From: the_dojang-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com To: the_dojang-digest@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Subject: The_Dojang-Digest V8 #399 Reply-To: the_dojang@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Errors-To: the_dojang-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Precedence: The_Dojang-Digest Thur, 12 July 2001 Vol 08 : Num 399 In this issue: the_dojang: Re: The_Dojang-Digest V8 #396 the_dojang: Re: t'aekkyeon & Kuksul the_dojang: Sport or Art the_dojang: Hapkido techniques the_dojang: Doju Nim Ji the_dojang: yes it is, not it isn't the_dojang: Moo Ye Kwan the_dojang: Kuk Sool the_dojang: SF school the_dojang: Titles stuff the_dojang: WTF TKD - Is a practical means of self defence the_dojang: . ========================================================================= The_Dojang, serving the Internet since June 1994. ~1111 members strong! Copyright 1994-2001: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource The premier internet discussion forum devoted to the Korean Martial Arts. Replying to this message will NOT unsubscribe you. To unsubscribe, send "unsubscribe the_dojang-digest" (no quotes) in the body (top line, left justified) of a "plain text" e-mail addressed to majordomo@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com. To send e-mail to this list use the_dojang@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com See the Korean Martial Arts (KMA) FAQ and the online search engine for back issues of The_Dojang at http://www.MartialArtsResource.com Pil Seung! ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: ConcordTKD@aol.com Date: Wed, 11 Jul 2001 18:18:52 EDT Subject: the_dojang: Re: The_Dojang-Digest V8 #396 ""In 1968, General Choi had a meeting with then Master H. U. Lee. Master Lee was, at the time, teaching the PyeongAhn forms (pre-Taekwondo, Japanese based forms) to his organization of followers. Master Lee did a tremendous amount of research into the old, traditional styles of Korea, most notably Taekyon and Soobak. His desire was to have a truly Korean martial art, not influenced by other martial arts styles, and with that goal in mind, he developed the Songahm style, which bears no resemblence to any other martial art style."" Interesting , he could have just read the Generals book about Taekwon-Do. Seams the history of MAster Le is very reminisent of General Choi's life in the development of Taekwon-Do. I would like to hear more. John Murphy A-3-756 ITF/USTF ------------------------------ From: Lorne Keatley Date: Wed, 11 Jul 2001 19:21:35 -0400 Subject: the_dojang: Re: t'aekkyeon & Kuksul Dakin, I would have to disagree with the person to contact regarding Dahn Moo Do as Master Bergeron. He indeed trained with Grandmaster Pak, and as well as Grandmaster Suh, before joining the Dahn Moo Do. Indeed Master Bergeron could tell me of curriculum difference. However since I am interested in a true look at Dahn Moo Do, I imagine the best one to ask would be Master Lee who is out the Barrie area. As to talking to Master Timmerman, I hav a pretty good idea of what he would say being a student of the man for fifteen years. However, the hapkido-hwarangdo-kuksoolwon mess cannot be fixed in Canada. Only the men who trained together in GM Choi's yawara dojang can solve that. On to other things, I know there are no secrets but as you said as you train you gain knowledge. As I am learning the next phase of my curriculum, there are concepts and intricatcies that I would not have understood if I learned them earlier. That is a problem I have with the Dahn Moo Do curriculum as they teach such techniques as palm strikes and fan techniques without the proper development of Ki power needed for effective techniques. Perhaps that is the poster's claim that KSW does not have material, as it not seen as early as in Dahn Moo Do. As to cults, this reminds me of religious zeal that lower ranks and the 'instant' masters have supporting their association's claim and attacking the infidel associations. I just remarked on the similarity to purring as to the lowline kicks to the opponent. I did not think the clothes on wore were a basis on the uniqueness of a an art's techniques. I must confess I partially included the purring reference to see how deep the knowledge of the list member's runs. I am pleasently surprised again. Am I mistaken that taekkyon uses strikes to the knees, shins and ankles in order to unbalance the opponent for a subsequent sweep? I believe it is Song Duk-ki's manual as he is throughout the book. Lorne ------------------------------ From: "hackworth" Date: Wed, 11 Jul 2001 19:32:59 -0400 Subject: the_dojang: Sport or Art Jake, thanks for the Korean lesson. I am only trying to establish that there is a specific Korean name for the Sport of TKD. Maybe you in all your glory can tell me the correct Korean words for the Sport of TKD since nobody in Korea seems to know. Maybe you can tell us. I have never had an ad in Taekwondo Times Magazine. Those ads were for the Korean Martial Arts Instructors Association. I am only President of the US Chapter. The elections are held every two years in October. Maybe someone should nominate you since you know so much more than the people who work at KukKiWon. They all think that KukKi Taekwondo