From: the_dojang-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com To: the_dojang-digest@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Subject: The_Dojang-Digest V8 #397 Reply-To: the_dojang@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Errors-To: the_dojang-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Precedence: The_Dojang-Digest Wed, 11 July 2001 Vol 08 : Num 397 In this issue: the_dojang: Master Hodder and sport TKD the_dojang: RE: Omaha Martial Arts Re: the_dojang: Re: WTF TKD - Sport or Art the_dojang: GM Son the_dojang: Dojang FAQ? the_dojang: Re: The_Dojang-Digest V8 #396 Re: the_dojang: Dojang FAQ? the_dojang: t'aekkyeon & Kuksul the_dojang: What makes a MA a sport or an art.. the_dojang: Furthering MA... the_dojang: San Francisco Dojang Search the_dojang: Re: The_Dojang-Digest V8 #396 the_dojang: TKD in the Olympic Games the_dojang: Thich Nhat Hanh Re: the_dojang: San Francisco Dojang Search the_dojang: Communication Breakdown the_dojang: Bruce Sims the_dojang: Songahm TKD the_dojang: . ========================================================================= The_Dojang, serving the Internet since June 1994. ~1111 members strong! Copyright 1994-2001: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource The premier internet discussion forum devoted to the Korean Martial Arts. Replying to this message will NOT unsubscribe you. To unsubscribe, send "unsubscribe the_dojang-digest" (no quotes) in the body (top line, left justified) of a "plain text" e-mail addressed to majordomo@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com. To send e-mail to this list use the_dojang@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com See the Korean Martial Arts (KMA) FAQ and the online search engine for back issues of The_Dojang at http://www.MartialArtsResource.com Pil Seung! ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Charles Richards Date: Wed, 11 Jul 2001 06:41:15 -0700 (PDT) Subject: the_dojang: Master Hodder and sport TKD Dear List, One must remember that Master Hodder has been practicing Tae Kwon Do for three and a half decades. Granted he has competed in and won a number of Colorado State USTU and AAU Tae Kwon Do Championships. But, having met him and trained with him, I can say sport TKD is not his only focus. In fact I would have to consider him a "real player" in both HKD and TKD (I haven't trained with him in escrima yet so I can't say anything about that). Now in that three plus decades he has witnessed the split of MDK TKD and TSD (right about when he started training), the creation of the WTF, and the creation of both Taeguk and Palgue hyungs. I'd say if you wanted to know what Tae Kwon Do is in practice, he'd be one of the few Americans you could ask, neh? Having practiced both Tae Kwon Do and Tang Soo Do, I can only say the focus of a particular program has more to do with the Sabum Nim (Instructor preference) and individual Kwan (local school) than the NGB (hoi/hwe). One good thing I can say about WTF TKD is that at least those who choose to compete in the sport of TKD have a consistent and published set of rules to go by. I hate to admit it but us TSD guys still haven't done that yet. And we do not have an international unifying body to set minimum standards for anything. Please don't take this as an attack on anyone, but it seams like TSD/SBK MDK keeps splitting while Kukkiwan TKD players have achieved some unification...hmmm Train with Jung Do in your hearts The rest is commentary, Charles Richards Moja Kwan TSD __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get personalized email addresses from Yahoo! Mail http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/ ------------------------------ From: "Michael Rowe (outlook)" Date: Wed, 11 Jul 2001 08:58:41 -0500 Subject: the_dojang: RE: Omaha Martial Arts << I forgot one more interesting person regarding the Omaha scene, not that I think anyone is hanging on every word regarding martial arts in Omaha, but in case anyone is remotely interested. I forgot to mention Robert Bussey, who was originally one of GM Shin's TKD black belts and then went to Japan a couple of times and got into the whole Ninjitsu thing. Bussey was teaching in Freemont, NE. Is Robert Bussey still around there and active in Ninjitsu?