From: the_dojang-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com To: the_dojang-digest@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Subject: The_Dojang-Digest V8 #396 Reply-To: the_dojang@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Errors-To: the_dojang-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Precedence: The_Dojang-Digest Wed, 11 July 2001 Vol 08 : Num 396 In this issue: the_dojang: GM H. U. Lee - brief history the_dojang: do it for a dollar the_dojang: Player the_dojang: Hapkido Player the_dojang: Re: WTF TKD - Sport or Art the_dojang: True KSW grandmaster the_dojang: Re: Taek kyon the_dojang: HanMooDo, HanMuDo Uhhh....no the_dojang: KukKi Taekwondo the_dojang: RE:An Appropriate Use of Resources the_dojang: RE:Coming Events the_dojang: RE: Suggesting a few startling new concepts!! the_dojang: RE: KukKi Taekwondo the_dojang: Kukki TKD Re: the_dojang: KukKi Taekwondo the_dojang: To Cheree: Curious about the Master... the_dojang: . ========================================================================= The_Dojang, serving the Internet since June 1994. ~1111 members strong! Copyright 1994-2001: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource The premier internet discussion forum devoted to the Korean Martial Arts. Replying to this message will NOT unsubscribe you. To unsubscribe, send "unsubscribe the_dojang-digest" (no quotes) in the body (top line, left justified) of a "plain text" e-mail addressed to majordomo@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com. To send e-mail to this list use the_dojang@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com See the Korean Martial Arts (KMA) FAQ and the online search engine for back issues of The_Dojang at http://www.MartialArtsResource.com Pil Seung! ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Clothahump Date: Tue, 10 Jul 2001 18:42:51 -0500 Subject: the_dojang: GM H. U. Lee - brief history > > From: Ray Terry > Date: Sat, 07 Jul 2001 21:12:26 PDT > Subject: Re: the_dojang: RE: Songahm/ATA/GM Lee > > > Can anyone provide a personal history of the founder of the songahm style? > > I thought Lee was Chung Do Kwan, but can't recall now why I'm thinking that. > Songahm is mostly just the teaching method and forms (copyrighted, btw) used > by the ATA. Yes? > Sources: vol A of _The Way of Traditional Taekwondo_ by GM H. U. Lee, and vol. 8, #1 of Taekwondo World Magazine, Spring 1990: "When I was a white belt, I didn't originally train in a dojang. I learned from a brown belt with three of my friends at his home. He didn't have a backyard, so we trained in the street. We had to learn in the dark because he didn't want anyone to know of our training...." This was in 1954, when he was about 18. After training for a while with his friend, he realized that he needed advanced training, so he enrolled in the Chung Do Kwan school. In 1955, as a brown belt, he began teaching with his instructor's permission at a junior high school in his home town of Yong Dung Po, a suburb of Seoul. His instructor was Um Uoon Kyu. In 1968, General Choi had a meeting with then Master H. U. Lee. Master Lee was, at the time, teaching the PyeongAhn forms (pre-Taekwondo, Japanese based forms) to his organization of followers. General Choi taught Master Lee the first 16 Cheon-jee forms (also known as the Chahng-hun system) in 4 days and 3 nights. Master Lee did a tremendous amount of research into the old, traditional styles of Korea, most notably Taekyon and Soobak. His desire was to have a truly Korean martial art, not influenced by other martial arts styles, and with that goal in mind, he developed the Songahm style, which bears no resemblence to any other martial art style. Songahm means "pine tree and rock": the pine tree because of its place in the Korean culture as a symbol of unchanging human loyalty, longevity, respect and happiness, and the parallelism between the pine tree and the Taekwondo student. The rock represents the traditional style of Songahm Taekwondo. Although the art behind Taekwondo has been around for over 1300 years, it has been through various changes of names, philosophies and techniques. This shows its longevity, such as the longevity of a rock that can retain its shape...The rock is a symbol of unity and a solid foundation. - ------------------- Personal note - I have always found it ironic that the styleof Taekwondo that was designed to be a traditional Korean martial art was developed in the USA. But when ATA opened its first schools in Korea in the early 90s, the style was warmly received. IIRC, we have about 700 schools in Korea now, and are growing on a daily