the early history of Korean Martial Arts in Omaha which he had such an influence on might be interesting.>> Martial Arts in Omaha has always been a bit interesting. GM Yong Chin Pak began in Omaha before going to Iowa State University. It is a melting pot of arts, we have Korean, Japanese, Okinawan, and Chinese arts available for study. Michael Rowe Dan Il Kwan - Gym of Unity Unity Church of Omaha 3424 N 90th Street Omaha, Nebraska 68134 ------------------------------ From: "Master Frank Clay" Date: Tue, 10 Jul 2001 15:51:13 -0400 Subject: the_dojang: RE: Kukki Taekwondo Rich, Having participated my self in Taekwondo for a few short years, i must agree with Dr. Hackworth. Kukkiwon is a registered member of both GAISF and the IOC as is the WTF. Both organizations are sports bodies... further, president park in 1973 designated the name Kukki Taekwondo and declared it Korea's national sport... So then, how is it that Kukki Taekwondo is not a sport? The aims and goals of sport vs martial art are entirely different. In a sport one hopes to win a medal and prestige... in martial art, one hopes not to fight, but should he do so, he trains to survive. Sports training and martial arts training both serve to train reflexes, and sub-conscious action... in ie. one teaches following a set of rules, which is quite hazardous on the street, and one does not. Plain and simple, Kukkiwon is a sports body. heck, it evenmeans national gym or something along those lines... Email me to discuss further, as I genuinely would like to hear why you say it is not a sport. Frank ------------------------------ From: "hackworth" Date: Tue, 10 Jul 2001 16:06:32 -0400 Subject: the_dojang: "Player" J.R. West wrote: "The term "player" refers to someone who has a certain mastery of an art, or for that matter, any endeavor, and comes from an old HapKiDo friend of mine in VietNam whose ultimate compliment was " he's a real 'player' ", and anyone who knows me knows that I use the term with respect." I don't think you were trying to be offensive it is just that I have never heard anyone in Korea use the term "player" for Hapkido. Is there a better term that could be used in English? HanMuDo, HanMooDo, it all sounds the same to me. These similar sounding names create confussion. J.R. West wrote: "I seriously doubt that there is any connection between the HanMuDo in Korea in 1983 and Dr. Kimm's World HanMuDo, although Master Steve Kincade could probably explain it better. The original name of Dr. Kimm's style was to be "Yuh Kwon Sool", but was changed to HanMuDo early in it's existance..." I recently heard of a style called KukSoolKwan, any chance that is part of KukSoolWon? KukKi Taekwondo Rich Hodder wrote: "Mr Hackworth, > While I respect you and the things you have done to advance the Korean > Martial Arts. I must by all means take exception to the the notion that > Kukkiwon TKD is only a sport. I have been involved for many long years and I > can tell you from that experience that only a very minicule portion of KKW > TKD is sport oriented. Those of you who know me on this list can certainly > testify to the fact that I am not just a sport TKD Dude. I would be glad to > talk with you further, privately, about what TKD is and what it perseved to > be by the "do it for the dollar"wanna be's. With respect and martial spirit, > Rich" Thanks for the offer. The term KukKi Taekwondo describes the sport Taekwondo. That does not mean that someone does not also some traditional aspect from one of the 9 original Kwans. I am well aware of what TKD IS and what it is perseved to be. But if you want to send me a private e-mail about it feel free. I have been called a lot of things (many of them in this forum) but this is the first time that I have been called a "do it for the dollar" wanna be. I teach full time. Unlike some, my dedication is full time. Martial arts is not a part of my life, it is my life. With respect and martial spirit, Richard Hackworth www.americandragon.org ------------------------------ From: JSaportajr@aol.com Date: Tue, 10 Jul 2001 16:32:31 EDT Subject: the_dojang: Re: Omaha martial arts Thanks Michael Rowe for the clarification. That's an unfortunate and not unfamiliar experience you report. I forgot one more interesting person regarding the Omaha scene, not that I think anyone is hanging on every word regarding martial arts in Omaha, but in case anyone is remotely interested. I forgot to mention Robert Bussey, who was originally one of GM Shin's TKD black belts and then went to Japan a couple of times and got into the whole Ninjitsu thing. Bussey was teaching in Freemont, NE. Is Robert Bussey still around there and active in Ninjitsu? I stand corrected re Nishiushi Sensie's Karate style. There is a lot of Uechi Ryu in MA, probably because George Matson (I think that's correct) is from here. I am curious about the issue between Uechi and Pang Gai Noon Ryu. Could you explain? Jose' ------------------------------ From: DrgnSlyr5@aol.com Date: Tue, 10 Jul 2001 16:59:26 EDT Subject: the_dojang: MA conference