From: the_dojang-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com To: the_dojang-digest@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Subject: The_Dojang-Digest V8 #398 Reply-To: the_dojang@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Errors-To: the_dojang-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Precedence: The_Dojang-Digest Wed, 11 July 2001 Vol 08 : Num 398 In this issue: the_dojang: Re: The_Dojang-Digest V8 #381 the_dojang: San Francisco Dojang Seach the_dojang: Re: Kuk Sool Won the_dojang: Re: The_Dojang-Digest V8 #397 the_dojang: Student Age vs. Technique the_dojang: RE: Curious about the Master the_dojang: re: Appropriate Use of Resources Re: the_dojang: San Francisco Dojang Seach the_dojang: Re: The_Dojang-Digest V8 #384 the_dojang: RE: The_Dojang-Digest V8 #396 the_dojang: RE: The_Dojang-Digest V8 #397 the_dojang: DJN/KJN the_dojang: RE: Thanks, Steve the_dojang: RE:It only works for so long... the_dojang: RE: Hyung-up on Forms the_dojang: mooyekwan and combat Hapkido the_dojang: Re: WTF TKD Sport or art the_dojang: yes it is, no it isn't... the_dojang: . ========================================================================= The_Dojang, serving the Internet since June 1994. ~1111 members strong! Copyright 1994-2001: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource The premier internet discussion forum devoted to the Korean Martial Arts. Replying to this message will NOT unsubscribe you. To unsubscribe, send "unsubscribe the_dojang-digest" (no quotes) in the body (top line, left justified) of a "plain text" e-mail addressed to majordomo@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com. To send e-mail to this list use the_dojang@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com See the Korean Martial Arts (KMA) FAQ and the online search engine for back issues of The_Dojang at http://www.MartialArtsResource.com Pil Seung! ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Donnla Nic Gearailt Date: Wed, 11 Jul 2001 17:20:21 +0100 Subject: the_dojang: Re: The_Dojang-Digest V8 #381 >From: Chereecharmello@aol.com >Date: Thu, 5 Jul 2001 11:43:29 EDT >Subject: the_dojang: Re: The_Dojang-Digest V8 #376 > >I once heard of a type of self-defense class geared for teachers that is >(was) aimed at submission of 'aggressive/violent' young, emotionally or >mentally handicapped students. I have been looking endlessly for this >program. I thought it was accredited by some Pennsylvania Teachers' Assoc., >but I can't find it anywhere. Has anyone heard of this? > >I know plenty of joint-locks, self-defense, etc., but not much that could >subdue without harming the child besides a bear hug... > >Willing to travel- >Cheree I would imagine that the kind of self-defense that is taught to health-care workers would be similar. Your local hospital might be a good place to ask about instructors, courses etc. Donnla. - ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Donnla Nic Gearailt Computer Laboratory, New Museums Site, Graduate Student Pembroke St., Cambridge CB2 3QG, U.K. tel: +44-1223-334619 http://www.cl.cam.ac.uk/~dbn20/ "An eyelash! How could you be so careless!" - Jude Law, Gattaca ------------------------------ From: "Prince Loeffler" Date: Wed, 11 Jul 2001 09:47:17 -0700 Subject: the_dojang: San Francisco Dojang Seach If you can pinpoint the area of SF a bit more perhaps I can help.> Thanks Ray !! She is currently located at Filbert Street, San Francisco at Zip code 94109 Thanks for the quick response Prince Loeffler ------------------------------ From: Richard Zaruba Date: Wed, 11 Jul 2001 11:51:35 -0500 Subject: the_dojang: Re: Kuk Sool Won If you would please elaborate on your previous statements it would be most interesting. There are several of us who are quite interested in hearing details about what you stated. The answer to two additional questions would also be most helpful. Who is your Grandmaster in Korea and what contact have you had with the Kuk Sool in the United States that you base your observations on? Sincerely, Richard Zaruba _______________________________________________________________________ Richard Zaruba Department of Anatomy & Cell Biology University of North Dakota School of Medicine 501 North Columbia Road P.O. Box 9037 Grand Forks, ND 58202-9037 zaruba@medicine.nodak.edu 701.777.3952 office 701.777.2576 lab 701.777.2477 fax > From: "teepee" > Date: Thu, 5 Jul 2001 16:09:37 -0600 > Subject: the_dojang: the_dojang re:TSD issues > > "... I am confused..." > > You're not the only one (actually I'm not that confused, but I understand > your position). As a Kuk Sool Won practitioner in Canada, I have read with > amusement In Hyuk Suh's claims of being the originator of the art. Having a > grandmaster in Korea who trained with In Hyuk, we have heard our own version > of events of the beginnings of Kuk Sool; that being that In Hyuk broke away > from the rest of the original Kuk Sool members to form his own assoc. with > the claims that he formed his own art after studying 31(!) arts to the level > of mastery. Comparing our own curriculum and style of > movements/techniques/patterns/stances, it is easy to see how he was able to > expand so easily. His version is a much