basis. GM Lee was truly a man with a vision who made that vision become reality. ------------------------------ From: "rich hodder" Date: Wed, 11 Jul 2001 00:07:19 Subject: the_dojang: do it for a dollar Mr. Hackworth, I was not attacking you personally, I am sorry if you felt that way, therefore I do apologize. I have spent a great deal of time around the country, trying to get people to understand what TKD is all about and have found many "do it for a dollar MC DOJANGS ( note that is not Mac Dojangs) that have Bastar---ised my beloved art. I take great offence at this. I was not however, trying to say you do this. Frank, Yes, the Kukkiwon has promoted TKD as a sport. But if you look for well trained (old time masters) you will find that if they have not succumb to the all mighty dollar and they trust you (as my master of more than 30 years does) they will teach you the true nature of the art. Again no offense meant, just adamant about TKD Rich _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com ------------------------------ From: mtomlins@mail.volusia.k12.fl.us Date: Tue, 10 Jul 2001 21:36:28 -0400 Subject: the_dojang: Player The first time I ever heard the term player was in 1970. I was a young Korean Karate student at Master Y.J. Chungs Academy in Dayton Ohio,, in 1970 I was 12 years old! After sparring with one of my friends during class in which both of us were about the same level and both of us were very aggressive. You know how two 12 year old boys can be. After class Master Chung said to both of us that we were no longer just students taking classes but that we had to be serious all the time in our training because he now considered us more than students,,, he said we were "players",, I really didn't know quite what he meant but I took it as a compliment because up until that time he had only yelled at me and kicked me. He never ever called me by my name he just yelled come here boy! But I can remember that "player" term very well because it was quite different than what he usually called me. So I guess that phrase has been around for a long time. If I tell my wife that I am a player, she would kick me just like Master Chung use to, but for a different reason!! Michael Tomlinson ******************************************************************************* This email and any files transmitted with it are confidential and intended solely for the use of the individual or entity to whom they are addressed. If you have received this email in error please notify the system manager at administrator@volusia.k12.fl.us. ******************************************************************************* ------------------------------ From: CKCtaekwon@cs.com Date: Tue, 10 Jul 2001 21:46:15 EDT Subject: the_dojang: Hapkido Player In a message dated 7/10/01 6:12:05 PM Central Daylight Time, the_dojang-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com writes: << J.R. West wrote: "The term "player" refers to someone who has a certain mastery of an art, or for that matter, any endeavor, and comes from an old HapKiDo friend of mine in VietNam whose ultimate compliment was " he's a real 'player' ", and anyone who knows me knows that I use the term with respect." Hackworth wrote: I don't think you were trying to be offensive it is just that I have never heard anyone in Korea use the term "player" for Hapkido. Is there a better term that could be used in English? >> Knowing Master West's reputation and very high standards, etc, I would consider it an honor if he told someone that I was "a real player". gary pieratt ------------------------------ From: JSaportajr@aol.com Date: Tue, 10 Jul 2001 22:44:32 EDT Subject: the_dojang: Re: WTF TKD - Sport or Art After many years in TKD (ITF & WTF) and a KuKiWon 3rd Dan, I had come to the opinion that WTF TKD had become a sport and not a martial art and so I shifted my training focus to jujitsu and over the last several years, to Hapkido. I have recently come to question my conclusion though. This reevaluation came after my TKD instructor, Master Steven Carrasco, attended the instructor certification course at the Kukiwon. I was surprised to learn that there was a significant under-emphasis on Olympic style sparring, though they did learn a fair number of drills. The overwhelming emphasis was on the practice and perfection or poomse or forms. The focus was on detailed perfection of every move, not unlike the Japanese emphasis on perfection of form in the Tea Ceremony or drawing the sword. Also, another of my teachers, Grand Master Young Kwon has often said that the Taekwondo black belt should practice all of his or her forms every day, and