>> Actually from what I can gather from area artists of the time. Mr. Bussey studied Taekwondo/Korean Karate under the the umbrella of GM Kim. Also He studied Kobudo under Shian Nishiushi. Robert Bussey is no longer actively teaching but has an organization teaching his style - Robert Bussey Warrior International. I briefly studied with Mr. Bussey in 1984-85 before enlisting in the Navy. << I stand corrected re Nishiushi Sensie's Karate style. There is a lot of Uechi Ryu in MA, probably because George Matson (I think that's correct) is from here. I am curious about the issue between Uechi and Pang Gai Noon Ryu. Could you explain? Jose'>> Well the art that Kanbun Uechi brought from Fuken Provience China was called Pang Gai Noon and has its strength from the Tiger, Dragon and Crane. When Kanbun died and passed on the leadership to kanei Uechi Kanei decided to rename the art to Uechi ryu to honor his father. However, many instructors did not agree. Pang Gai Noon Ryu Karate-Do was good enough for Kanbun it should remain that way. So there was a split of Pang Gai Noon and Uechi Ryu. Later in Pang Gai Noon Ryu the majority of the leadership was in japan and wanted to update the name. For a while many instructors began to call it Koh Nah Ryu which is the japanese pronuncation of the same characters that say Pang Gai Noon. (as an example Karate-Do = Tang Soo Do ) ------------------------------ From: "Melissa Lambton" Date: Wed, 11 Jul 2001 15:03:08 +0100 Subject: Re: the_dojang: Re: WTF TKD - Sport or Art Sir, May I ask why you gave up ITF TKD? I believe that ITF TKD is more of an art than WTF TKD. Or am I just biased? Taekwon. Melissa 1st degree ITF TKD > From: JSaportajr@aol.com > Date: Tue, 10 Jul 2001 22:44:32 EDT > Subject: the_dojang: Re: WTF TKD - Sport or Art > > After many years in TKD (ITF & WTF) and a KuKiWon 3rd Dan, I had come to the > opinion that WTF TKD had become a sport and not a martial art and so I > shifted my training focus to jujitsu and over the last several years, to > Hapkido. I have recently come to question my conclusion though. This > reevaluation came after my TKD instructor, Master Steven Carrasco, attended > the instructor certification course at the Kukiwon. I was surprised to learn > that there was a significant under-emphasis on Olympic style sparring, though > they did learn a fair number of drills. The overwhelming emphasis was on the > practice and perfection or poomse or forms. The focus was on detailed > perfection of every move, not unlike the Japanese emphasis on perfection of > form in the Tea Ceremony or drawing the sword. Also, another of my teachers, > Grand Master Young Kwon has often said that the Taekwondo black belt should > practice all of his or her forms every day, and that a Taekwondo master's > form is like a military man's uniform. The uniform must be perfect, if the > uniform is untidy or ill kept then the military man looses respect ad > credibility. The same is true of a Taekwondo master's form, it must be > perfect. GM Kwon recently had a young man visit from Yudo College who is Kuki > Taekwondo and his whole area of focus is on form. Another Korean grand master > told me that in Korea the person with perfect execution of poomse is more > respected and valued than the tournament champion, and Master Carrasco found > the attitude at the Kukiwon to be consistent with this statement. Thus, while > I think that the emphasis on Olympic style sparring has diluted the martial > art aspects of TKD and I believe that WTF TKD is limited in terms of > self-defense, it is in this sense, the emphasis on perfection of form in its > minute detail, that qualifies WTF TKD as a martial ART. On the other hand, > gymnastics is a sport and also emphasizes perfection of form in its most > minute detail, so perhaps this argument is flawed. Im curious where others > stand on this. > > Jose ------------------------------ From: "Diane Goodman" Date: Wed, 11 Jul 2001 10:00:30 -0400 Subject: the_dojang: GM Son "JSapotajr" wrote: "Does anyone know what the original Kwan was from Grand Master Son Duk Sun (Duk, Son Sun - sorry, I do not have the correct spelling but the name is readily recognizable)? " His name is spelled Son Duk Sung, but he uses the "Americanized" form Duk Sung Son. He was my teacher for eight years when I lived in New York City in the '70s. I remember that he had a glass case of plaques and memorabilia, one of which was a letter from then-president Richard Nixon thanking him for doing a demonstration or something at the White House, with the greeting "Dear Mr. Duk." (Obviously Rose Mary Woods was not up on Korean names.) I believe he was in his early 50s when I knew him. Is he still with us? Diane ------------------------------ From: Creed71963@aol.com Date: Wed, 11 Jul 2001 10:16:18 EDT Subject: the_dojang: Dojang FAQ? Since we seem to be hammering on some of the same points, (GM's background what certain terms or titles mean) and the staggering number of organizations that are out there, is there a need for a dojang_list FAQ? A place where some of these questions can be directed to? Is there a website where there is a listing of the KMA GM's with biographies? While I have reconized some of the GM that have been discussed, I find myself becoming confused about which GM is being discussed. Craig ------------------------------ From: Korugi@aol.com Date: Wed, 11 Jul 2001 10:22:05 EDT