more watered down form of Kuk Sool. > Anyways, I understand your position. ------------------------------ From: Richard Zaruba Date: Wed, 11 Jul 2001 12:18:18 -0500 Subject: the_dojang: Re: The_Dojang-Digest V8 #397 >> You never know what knowledge resides in the higher levels >> until you get there. > > I've got to say, I really dislike this sort of statement. It implies that > there are > "secrets" you will only discover later on, and that all this training you've > been doing will make sense and be useful. I think that that sort of crud > builds > far too many > cults here in the U.S. If an art is effective, teach it. Build on it over > the years, > and of course the longer you practice, the more you learn. But you should > be able > to tell from the most experienced practitioners and what THEY do if an art > is worthwhile or not. Why do you dislike it? It is not necessarily the "secrets" that you learn but the material you begin to "understand" with extended practice that allows you to learn more advanced material. This is a fact of life, not just the martial arts. A good example is math, I believe that you first learn to count, then add, then subtract,.... I don't know of anyone who went from counting directly to calculus. The same applies to joint locks, you start by practicing large movements that slowly become smaller as you learn to determine the correct points and feeling of the lock. If you start small, most people will never learn to actually apply the lock efficiently. After the lock has become smaller you begin to learn how to apply and control the angle which the lock is applied to make it even more effective. After you have learned the proper angle certain pressure points become available and can be used to further enhance the technique. The original joint lock taught is effective but with extended practice and study it becomes tremendously more effective. Add to this an understanding of the basic principles and biomechanics behind the lock and it becomes quite powerful and versatile. But this takes time and practice to learn and understand, the power of the technique can easily be seen when done but the extensive knowledge and skill to apply it at that level is still only found at the higher levels. Sincerely, Rich _______________________________________________________________________ Richard Zaruba Department of Anatomy & Cell Biology University of North Dakota School of Medicine 501 North Columbia Road P.O. Box 9037 Grand Forks, ND 58202-9037 zaruba@medicine.nodak.edu 701.777.3952 office 701.777.2576 lab 701.777.2477 fax ------------------------------ From: Brian Myers Date: Wed, 11 Jul 2001 12:19:28 -0500 Subject: the_dojang: Student Age vs. Technique Now that I have jumped on my soapbox, let me climb off gracefully. In the last few months a major debate has erupted inside of the ATA. What age is appropriate? By this I mean, how old should a student be before they are allowed to learn weapons, or begin certification as an instructor, or attain the rank of 1st Dan, Etc. Many people believe, as I do, that in most cases these kinds of decisions should be based on the maturity of each individual student. However, a good arguement can be made for setting an "age limit" on things such as weapons training, due to the dangerous nature of the practice. Also, should a young (16 yrs or younger) be entrusted with the responsibilities and rewards of becoming a Instructor or Dan holder? These are questions that I, myself, struggle with as a student and a "volunteer" instructor (No official ceritification, but enough knowledge and experience to aid in the instruction of lower rank students). I am most interested in hearing what "other" TKD organizations do, and what individual school owners and instructors think. Yours in Martial Arts Spirit, Brian ------------------------------ From: "Lasich, Mark D." Date: Wed, 11 Jul 2001 13:58:20 -0400 Subject: the_dojang: RE: Curious about the Master Cheree: Thank you for the update. It sounds like you've come to terms with the situation. It is unfortunate, however, that the individual in question mostly likely retains their rank and title. Once again it doesn't appear that there are any consequences to poor behavior. Question to the list: Are there any examples of an individual, or group of individuals, who lost rank and/or titles due to poor behavior? I am not referring to the quiet postponement of testing, etc., but open and visible consequences for misbehavior? I am especially referring to higher ranks in an organization.......How can we expect our color belts to look up to and strive for specific ranks/titles if those in these positions are not maintaining the very ideals they are encouraging everyone ELSE to live by? Thanks. Mark Mark.Lasich@alcoa.com ------------------------------ From: Arlene Slocum Date: Wed, 11 Jul 2001 13:18:32 -0500 Subject: the_dojang: re: Appropriate Use of Resources Bruce said: >I had an interesting, and a very common experience last night. I was >returning a phone call from an individual who left me a message indicating >that he was curious about my Hapkido classes. >More correctly, he was >interested in talking about what sort of demands that my classes would place >on his