that a Taekwondo master's form is like a military man's uniform. The uniform must be perfect, if the uniform is untidy or ill kept then the military man looses respect ad credibility. The same is true of a Taekwondo master's form, it must be perfect. GM Kwon recently had a young man visit from Yudo College who is Kuki Taekwondo and his whole area of focus is on form. Another Korean grand master told me that in Korea the person with perfect execution of poomse is more respected and valued than the tournament champion, and Master Carrasco found the attitude at the Kukiwon to be consistent with this statement. Thus, while I think that the emphasis on Olympic style sparring has diluted the martial art aspects of TKD and I believe that WTF TKD is limited in terms of self-defense, it is in this sense, the emphasis on perfection of form in its minute detail, that qualifies WTF TKD as a martial ART. On the other hand, gymnastics is a sport and also emphasizes perfection of form in its most minute detail, so perhaps this argument is flawed. Im curious where others stand on this. Jose ------------------------------ From: Lorne Keatley Date: Tue, 10 Jul 2001 23:44:07 -0400 Subject: the_dojang: True KSW grandmaster Hi all, Someone posted earlier that Suh, In Hyuk is not the true grandmaster of Kuk Sool Won. The poster said the true grandmaster is in Canada, and that they have much more material than the "watered-down" Kuk Sool Won that Suh teaches. I have been involved with KSW for fifteen years, and although I am no longer a part of the WKSA I have trained and ranked though the WKSA. I am interested in what the poster has to say, but there was no elaboration. I believe that the poster probably has dealing with the World Dahn Moo Do Association which teaches a version of KSW in Canada. I am especially interested in the extra material. What does this entail. I want to be sure that I am not speaking out of turn when I say I am ranked in KSW and have not learned this 'lost' material. By the way, I have trained with every high-ranking master as well as been their partner for demos so i will be able to tell you if KSW has the material or not. You never know what knowledge resides in the higher levels until you get there. Either way, very interested. Lorne National Korean Martial Arts Association ------------------------------ From: Lorne Keatley Date: Tue, 10 Jul 2001 23:45:02 -0400 Subject: the_dojang: Re: Taek kyon Dear Patrick and Dakin, You are correct. Taek kyon is moving in a direction towards using similar techniques as Kukki taekwondo. This is primarily done by the largest association dealing with the art namely, Korea Taekkyon Association. My friend who sent me the tape is distressed ad the GM of this association, Lee Yong-bok is actually throwing techniques out in order to make it suitable for use as physical exercise. These are the moves such as eye gouges and other aggressive techniques that are counter to the image of Taekkyon as a sport to promote world peace. This is directly from KTA, not my personal opinion. Although Taekkyon does have high kicking techniques, the focus is moving to these techniques because of the popularity of Taekwondo in both Korea and abroad. The textbook I have shows many techniques akin to English/Welsh purring. This is mainly due to strikes to the joints in the legs. There is also considerable techniques for sweeping as well as unbalancing grappling techniques which happen to be very Hapkidoesque. (Thanks to Master west for the use of that one) KTA wants to promote Taekkyon as the 2000 year old version of Taekwondo. (No don't want to go there. There are numerous associations that all have different techniques, different curriculums, as well as different views of the art. Imagine a Korean wracked with controversy. I trust the book is fairly close to Taekkyon as it was practiced long ago as it features Song Duk-ki. Song Duk-ki is the gentleman who purportedly learned the art in his youth and kept the knowledge until in his eighties when he searched for a student to pass on his knowledge to. This student was Shin, Han-sung. Together they promoted Taekkyon and achieved government recognized status. Unfortunately, they both passed on in 1987. And as such the third generation began to splinter and this has continued. It seems that Song Duk-ki is the root that Taekkyon sprung from as there seems to be agreement across the different associations so I imagine that is how it happened. Hope this clears things up. Lorne ------------------------------ From: "hackworth" Date: Wed, 11 Jul 2001 06:24:43 -0400 Subject: the_dojang: HanMooDo, HanMuDo Uhhh....no Someone