identifies the National Sport of Taekwondo. Richard Hackworth http://ma_success.tripod.com ------------------------------ From: "Patrick L" Date: Wed, 11 Jul 2001 17:27:18 -0700 Subject: the_dojang: Hapkido techniques Dear Mr. Sims, >I asked about having someone catelogue the over-3,000 techniques of >Hapkido-- a pretty common bit of oral tradition as these things go and got >nothing. < IMHO as to the total number of technique in Hapkido, I think you are trying to hit a moving target. The number attributed to GM Choi (3808?)was for HIS Hapkido, it included Japanese sword, and did not include other technique commonly used today in Hapkido. It is mind numbing to even guesstimate! Do you include stone, knife, and plate throwing? How about Tae Kyon? I have never totaled up the number of technique I have, have you?. >Please let me know that we are able to make more of this venue than merely >an opportunity for picking each others nits, yes?< One man's nits, are another primate's source of protein. :) Getting in the WAY, Patrick _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com ------------------------------ From: mtomlins@mail.volusia.k12.fl.us Date: Wed, 11 Jul 2001 21:51:26 -0400 Subject: the_dojang: Doju Nim Ji Ji Han Jae created Sin Moo Hapkido AFTER being the head of basically every old time Hapkido Organization on the planet,, I don't think this can or will be disputed. The reason I call him Doju Nim is because he told me to call him that face to face at Master Nabors home. If you ever get a chance to understand the basic mechanics of Sin Moo Hapkido then you will know WHY Doju Nim Ji is a true founder of so many Hapkido organizations,, he don't just talk the talk, but you better believe he can walk the walk. His understanding of the basics of what makes Hapkido work on people that are not "cooperating" with you is incredible. This knowledge didn't come from the computer keyboard but from Decades upon decades of LIVING Hapkido. Michael Tomlinson ******************************************************************************* This email and any files transmitted with it are confidential and intended solely for the use of the individual or entity to whom they are addressed. If you have received this email in error please notify the system manager at administrator@volusia.k12.fl.us. ******************************************************************************* ------------------------------ From: Ray Terry Date: Wed, 11 Jul 2001 19:08:33 PDT Subject: the_dojang: yes it is, not it isn't > ... Those ads were for the > Korean Martial Arts Instructors Association. I am only President of the US > Chapter. KMAIA membership certs state that Richard Hackworth is the "International President". Or did I just get an old one? :) Can't we pick on the Haidong Gumdo guyz for awhile? Can't you guyz romanize any better than that?!? :) Ray Terry raymail@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com ------------------------------ From: mtomlins@mail.volusia.k12.fl.us Date: Wed, 11 Jul 2001 22:14:04 -0400 Subject: the_dojang: Moo Ye Kwan I witnessed Pelligrini "recieve" his very firstHapkido Black Belt in Orange City Florida not to many years ago from Mike Wollmershauser, this was before he created Combat Hapkido,at that time he was a TKD guy, not a Hapkido guy, he recieved this certification during a seminar, approx. 6 years later I attended a Combat Hapkido Seminar that GRANDMASTER Pelligrini was giving in Clermont Florida to see what I could pick up,, know one took any falls the whole day, know one even attempted to try to take someone to the ground. I tested for my 3rd Dan in Hapkido at Master Whalen's Dojang in Boston a few years back. This is with the Moo Ye Kwan Organization run by Master Whalen. My test lasted approx. 3 hours, in which time I had to fight blindfolded, against multiple attackers, against a knife, etc., all the time this was going on I was taking 3 hours worth of falls and techniques being done on me by Master Mike McCarty who was testing for his 5th Dan. In the beginning of the test I tore a tendon in my foot while I pivoted on the big red monster,,did the test stop? No the test didn't stop,, did Master Whalen feel sorry for me? No he didn't, we just kept going. Am I some special Hapkido guy? No I am nothing out of the ordinary,, just your average Hapkido idiot. I have seen a lot of fights in my life,, I guess you could call it Combat, some things I noticed was that people get hurt and they don't stop fighting, people fall and keep fighting. Remember that Moo Ye Kwan is nothing special,it is not specified as "Combat", it is just real Hapkido without all the hooplah,, if you want REAL Combat you probably need to buy a video or something. Micael Tomlinson ******************************************************************************* This email and any files transmitted with it are confidential and intended solely for the use of the individual or entity to whom they are addressed. If you have received this email in error please notify the system manager at administrator@volusia.k12.fl.us. ******************************************************************************* ------------------------------ From: "Rudy Timmerman" Date: Wed, 11 Jul 2001 11:37:06 -0400 Subject: the_dojang: Kuk Sool Dakin writes in repsonse