resources (time, money, physical exertion, etc.) As I say, its a >pretty common experience for me and probably for a lot of you that want to >make a commecial effort of your martial art endeavors. I mention this >because I wonder at the possible parallels between what that young man >presented to me, and what I am seeing presented for discussion here on DD >with increasing frequency. To be more specific, I am wondering if anyone >else is seeing and hearing a kind of pre-occupation with the trappings of MA >rather than the substance of the arts themselves. I try not to step into any "flames" on this list, but I feel compelled to offer a little insight and perhaps clarify what you are trying to say here. If I am wrong about my interpretation or have offended the poster by my comments, my apologies. I believe you are talking about 2 different situations here. When someone calls and wants to know how training and the commitment it requires will impact their schedule, and about the physical and financial impact as well, are they really avoiding the "substance" of martial arts and wasting your time by talking about the "trappings"? Is this the same as the endless discussions of which grandmaster said or did this or that? To me, the greatest value of martial arts training IS how it impacts the way you manage your time, perform in your work, and manage your physical and mental well being. If someone is asking these questions, they are getting to the heart of what martial arts training is for many people. Maybe you practice pure Hapkido for the sake of its sheer beauty as an art. While this is noble, you have to consider that 99.9% of the world have families, jobs, physical limitations, and 100% of the world population is growing older every second. Martial arts offers great benefits in managing all of these areas, and the investment in money and time and possible physical difficulties involved in training yields a very high return for those who choose to make the commitment. You will never see me on the cover of Black Belt magazine. At my age and ability and rate of promotion, I might make Grandmaster by the time I am 110 years old. I have been practicing martial arts meditation for years, but the closest I might get to any kind of enlightenment is a visit to a Buddhist temple in Asia when I am a retiree. For me, the "trappings" are a lot of the reason I keep practicing. Not that I don't appreciate learning culture and philosophy and the beauty of the art, but the practical stuff is what keeps me training. I believe it is unreasonable to pre-judge someone who wants to fit MA into a busy life as not being the kind of person you would consider a martial artist. As far as the comments on the grandmaster/history trivia thread, while I can't see its relevance to my life right now, it may be valuable to me one day. You never know, I might run into one of those super great grandmasters in an airport and can quickly review the dojang archives to find out which art (or arts) he founded... Arlene Slocum Recommended 2nd Dan Lawrence TaeKwonDo School Lawrence, Kansas ArleneS@geoaccess.com ------------------------------ From: Ray Terry Date: Wed, 11 Jul 2001 12:06:33 PDT Subject: Re: the_dojang: San Francisco Dojang Seach > She is currently located at Filbert Street, San Francisco at Zip code 94109 Have her check out Prof. Bill Dewart at the Academy of TKD, 988 Oak St. (at Scott St). 415-864-4827. She is probably 2 or 3 miles from his dojang. I believe that he teaches the old Kwan forms. He is also an AAU TKD Regional Director. Ray Terry raymail@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com ------------------------------ From: J T Date: Wed, 11 Jul 2001 11:48:03 -0700 (PDT) Subject: the_dojang: Re: The_Dojang-Digest V8 #384 Mst McHenry, "Um, Jeremy... that would be DJN Hwang. Hwang is his sirname, Kee is is first name." You are right. Sorry about that. I think quicker in American that I do in Korean when typing. :) Jeremy __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get personalized email addresses from Yahoo! Mail http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/ ------------------------------ From: "Master Frank Clay" Date: Wed, 11 Jul 2001 15:14:58 -0400 Subject: the_dojang: RE: The_Dojang-Digest V8 #396 I find it interesting that the people here on this digest seem to know more about TKD than the WTF's president and the former president of Korea. Both said that Kukki-Taekwondo was a sport. For those of you without a practical background on the street, and I truly hope that number is small, what works in a TKD competition does not necessarily work on the street. What I learned first as Taekwondo which was an oldt style of Kwan training, was highly effective on the street... yet when pitted against KKW TKD'd rules was absolutely awful. The aims and goals of sport are different... irrespctive of how anyone wants to sugar coat it. Baseball is still a sport, yet I can all ways use the ball or the bat in self defense. My point in this is simple... be honest and tell people hey, we do sport, or hey we do martial art. Its that simple. As far as many of the old time masters, I know of a couple myself... and yes what they teach tends to not be