wrote: "Uhhh....no. There is an art called "Han Moo Do" in Korea, but it is a weapon's-based art, from what I understand. Han Mu Do, the art that Dr. He-young Kimm is the founder of, is not really a "new Hapkido breed", either. There are certainly many elements of Hapkido within Han Mu Do, since the founder is a ninth dan in Hapkido. However, the art is unique." The school that I saw in Korea was called "HanMuDo Hapkido". HanMuDo and HanMooDo are both spelled the same in Hangul (Korean). Uhhh....yes. Sorry if anyone was mislead. I just thought that with Dr. Doju Kimm being Korean maybe had an affiliate school in Korea. I know that he does travel back and forth to Korea and I have heard many good things about him from people here in the U.S. Normally when an organization has the word "World" in their name such as World HanMuDo Association, that they have members in more than one country. Richard Hackworth www.americandragon.org Korean Martial Arts??? What makes an art a Korean art? Is it because it is founded on priciples found in other Korean arts. Like Combat Hapkido or MooYeKwan was. Or is it only if it is founded by a person of Korean heritage such as GM Choi, Young Sool and Major General Choi, Hong Hi who studied Japanese arts before founding their own arts. Richard Hackworth http://ma_success.tripod.com ------------------------------ From: "hackworth" Date: Wed, 11 Jul 2001 06:39:28 -0400 Subject: the_dojang: KukKi Taekwondo Ray Terry wrote: "It is all in how it is taught and practiced in your dojang, yes? > > This gets a little old at times,,, but sure Taekwondo is viewed as a sport in > Korea. Yes, it was set up to be Korea's national sport. But it seems that > some would like to make more of that than is necessary, or even reasonable. > > We should keep in mind that many Kukki-TKD schools around the world have > little to no interest in TKD's sport aspects." How can you say that??? The term "KukKi Taekwondo" was originated to identify sport Taekwondo separately from what the Kwans teach. If they are teaching something other than the sport then they are teaching one of the Kwan systems and not the sport. If you have little or no interest in the sport aspects then why would you call your self "KukKi Taekwondo"? You don't see airlines calling themselves bus services just because they don't want to be associated with the negative publicity from airplane crashes. If you aren't doing the sport just call yourself "Taekwondo" it is rather simple. Richard Hackworth www.americandragon.org ------------------------------ From: Bruce.Sims@med.va.gov Date: Wed, 11 Jul 2001 07:17:53 -0500 Subject: the_dojang: RE:An Appropriate Use of Resources Dear Folks: I had an interesting, and a very common experience last night. I was returning a phone call from an individual who left me a message indicating that he was curious about my Hapkido classes. More correctly, he was interested in talking about what sort of demands that my classes would place on his resources (time, money, physical exertion, etc.) As I say, its a pretty common experience for me and probably for a lot of you that want to make a commecial effort of your martial art endeavors. I mention this because I wonder at the possible parallels between what that young man presented to me, and what I am seeing presented for discussion here on DD with increasing frequency. To be more specific, I am wondering if anyone else is seeing and hearing a kind of pre-occupation with the trappings of MA rather than the substance of the arts themselves. Maybe its just me, but somehow it seems that we are providing more bandwidth to battling back and forth about who people are and the claims that they make rather than what they do or the way that they do it. In like manner, there seems to be more time spent in challenging titles and standings rather than identifying what those titles and standing should be developing for the MA population. (By way of example let me tell you that birthday party not withstanding, I don't take kindly to somebody telling me what title of address I will use towards somebody I deeply respect by all accounts. Dr Kimm is "Dr. Kimm" to me not because somebody conferred a PhD on him but because of his extraordinary contributions to Korean culture generally and MA specifically. The man is a giant and I didn't need some contrived title to tell me that.) Having said this I am wondering if our time would not be better spent discussing the nature of what someone like M Hwang Kee brings to the table vs whatever claims he may be making regarding the authenticity of his art? In like manner, is it really worth the bandwidth to