in Tacoma MA Bash III Tacoma, Washington July 27-29, 2001 This is a friendship conference open to practitioners of all arts and ranks. A typical presentation includes a short history and demo of an art, with the bulk of the time spent on the participants getting hands-on training in that art. The arts scheduled are Isshin Ryu Karate, Shure Te Karate, Hapkido, Aikido, Judo, Small-Circle Jujitsu, Aiki Jujitsu, and Yabe Ryu Jujitsu. The instructors all donate their time and participants pay only $30 which goes for the conference room rental fee. (When's the last time you got three days training by experienced instructors for a pittance like that?!) The conference will be held at The Days Inn in Tacoma, which has rooms at a special price for participants. For more info, please email me. DS ------------------------------ From: Ray Terry Date: Tue, 10 Jul 2001 15:00:37 PDT Subject: Re: the_dojang: RE: Kukki Taekwondo > Email me to discuss further, as I genuinely would like to hear why you say > it is not a sport. It is all in how it is taught and practiced in your dojang, yes? This gets a little old at times,,, but sure Taekwondo is viewed as a sport in Korea. Yes, it was set up to be Korea's national sport. But it seems that some would like to make more of that than is necessary, or even reasonable. We should keep in mind that many Kukki-TKD schools around the world have little to no interest in TKD's sport aspects. Ray Terry raymail@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com ------------------------------ From: Ray Terry Date: Tue, 10 Jul 2001 15:25:40 PDT Subject: the_dojang: Insults > it feel free. I have been called a lot of things (many of them in this > forum) but this is the first time that I have been called a "do it for the > dollar" wanna be. I don't think that was specifically meant for you, or any -one- person. Seemed like a generic comment to me. Perhaps I am wrong... Ray Terry raymail@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com ------------------------------ From: Ray Terry Date: Tue, 10 Jul 2001 15:31:34 PDT Subject: the_dojang: 5 or 9? > Taekwondo. That does not mean that someone does not also some traditional > aspect from one of the 9 original Kwans. Perhaps a new thread.?. 9 or 5? I always thought there were 5 original Korean kwans: Moo Duk, JiDo, Chung Do, Chang Moo, and Song Moo (in no particular order). Then some of the kwans that followed in the early 1950s were annex kwans, e.g. Oh Do being an annex kwan of Chung Do and Han Moo being an annex kwan of JiDo. Comments? Ray Terry raymail@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com ------------------------------ From: DWoods321@aol.com Date: Tue, 10 Jul 2001 18:01:46 EDT Subject: the_dojang: Re: The_Dojang-Digest V8 #393 Mr. Dunn, Actually I did not write the post about SongAhm I personally do not believe it can be devoid of Japanese influence. Some Koreans are ashamed that Tae Kwon Do has Japanese influence. This to some would cause them to "lose face" because of the history between the two nations. The only big thing that would be different between Japanese and Korean Karate would be the style of kicking and this would only be with some Tae Kwon Do schools. I have observed some Tae Kwon Do people perform kicks exactly like Karateka and others perform them the Korean way. At any rate, I can't remember who wrote the SongAhm post but I did not. Take care and God Bless! Tang Soo! David Woods ------------------------------ From: "jere-hilland" Date: Tue, 10 Jul 2001 18:48:27 -0400 Subject: the_dojang: Player, hanmudo and kukki TKD 1) The first time I heard the term 'player' used I was also about taken back. But if you listen to Master West use the term you will know that it is used as a term of respect. This comes across very well in person. 2) While in Korea, everyone, including myself, called Dr. Kimm, Dr. or Master Kimm. 3) kukki TKD. I know nothing about modern taekwondo other than what Master Hodder teaches, I did watch him in Houston once spending a significant amount of time teaching basics to an 'advanced' student at a level that was very impressive. You should see what he does for a demo:). BTW Master Hodder is a talented hapkido player and I have a great deal of respect for his technique. Jere R. Hilland www.geocities.com/hapkiyukwonsul ------------------------------ From: "Dizzy S." Date: Tue, 10 Jul 2001 18:58:54 -0400 Subject: the_dojang: Re: Site Updates Hiya Bernard. How are you? The IMA (International Martial Arts Assn) has a new webpage. Just in case ya didn't catch my email, here's the new addy www.imahq.net Cruz by and check it out. Talk to you all soon. Tang Soo! Dizz 6th gup TSD _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com ------------------------------ From: Ray Terry Date: Tue, 10 Jul 2001 16:39:02 PDT Subject: the_dojang: . ------------------------------ End of The_Dojang-Digest V8 #395 ******************************** It's a great day for Taekwondo! Support the USTU by joining today. 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