Subject: the_dojang: Re: The_Dojang-Digest V8 #396 In a message dated 7/11/01 9:41:15 AM Eastern Daylight Time, the_dojang-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com writes: << How can you say that??? The term "KukKi Taekwondo" was originated to identify sport Taekwondo separately from what the Kwans teach. . Richard Hackworth www.americandragon.org >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> You got to be kidding! Kukki means Nations Martial Art not Sport! Kuk = Nation Ki = is in reference to Ki in Martial Art Didn't you advertise you issue Kukkiwon Dan Certificates in TKD Times and BB few years back. Why would you issue BB certificate you have no respect for? It seems you are very Anti Kukkiwon and TKD. First time poster. Jake ------------------------------ From: Ray Terry Date: Wed, 11 Jul 2001 8:05:45 PDT Subject: Re: the_dojang: Dojang FAQ? > Since we seem to be hammering on some of the same points, (GM's background > what certain terms or titles mean) and the staggering number of organizations > that are out there, is there a need for a dojang_list FAQ? A place where some > of these questions can be directed to? There is the KMA FAQ mentioned in each digest header. Is that what you're looking for? Ray Terry raymail@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com ------------------------------ From: "Burdick, Dakin Robert" Date: Wed, 11 Jul 2001 09:34:33 -0500 Subject: the_dojang: t'aekkyeon & Kuksul Lorne wrote: > Someone posted earlier that Suh, In Hyuk is not the true grandmaster of > Kuk Sool Won. The poster said the true grandmaster is in Canada, and > that they have much more material than the "watered-down" Kuk Sool Won > that Suh teaches. >.... I believe that the poster probably has dealing with the > World Dahn Moo Do Association which teaches a version of KSW in Canada. > I am especially interested in the extra material. If the person really is associated with Dahn Moo Do, then probably the best person to get in touch with is Ivan Bergeron. He trained under GM In-Seok Pak, who was heavily involved with early Kuksulweon history and always claimed that he and another hapkido instructor had formed Kuksulweon and then brought in GM Suh to incorporate the forms and hand movements of Praying Mantis kung-fu. Of course, Rudy Timmerman here on the Digest was also a longtime student of GM Pak, so you could also ask him. If anyone could clear up that whole hapkido-hwarangdo-kuksulweon mess, I'd love to hear about it, but it may be beyond our powers here in the States. >You never know what knowledge resides in the higher levels > until you get there. I've got to say, I really dislike this sort of statement. It implies that there are "secrets" you will only discover later on, and that all this training you've been doing will make sense and be useful. I think that that sort of crud builds far too many cults here in the U.S. If an art is effective, teach it. Build on it over the years, and of course the longer you practice, the more you learn. But you should be able to tell from the most experienced practitioners and what THEY do if an art is worthwhile or not. Lorne also writes regarding t'aekkyeon: > The textbook I have shows many techniques akin to English/Welsh > purring. Which text are you looking at? I've got a bunch at home, so I can dig it out and compare. It sounds like it is Song Duk-Ki's manual, which is an excellent one, but since purring was kicking people in the shins with steel-toed mining boots, I think I can safely say that t'aekkyeon was not like that. All of the low kicks I learned were sweeps, not destructions. > Song Duk-ki is the gentleman who purportedly learned the art in his > youth and kept the knowledge until in his eighties when he searched for > a student to pass on his knowledge to. This student was Shin, > Han-sung. Together they promoted Taekkyon and achieved government > recognized status. Unfortunately, they both passed on in 1987. Yep. I studied under Do Ki-Hyun, who earned his teaching certificate from both of these men, and who now runs a traditional t'aekkyeon association in Seoul. Yours in the arts, Dakin Burdick burdickd@indiana.edu ------------------------------ From: "Peter Kim" Date: Wed, 11 Jul 2001 10:37:44 -0400 Subject: the_dojang: What makes a MA a sport or an art.. Seems like there has been lot of talk regarding TKD being a sport or a collection of technique, instead of being a martial art. But, if you think about it, it's not the TKD that is in question, but people who are practicing the TKD that makes the TKD an art, a sport, or a collection of technique. It's how you approach the TKD that make the difference. When I took TKD back in Korea, I thought TKD was just a collection of techniques and nothing more. Then when I start taking the TKD again 4 months ago, I thought it was a sport. Then more