discuss the appropriateness of the term "player." By way of comparison, I asked about having someone catelogue the over-3,000 techniques of Hapkido-- a pretty common bit of oral tradition as these things go and got nothing. Ray was kind enough to produce some material regarding some commonly asked questions about Hapkido which included the use of the title "do-ju-nim". Apparently people have more time to discuss who gets this appelation than why it is so grossly inappropriate within the context of Korean culture or any of the rest of the material in that post for that matter. I could go on, but I think you get the idea. When I get those calls from people who want to dibble and dabble about Hapkido I make sure that I keep my patience and a salt shaker close at hand. Thats because most of these folks that call are not as interested in Hapkido as they are in hearing themselves converse about it with a practitioner and for a few minutes be part of that constellation without having to actually sacrifice any or their precious personal resources. Please let me know that we are able to make more of this venue than merely an opportunity for picking each others nits, yes? Best Wishes, Bruce ------------------------------ From: Bruce.Sims@med.va.gov Date: Wed, 11 Jul 2001 07:24:10 -0500 Subject: the_dojang: RE:Coming Events Dear DS: "...The arts scheduled are Isshin Ryu Karate, Shure Te Karate, Hapkido, Aikido, Judo, Small-Circle Jujitsu, Aiki Jujitsu, and Yabe Ryu Jujitsu...." Is this the same symposium that S Don Angier will be presenting at? Now, THATS somebody I would like to see. BTW: S Kondo of the DRAJJ is coming to Baltimore, MD. and there is another symposium in St Louis that will be drawing some rather tall figures in the field of Japanese Budo in October. Seems like there is a lot of truely great opportunities coming up in the next couple of months. Best Wishes, Bruce ------------------------------ From: Bruce.Sims@med.va.gov Date: Wed, 11 Jul 2001 07:38:39 -0500 Subject: the_dojang: RE: Suggesting a few startling new concepts!! Dear Ray: "...> Email me to discuss further, as I genuinely would like to hear why you say > it is not a sport. It is all in how it is taught and practiced in your dojang, yes?..." Please allow me to barge in here as I just finished making a rather lengthy comment on just this matter. Point 1.-- Why take this discussion off-line when you could do us a great service by explaining just how you see the difference between sport and combat training? Point 2 -- Why not take some time to examine the biomechanics, timing and focus required to use TKD as a form of self-defense. Perhaps you could even go into detail about its relative short-comings in combat. Point 3 -- This would be a great opportunity to revisit the relative efficacy of TKD's karate under-pinnings, the pre-WW2 heritage of Taek Kyon, Soo Bahk. Point 4 -- How about a comparative examination of approaches and philosophy between stylistically distinct expressions of TSD/TKD? Point 5 -- And here's a really possibility-- how about at least one less post regarding who and what organization is authentic. How about we trust that given information MA on this Net can actually draw their own conclusions if given information. Of course, its just a thought. Best Wishes, Bruce ------------------------------ From: "Peter Kim" Date: Wed, 11 Jul 2001 08:34:47 -0400 Subject: the_dojang: RE: KukKi Taekwondo The term "KukKi TaeKwonDo" doesn't mean much. Only thing it means is TaeKwonDo is Korea's national sport/martial art. It has no other meanings. It doesn't mean that it's sports or martial art. It doesn't mean certain type of TaeKwonDo style. KukKiWon, is just a place where central governing body for TaeKwonDo reside in Korea. It's a building, nothing more. Most black belts, if not all black belts, in Korea has to go to KukKiWon to take their black belt test, or at least that was way it was when I was in Korea back 20 some odd years ago. When I took TKD in Korea, KukKiWon was just that, a building, a place where you go to take your black belt test. Peter Kim ------------------------------ From: Dave Weller Date: Wed, 11 Jul 2001 08:09:29 -0500 Subject: the_dojang: Kukki TKD this discussion ensued in the digest: with generous snipping: >From: "Master Frank Clay" >Rich, > >Having participated my self in Taekwondo for a few short years, i must agree >with Dr. Hackworth. Kukkiwon is a registered member of both GAISF and the >IOC as is the WTF. Both organizations are sports bodies... further, >president park in 1973 designated the name Kukki Taekwondo and declared it >Korea's national sport... > >So then, how is it