sport, however, that is not always true. The funny thing is some people act like being a sports practitioner is a bad thing.. it is. Just make sure you know and understand what you do, as it may save your life. Frank ------------------------------ From: "Master Frank Clay" Date: Wed, 11 Jul 2001 15:24:34 -0400 Subject: the_dojang: RE: The_Dojang-Digest V8 #397 Jake, I think you need some clarification regarding the KMAIA International Chapter. We have a board of directors, and I am a voting member of the board of directors. We elect our preseident and for the last few years Dr. Richard Hackworth has been our president. Dr. Hackworth has no say in what certifications or affiliations we have. If the KMAIA endorse Kukkiwon, and being a Korean based organization, we do endorse Kukkiwon (lord knows I'm not a KKW supporter) then we have no alternative but to make Kukiwon available to our membership. Its not hypocritical, its a matter of policy. Frank (a multi time poster, and general pain in the neck :)) ------------------------------ From: J T Date: Wed, 11 Jul 2001 12:32:25 -0700 (PDT) Subject: the_dojang: DJN/KJN Perhaps I am misunderstanding the meaning of Dojunim, I thought it was a term given to the inventor of the style. However, in the long run, what is the big deal about if I call someone like GM Hwang, or GM Lee or GM Ji, etc KJN or DJN? Am I not showing respect either way? Jeremy __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get personalized email addresses from Yahoo! Mail http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/ ------------------------------ From: Bruce.Sims@med.va.gov Date: Wed, 11 Jul 2001 14:38:54 -0500 Subject: the_dojang: RE: Thanks, Steve Dear Steve: "...Seriously, I was thinking that Ji, Han-jae was fairly well-versed in Korean culture. My mistake...." Thats OK, Steve, I have come to realize that I have been making some of the same assumptions for a little while now. For years I was sure that people in positions of responsibility in the KMA community acted in the best interests of their art, their students and themselves-- in that order. I also made assumptions like leadership wanting me to know the truth (as opposed to what they represented as the truth). I assumed that most people participated in the MA to find a better part of themselves and to learn how to meet the responsibilities of using that "better part" to make their culture a better place to be. When I found that the truth did not match my expectations, for years I excused it and chalked it up to the immaturity of the arts, the practitioners &/or the culture. Now I am over 50 and the excuses just don't hold water anymore. The result is that when a person says or does something once I can give them the benefit of the doubt and chalk it up to ignorance. Do it again and I figure its probably stupidity. Do it a third time and I suspect malevolence. In the instance that you cited I have no idea why GM Ji would contrive a title for himself, how it was caused to show up on GM Chois' business card, or why/how said title ( Do-ju-nim) could be forced on a population of practitioners for use with a personality such as Dr. Kimm who neither wanted or needs it. But my original point in all of this is that there is simply no precedence in traditional Korean martial culture for all this title/linear succession crap. If someone knows of a pre-1896 (Kabo Reform) provenance for this I will be the first to listen. In the meantime, Steve, the point I am making with this particular post is that if we modern practitioners are ever to get facts and straight answers about who and what we are and where our arts (in my case, Hapkido) are going, I'm not going to hold my breath waiting for clear, concise answers from our "present administration." Best Wishes, Bruce ------------------------------ From: Bruce.Sims@med.va.gov Date: Wed, 11 Jul 2001 15:01:06 -0500 Subject: the_dojang: RE:It only works for so long... Dear Dakin: "...I've got to say, I really dislike this sort of statement. It implies that there are "secrets" you will only discover later on, and that all this training you've been doing will make sense and be useful...." It can't possibly have gone over your head that this is one of the biggest buttons I have for KMA right now. Thanks for throwing this out there for us to think about. I have heard this "i-gotta-secret" routine so many times that I could vomit. The real zinger, though, is the inference that as soon as a student/practitioner is "worthy" they will be made privey to said secret information. Now, I said all of that to say this. I am going to bet this dynamic has a helluva lot more to do with the personality of the secret-holder than anything special they have to say. What makes me say that? A personal experience I have had with my sword teacher, GM Koo. GM has reported to me that tradtionally significant material in Hwa Rang sword was reserved for 4th Dan and above---- for no particularly good reason. BTW: Traditionally it would take about 20 years to make 4th Dan in HwaRang Kumdo. How many folks do you think were hanging around ("for no particularly good reason") waiting until they had their 20 years in to make 4th Dan and collect the pearls dripping from the