to Lorne: > the best > person to get in touch with is Ivan Bergeron. He trained under GM In-Seok > Pak, who was heavily involved with early Kuksulweon history and always claimed > that he and another hapkido instructor had formed Kuksulweon and then brought > in GM Suh to incorporate the forms and hand movements of Praying Mantis > kung-fu. Of course, Rudy Timmerman here on the Digest was also a longtime > student of GM Pak, so you could also ask him. If anyone could clear up that > whole hapkido-hwarangdo-kuksulweon mess, I'd love to hear about it, but it may > be beyond our powers here in the States. Hello Dakin. Sorry, but the original poster on that thread was not from my school, and Lorne know the Suh side of this issue. My guess is that Lorne is asking for more info from whomever made the statement a few issues ago. My guess is also that we are not likely to get more real info from that source. However, I may add this for your info: There have been a number of GMs who made claims on Kuk Sool. Remember GM Moon in the US? There was also a gentleman in the UK with similar claims (who later signed over his rights to the UK Kuk Sool trademark to GM Suh). In Canada, long after GM Pak had split from GM Suh, there was a Kuk Sool school I visited in TO. A slight man in his forties???? with long hair (I can't recall his name offhand) who also claimed to be the founder of Kuk Sool was in charge of the school -- spoke no English at all. I do believe this man was the root of the Canadian Kuk Sool group now called Dahn Mu Do (presently under GM Lee). Today, there is an ongoing Trademark battle about Kuk Sool in Canada between GM Suh and various other claimants (not inlcuding me). Ofcourse, we both know of GM Pak's view on the issue. I guess what I am trying to say is that the Kuk Sool situation is one that calls for "will the real GM of Kuk Sool please stand up". In conclusion: IMHO, there is NO ONE who has done more for Kuk Sool than GM Suh In Hyuk. Despite my personal misgivings about him and the WKSA, I must give credit where credit is due. There really is no one else who can claim to have made Kuk Sool what it is today. I know, I personally put Kuk Sool on the map for him in Michigan and Canada by establishing no less than 16 schools. I also have the records to prove that, until I left WKSA in 1998, virtually every Kuk Sool black belt in these areas received training from and was recommended for black belt by me. Many deny this today, and I could care less, the proof is in the documents and pictures I would be glad to share to support my statements. Rudy Former Branch Director of Kuk Sool for all of Canada and the state of Michigan. ------------------------------ From: "Rudy Timmerman" Date: Wed, 11 Jul 2001 11:48:56 -0400 Subject: the_dojang: SF school Mr. Loeffler writes: > Thanks Ray !! > > She is currently located at Filbert Street, San Francisco at Zip code 94109 Hello Mr. Loeffler: There is a Kuk Sool school (run by Master Suh Sung Jin) on that street. While I do not care for WKSA, you are hard pressed to go wrong with that Master. I highly recommend him as a good Instructor. Sincerely, Rudy ------------------------------ From: "Bruce Sims" Date: Wed, 11 Jul 2001 22:30:46 -0500 Subject: the_dojang: Titles stuff Dear Jeremy: "...Perhaps I am misunderstanding the meaning of Dojunim, I thought it was a term given to the inventor of the style. However, in the long run, what is the big deal about if I call someone like GM Hwang, or GM Lee or GM Ji, etc KJN or DJN? Am I not showing respect either way? ..." I'm beginning to think you and I are a clear minority in this matter. I am guessing that you and I can point out the shallow nature of such contrived titles as "dojunim", "grandmaster" and even "master" until our lips are blue and its not going to make any difference to folks who just plain like the trappings that go with martial theatre. I have been in the company of individuals who have requested to be addressed by some title and most often the request and the title are completely inappropriate. ("soke", "shihan," "Dr" and "GM" are probably the biggest offenses.) So, lets have some fun. The Independence Movement during the Japanese Occupation included participation by a number of "kwans." Could some of our more scholarly types please identify the titles of the individuals who were instrumental in leading the Independence Movements (1910 to 1930). If thats too tough, perhaps I can suggest an easier one. The Yi dynasty lasted from 1390 to 1910. Since the originator of a martial art would most probably be a personality of considerable import ( of the nature of what the Chen family patriarch would be to TAI CHI CHAUN, Kano to Judo, etc.) perhaps someone can cite at least one occasion during the Yi dynasty identifying an originator of an art and the title by which he is identified in the literature. Thats over 500 years of census, natality, morbidity, and tax materials not to mention temple records and general literature. If it seems as though I am being just a touch mean-spirited about this I ask you to consider the following. We have just had quite a few exchanges about the relationship between Japanese and Korean art regarding TKD/TSD/Shotokan. Before that we had quite a few exchanges about the authenticity and heritage of Hapkido