that Kukki Taekwondo is not a sport? The aims and goals >of sport vs martial art are entirely different. In a sport one hopes to win >a medal and prestige... in martial art, one hopes not to fight, but should >he do so, he trains to survive. Sports training and martial arts training >both serve to train reflexes, and sub-conscious action... in ie. one teaches >following a set of rules, which is quite hazardous on the street, and one >does not. >Plain and simple, Kukkiwon is a sports body. heck, it evenmeans national gym >or something along those lines... >KukKi Taekwondo >Thanks for the offer. The term KukKi Taekwondo describes the sport >Taekwondo. That does not mean that someone does not also some traditional >aspect from one of the 9 original Kwans. I am well aware of what TKD IS and >what it is perseved to be. But if you want to send me a private e-mail about >it feel free. I have been called a lot of things (many of them in this >forum) but this is the first time that I have been called a "do it for the >dollar" wanna be. I teach full time. Unlike some, my dedication is full >time. Martial arts is not a part of my life, it is my life. > >With respect and martial spirit, >Richard Hackworth >www.americandragon.org > I guess it depends on how you look at it. My Grandmaster says Taekwondo is "sport, art, and self defense". There is certainly the Olympic/sport aspect of Kukki TKD. But I fail to see how that aspect lessens the ART & SELF DEFENSE I learn in the Dojang each week. Cripes, I'll certainly never be an Olympian. I participate in an occasional tournament. Yet tournaments are hardly the reason I train. I train because I love the ART. My masters and grandmaster can teach the sport aspect quite well, yet I have never seen them emphasize sport over the practical,self-defense side of this ART. I realize many schools that are Kukkiwon affiliated do focus on the sport part of my art. Think about it though, this is an olympic event now, why would there NOT be schools dedicated to producing olympic competitors ? There is a young man who trained at our main school who is an elite competitor in international events, but I guarantee you his training included the traditional as well as the sport parts of TKD. Call it what you like, it does not change in the least what we actually learn, nor lessen it's value. have a groovy day, dave weller student wtf tkd "Practice a thousand hours and you learn self discipline. Practice ten thousand hours and you learn about yourself." Myamoto Musashi ------------------------------ From: Ray Terry Date: Wed, 11 Jul 2001 6:56:53 PDT Subject: Re: the_dojang: KukKi Taekwondo > > We should keep in mind that many Kukki-TKD schools around the world have > > little to no interest in TKD's sport aspects." > > How can you say that??? Very simple. I have been a student in, visited, or talked to via this list and others many a student or instructor from such a dojang. Again, many, perhaps very many, Kukki-TKD schools have no interest in sport TKD. Is there any doubt? No. Ray Terry raymail@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com ------------------------------ From: "Lasich, Mark D." Date: Wed, 11 Jul 2001 09:25:57 -0400 Subject: the_dojang: To Cheree: Curious about the Master... To Cheree: I was just curious if there was any outcome from the incident you reported where one of the Masters 'blew up' at a tournament. I know there was a lot of input to your concerns, but I don't recall any update. If there is anything worth sharing, the list might be interested. Too often people are not required to take responsibility for their own actions. It would be nice to hear what happened to this Master, although I suspect the answer is 'nothing'. Thanks, Mark Mark.Lasich@alcoa.com ------------------------------ From: Ray Terry Date: Wed, 11 Jul 2001 7:03:50 PDT Subject: the_dojang: . ------------------------------ End of The_Dojang-Digest V8 #396 ******************************** It's a great day for Taekwondo! Support the USTU by joining today. US Taekwondo Union, 1 Olympic Plaza, Ste 104C, Colorado Spgs, CO 80909 719-578-4632 FAX 719-578-4642 ustutkd1@aol.com http://www.ustu.org To unsubscribe from the_dojang-digest send the command: unsubscribe the_dojang-digest -or- unsubscribe the_dojang-digest your.old@address in the BODY (top line, left justified) of a "plain text" e-mail addressed to majordomo@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com. Old digest issues are available via ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com. Copyright 1994-2001: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource Standard disclaimers apply.