recently, I started to listen to my masters at the school talking to the black belts.. And I realized there is part of TKD that is an art. I usually view martial art as an art, mainly because I had studied number of traditional Japanese MA under Japanese masters. They seems to take the art very seriously. Lot of traditions, lot of spiritual side of the whole thing, lot of emphasis on perfection of the form (Kendo, Iaido, Aikido..). Never really had those things in TKD while I was studying TKD in Korea. We learned how to kick, punch, and block. How to perform forms.. There was no meditations, no philosophical discussion.. Nothing regarding how to make TKD part of your person. But, I'm realizing more and more that TKD is becoming part of my life and it's shaping my life in certain way that I'm very comfortable with (along with lot of emphasis on that from my masters at our school). It has become something more then just a collection of techniques, or a sport, but a important part of my life. I think in that, TKD has become an art for me. Just a random thought.. Peter Kim ------------------------------ From: Brian Myers Date: Wed, 11 Jul 2001 09:45:24 -0500 Subject: the_dojang: Furthering MA... Everyone, This is my first time posting to this group, and I won't bother with trying to respond to any particular person or string. I was most refreshed to read a recent posting by Bruce Sims. In it he asks us all to step back from our mostly petty squabbles about who did what and what title should be used for who. I am a student (for about 5 years) of the ATA (Songahm Taekwondo). I had the great fortune to meet Eternal Grand Master H.U. Lee. (named Eternal Grand Master after his recent death, by decision of many of the GM's of the various forms of TKD practiced today) He was a great human, as were, and are, all those who have added something to Martial Arts Community, no matter what school, or techniques they teach and practice. Recently I have become very interested in the history of TKD. However, during my pursuit of knowledge I began to feel that the MA community has lost hold of some of it's potential. All the individual organizations, kwans, and systems of martial arts have added a great deal, and have accomplished much good in the world at large. But wouldn't we all like to know what would have been, and is still possible in a truely UNIFIED Martial Arts Community? What kind of advances in technique, "good of mankind" accomplishments, and dare I say it - something closer to world peace, could be seen? After all, martial arts - no matter what the school, unites people of all nations, backgrounds, and races in a common goal, betterment of oneself and one's community. Can we, in just this BB, move towards adding our own bit of Martial Arts improvement to the history books, instead of arguing over the history that has already been written? Yours In the Martial Arts Spirit, Brian Myers 1st Dan Songahm TKD Novice (White Belt) Aiki-Jutsu ------------------------------ From: "Prince Loeffler" Date: Wed, 11 Jul 2001 08:13:55 -0700 Subject: the_dojang: San Francisco Dojang Search I have a friend who wants to start training in the martial arts and have asked me if I could refer her to a good Dojang in the San Francisco area. She is one of my attorney who work for our firm.. Since members on this list has been kind enough to share their knowledge of the art of TKD, I would like to start my search here. Thank you all once again for your consideration regarding this matter. Prince Loeffler ------------------------------ From: Chereecharmello@aol.com Date: Wed, 11 Jul 2001 11:26:12 EDT Subject: the_dojang: Re: The_Dojang-Digest V8 #396 Mr. Lasich- Thank you for your concern. Great memory! Apparently, the organization and some of the instructors/students that the Master affiliates himself with have proven to be lacking many of the MA virtues. To name a few, self-control, respect, dignity, etc. In a nutshell, it was explained to me as; "A master who has failed to mastered himself is not truly a master." I was told that my display of damage control towards the situation was unnecessary because he obviously had not mastered himself. After a few more similar incidence, our students must now ask permission to attend any competition. - -Cheree ------------------------------ From: SallyBaughn@aol.com Date: Wed, 11 Jul 2001 11:32:59 EDT Subject: the_dojang: TKD in the Olympic Games Was recently told that TKD will include forms in the Olympics in 2004. Anyone else heard this? Can we at least hope? Sally SallyBaughn@aol.com ------------------------------ From: "Luc T. Nguyen" Date: Wed, 11 Jul 2001 11:36:49 -0400 Subject: the_dojang: Thich Nhat Hanh <> I have also read some of his works. Very much influenced by Lao Zhu. He is Vietnamese and the correct spelling of his name is "Thich Nhat Hanh" Luc Nguyen ------------------------------ From: Ray Terry Date: Wed, 11 Jul 2001 9:24:19 PDT Subject: Re: the_dojang: San Francisco Dojang Search > I have a friend who wants to start training in the martial arts and have > asked me if I could refer her to a good Dojang in the San Francisco area. > She is one of my attorney who work for our firm.. If you can pinpoint the area of SF a bit more perhaps I can help. Ray Terry raymail@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com ------------------------------ From: SunBiNim@aol.com Date: Wed, 11 Jul 2001 12:00:26 EDT Subject: the_dojang: Communication Breakdown In a message dated 7/11/2001 8:41:03 AM Central Daylight Time, Dr. Richard Hackworth writes: << The school that I saw in Korea was called "HanMuDo Hapkido". HanMuDo and HanMooDo are both spelled the same in Hangul (Korean). Uhhh....yes. Sorry if anyone was mislead. << Normally when an organization has the word "World" in their name such as World HanMuDo Association, that they have members in more than one country. >> I'm sorry if the "Uhhh" was taken the wrong way. I tend to write as I think, and that represented pondering. I seem to remember that you mentioned that you had seen the sign in the 80's, at which time there was no World Han Mu Do Association. I was replying, to the best of my knowledge, to the current situation. The "Han Moo Do" spelling is what they use on their web site. I haven't heard of a current "Han Mu Do Hapkido" school, but I'll ask Dojunim when I talk to him next. ------------------------------ From: SunBiNim@aol.com Date: Wed, 11 Jul 2001 12:16:10 EDT Subject: the_dojang: Bruce Sims In a message dated 7/11/2001 8:41:03 AM Central Daylight Time, the_dojang-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com writes: << Ray was kind enough to produce some material regarding some commonly asked questions about Hapkido which included the use of the title "do-ju-nim". Apparently people have more time to discuss who gets this appelation than why it is so grossly inappropriate within the context of Korean culture or any of the rest of the material in that post for that matter. I could go on, but I think you get the idea. >> I would have more time if I didn't have to read such lengthly posts :-) Seriously, I was thinking that Ji, Han-jae was fairly well-versed in Korean culture. My mistake. << Please let me know that we are able to make more of this venue than merely an opportunity for picking each others nits, yes? Ok...you go first. Steve Kincade ------------------------------ From: CCasey8588@aol.com Date: Wed, 11 Jul 2001 12:16:58 EDT Subject: the_dojang: Songahm TKD There has been much discussion about the forms of Songahm TKD being representative of what Taekwondo forms should look like. I agree with one to the earlier writers who stated he believe Songahm was created to improve the teaching methods of the instructors in passing on their knowledge to the students. I looked at the first eight-forms of the ATA and the WTF (Taegeuk) and compared them. Songahm Taegeuk Number of movements: 264 168 Front Kicks 17 31 Side Kicks 12 4 Round Kicks 18 2 Jump Front Kicks 4 4 Jump Sidekicks 2 0 Hook Kicks 4 0 Inner Crescent Kicks 2 2 Outer Crescent Kicks 2 0 Jump Outer Crescent kicks 2 0 Reverse(spin)side kicks 6 0 [Note: I had to reformat the above to make it readable. Hopefully I got it right. Ray] In comparing the black belt forms of each the disparity in the quantity of kicks are the same as the color belt forms. Koryo has a total of 30 movements with six side kicks and four round kicks. The Songahm black belt form Shimjun has 81 movements with 20 different kicks which include stomp, knee, front kicks, jump front, jump hook kicks, side kicks, round kicks, spin hook and jump side kicks. In my humble opinion I believe the class curriculum should be representative of forms required for that particular belt. Shouldn't the form display the advance techniques the student is required to know? ------------------------------ From: Ray Terry Date: Wed, 11 Jul 2001 9:54:57 PDT Subject: the_dojang: . ------------------------------ End of The_Dojang-Digest V8 #397 ******************************** It's a great day for Taekwondo! Support the USTU by joining today. US Taekwondo Union, 1 Olympic Plaza, Ste 104C, Colorado Spgs, CO 80909 719-578-4632 FAX 719-578-4642 ustutkd1@aol.com http://www.ustu.org To unsubscribe from the_dojang-digest send the command: unsubscribe the_dojang-digest -or- unsubscribe the_dojang-digest your.old@address in the BODY (top line, left justified) of a "plain text" e-mail addressed to majordomo@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com. Old digest issues are available via ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com. Copyright 1994-2001: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource Standard disclaimers apply.