arts. I am left to wonder why it is that the same folks who strive so hard to identify distinctions between Korean and Japanese martial heritage are so enamoured with the concepts of title and authority and succession which are not in Korean martial tradition and only ape the traditions of the Japanese culture. Is it because we enjoy holding the moral high ground over the Japanese for WW2 but can't seem to surrender the romantic view of military order-of-battle as we identify it in our arts? To tell you the truth, Jeremy, I don't think this title stuff has anything to do with respect or ettiquette. I get the feeling its stone-self-serving and the people pushing it know that all the way down inside. Best Wishes, Bruce Jeremy ------------------------------ From: "Graham, Kelly" Date: Wed, 11 Jul 2001 23:34:19 -0500 Subject: the_dojang: WTF TKD - Is a practical means of self defence This is my first post to this list, although I have been following it with some interest for a couple of months. Please take my comments with a grain of salt as I currently hold a green belt in WTF TKD. My Instructor was once a member of the ITF though. "For those of you without a practical background on the street, and I truly hope that number is small, what works in a TKD competition does not necessarily work on the street." This is very true, however we are taught many things that are not for use in a competition. We are told not to use some of the techniques in competition simply because they are too dangerous to allow people to try during a match. Their are times when my instructor brings chairs and tables into the class, so that we can learn what it is like to try and use kicks in crowded spaces. We also have classes where we train spar in our street clothes to see how little movement they really offer. Moreover, we train very hard to maintain our conditioning, this includes weekly runs that are not part of our training time. And we are very focused on our "forms" or patterns. Sparing practice for tournaments is general conducted during special classes, so that those who are not interested in going to tournaments don't have to waste their time preparing for them. However, everyone is required to do some full-contact sparing in classes some of the time so that they learn what being in a "fight" is like. You might be surprised at how many people have never taken a hit before they join our class. " What I learned first as Taekwondo which was an oldt style of Kwan training, was highly effective on the street... yet when pitted against KKW TKD'd rules was absolutely awful. The aims and goals of sport are different... irrespctive of how anyone wants to sugar coat it. Baseball is still a sport, yet I can all ways use the ball or the bat in self defense. " Boxing is also a sport. Many of my friends have trained in this sport (kick, traditional) for a period, some longer than others. I have seen one of them deal with a brown belt in Karate-Do who felt that he didn't know to truly fight. The brown belt felt that he would educate my friend in what fighting was. Lets just say that it was very quick, and hopefully the brown belt learned something that day. "My point in this is simple... be honest and tell people hey, we do sport, or hey we do martial art. Its that simple. As far as many of the old time masters, I know of a couple myself... and yes what they teach tends to not be sport, however, that is not always true. The funny thing is some people act like being a sports practitioner is a bad thing.. it is." it is? so you are saying that being a sports practitioner is a bad thing? I'm sorry that you feel that way. I try to appreciate all athletes. I enjoy watching any athlete that excels at any "sport". I feel the same way when I watch my instructor perform a form as I do watching a world class gymnast on TV. I'm not claiming that my instructor is a world class athlete. Nor do I look down on those who have chosen to pursue traditional western sports. The dedicate as much and in many cases more to their "lifestyle" than many martial artists that I have meet. I don't know of many 17 year olds who move away from home to study martial arts, yet I know more than a few who have moved away to learn how to play better hockey (yes I live in Canada). Anyway I hope I didn't sound to negative. I just felt that I had offer a viewpoint from some one who is involved in this mere "sport". Frank ------------------------------ From: Ray Terry Date: Wed, 11 Jul 2001 22:16:03 PDT Subject: the_dojang: . ------------------------------ End of The_Dojang-Digest V8 #399 ******************************** It's a great day for Taekwondo! Support the USTU by joining today. US Taekwondo Union, 1 Olympic Plaza, Ste 104C, Colorado Spgs, CO 80909 719-578-4632 FAX 719-578-4642 ustutkd1@aol.com http://www.ustu.org To unsubscribe from the_dojang-digest send the command: unsubscribe the_dojang-digest -or- unsubscribe the_dojang-digest your.old@address in the BODY (top line, left justified) of a "plain text" e-mail addressed to majordomo@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com. Old digest issues are available via ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com. Copyright 1994-2001: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource Standard disclaimers apply.