lips of their teacher? GM Koo has me into 4th Dan material right now and I'm a pretty average 2nd Dan. This year I will be starting live sword training (usually reserved for 5th Dan and above) and believe me I'm no prodigy in any sense of the word. But GM Koo is in his 70-s, I'm sure, and he has made it clear that whatever he does not teach will go the way of the Taek Kyon material that disappeared with the last breathes of the many masters who died during the Japanese occupation. To all the highly touted GM who "have a secret." then, I would remind you that the bait only draws its strength from the individual's desire for it. Don't press your luck--- life is short. Best Wishes, Bruce ------------------------------ From: Bruce.Sims@med.va.gov Date: Wed, 11 Jul 2001 15:15:59 -0500 Subject: the_dojang: RE: Hyung-up on Forms :..In my humble opinion I believe the class curriculum should be representative of forms required for that particular belt. Shouldn't the form display the advance techniques the student is required to know?..." In answer to your question I would generally say "yes", with the exception of those cases where the level of proficiency rather than solely the technique is raised. By this I mean that a higher level of a hyung may ask a practitioner to execute a technique already presented in an earlier hyung but perhaps under significantly more challenging circumstances (limited foundation, following a turn, sandwiched betwen alternate techniques such as blocks or evasions, etc.). I have repeatedly heard self-styled "masters" report modifying Forms, Hyung, or Kata to make them easier to learn or because "no one would ever execute said technique under those conditions". Near as I can tell thats the whole point. Sometimes Forms training is a way of giving the practitioners a chance to train the body in different ways. I think that whole combat application thing gets just a little too much emphasis sometimes. Hyung are a lot things. BTW: Is there a way to know the grappling/locking/throwing applications of the hyung you compared to accomplish the same kind of numbers but for those categories? Just thought it would be interesting if it was possible. Best Wishes, Bruce ------------------------------ From: Harold Whalen Date: Wed, 11 Jul 2001 16:15:54 -0400 Subject: the_dojang: mooyekwan and combat Hapkido Please do not use these two names in the same sentence Combat Hapkido was made up by john p, MooyeKwan was not made up it was the name of my Dojang and if you check john p and myself are not on the same page. My rank did not come in or from a few seminars and I can look in the mirror with no remorse. Hal ------------------------------ From: JSaportajr@aol.com Date: Wed, 11 Jul 2001 16:32:31 EDT Subject: the_dojang: Re: WTF TKD Sport or art In a message dated 7/11/2001 12:27:49 PM Eastern Daylight Time, the_dojang-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com writes: << May I ask why you gave up ITF TKD? I believe that ITF TKD is more of an art than WTF TKD. Or am I just biased? >> Just they way things turned out, not a conscious choice. I moved to an area where the most convenient dojang was WTF, though the Master there was also ITF at one time. At the time I started the WTF school I wasnt even so aware and didn't care so much about the difference. I suspect that many American Masters who are in their late 40's and who are in the WTF were originally ITF. Both styles have their relative strengths and weaknesses. I think that the opportunity to compete full contact may be an advantage. ITF has other advantages, including their more complex forms and their beautiful and powerful lead leg kicks. Jose' ------------------------------ From: Ray Terry Date: Wed, 11 Jul 2001 15:44:32 PDT Subject: the_dojang: yes it is, no it isn't... > I find it interesting that the people here on this digest seem to know more > about TKD than the WTF's president and the former president of Korea. Both > said that Kukki-Taekwondo was a sport. Perhaps. Don't know about which former president of Korea (one of those currently in jail? :), but Un-yong Kim has also said there is plenty of room in Korean TKD for both art and sport. Is it a sport in Korea? Sure. Is it often taught as an art? Obviously. Can we move on? Ray Terry raymail@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com ------------------------------ From: Ray Terry Date: Wed, 11 Jul 2001 15:45:01 PDT Subject: the_dojang: . ------------------------------ End of The_Dojang-Digest V8 #398 ******************************** It's a great day for Taekwondo! Support the USTU by joining today. US Taekwondo Union, 1 Olympic Plaza, Ste 104C, Colorado Spgs, CO 80909 719-578-4632 FAX 719-578-4642 ustutkd1@aol.com http://www.ustu.org To unsubscribe from the_dojang-digest send the command: unsubscribe the_dojang-digest -or- unsubscribe the_dojang-digest your.old@address in the BODY (top line, left justified) of a "plain text" e-mail addressed to majordomo@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com. Old digest issues are available via ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com. Copyright 1994-2001: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource Standard disclaimers apply.