From: the_dojang-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com To: the_dojang-digest@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Subject: The_Dojang-Digest V8 #400 Reply-To: the_dojang@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Errors-To: the_dojang-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Precedence: The_Dojang-Digest Thur, 12 July 2001 Vol 08 : Num 400 In this issue: the_dojang: Re: Yawara the_dojang: Re: Songahm/ATA/GM Lee. with TKD & HRD to boot the_dojang: Re: Hapkido Questions the_dojang: Re: Do ju nim the_dojang: Hwarang Do seminar the_dojang: Re: Titles stuff the_dojang: Hey! Why not pick on the Tuk Kung Moo Sul guys instead?! the_dojang: Re: WTF TKD - Is a practical means of self defence the_dojang: Martial Arts as Self Defense the_dojang: RE : Loss of Rank Question... the_dojang: Re: The_Dojang-Digest V8 #399 the_dojang: Student Age vs. Technique the_dojang: Re: Dan, Instructors, Weapons the_dojang: RE:Research? the_dojang: Hapkido the_dojang: RE: Teaching Stuff the_dojang: A player must play the_dojang: Hidden Knowledge vs. Discovered Knowledge the_dojang: RE:3000 techniques the_dojang: RE: Title Stuff the_dojang: RE: mooyekwan and combat hapkido the_dojang: . ========================================================================= The_Dojang, serving the Internet since June 1994. ~1111 members strong! Copyright 1994-2001: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource The premier internet discussion forum devoted to the Korean Martial Arts. Replying to this message will NOT unsubscribe you. To unsubscribe, send "unsubscribe the_dojang-digest" (no quotes) in the body (top line, left justified) of a "plain text" e-mail addressed to majordomo@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com. To send e-mail to this list use the_dojang@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com See the Korean Martial Arts (KMA) FAQ and the online search engine for back issues of The_Dojang at http://www.MartialArtsResource.com Pil Seung! ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Carsten Jorgensen" Date: Thu, 12 Jul 2001 17:13:02 +0800 Subject: the_dojang: Re: Yawara Ray wrote: >> GM JB Lee has someone other than GM Choi -or- GM Ji using the name Hapkido first. << Yes, Morihei Ueshiba. followed by GM Kang Moon Jin. >> GM Ji lays solid claim to the name Hapkido. GM Choi was apparently given that name to use by GM Ji, << I have never taken this literally, I read this as GM Ji gave his teacher GM Choi 'face' by saying that GM Choi founded Hapkido. History recap: GM Choi did not found any style called Hapkido, but taught Yawara to GM Ji and the others. GM Choi did not teach Hapkido (until very late) and of course it is because of GM Ji and his students that the Hapkido name is so famous now. GM Ji 'gave him' the name Hapkido since nobody used to know what Yawara was... makes sense? >>yet in 1968 GM Choi promoted both GM Ji and GM Lee to 8th Dan. I've always been curious, but not very, as to in what art they were promoted to 8th Dan. In GM Choi's Yawara? In GM Ji's Hapkido? In GM Lee's HwaRang Do? In GM Ji's Hapkido that GM Choi later called his art instead of Yawara? It would be somewhat interesting to know, perhaps. << It was not that GM Lee and GM Ji had learned new techniques from GM Choi and then tested for their 8th dan in 1968. The ranks simply meant that they were to lead the new organization. Again, and this is the most important thing to remember, there never was 'A' style called Hapkido. Both GM Lee and GM Ji had different backgrounds and the whole purpose of the organization was to unify all the different little styles, just as had happened with "Taekwondo" a few years earlier. Of course, the organization fell apart a short time after, GM Lee dropped all rank and has NEVER been involved with 'Hapkido' since. Carsten Jorgensen Copenhagen, Denmark hwarangdo@email.com - -- _______________________________________________ Make PC-to-Phone calls with Net2Phone. Sign-up today at: http://www.net2phone.com/cgi-bin/link.cgi?121 ------------------------------ From: "Carsten Jorgensen" Date: Thu, 12 Jul 2001 17:14:49 +0800 Subject: the_dojang: Re: Songahm/ATA/GM Lee. with TKD & HRD to boot JSaportajr wrote: >> How could Lee have erased his previous knowledge of Taekwondo, including its Japanese roots and influences and create, denovo a style free of Japanese roots and influence? That's about as believable as Joo Bang Lee wiping out his Hapkido memory and teaching a style that looks just like Hapkido but then claiming in a recent interview that Hwarangdo contains No Hapkido. << What is Hapkido? Could you post the quote you're talking about? I don't think I have ever seen it. >> Incidentally, I am friends with a Korean grand master, 8th dan in taekwondo and 8th dan in hapkido who's first Hapkido instructors in Korea in the early 60s were Joo Bang Lee and his brother, Choo song Lee (not sure of the spelling, that is what it sounded like). << It's normally spelled Joo Sang Lee. >> He told me that Hwarangdo is basically Hapkido. (He also told me about how at the time there was no spinning heel kick in Taekwondo but he, and many other practitioners took the spinning heel kick from Hapkido and started using it in their Taekwondo sparring). << Yes, the spinning heel kick comes from Hwarang Do. Actually, it would be interesting to hear his definition of Hapkido, I doubt if it is as you think. Carsten Jorgensen Copenhagen, Denmark hwarangdo@email.com - -- _______________________________________________ Make PC-to-Phone calls with Net2Phone. Sign-up today at: http://www.net2phone.com/cgi-bin/link.cgi?121 ------------------------------ From: "Carsten Jorgensen" Date: Thu, 12 Jul 2001 17:16:09 +0800 Subject: the_dojang: Re: Hapkido Questions >> 4) Is there fighting in Hapkido ? Prior to the 70's (IMHO when tournament fighting reached its Zenith in the U.S.) Hapkidoists would say the sparring was too dangerous. Now many Hapkido schools have sparring classes. << Hwarang Do have had fighting since the first public school opened in 1960. Rules goes from non-contact through semi- to full-contact and ground fighting. The first many years were without protection but in the late 60s - early 70s there was too many lost teeth and broken noses so open gloves and fencing masks were used as the only protection: http://www.hwarangdo.com/Magazines/5th-exhibition.html Carsten Jorgensen Copenhagen, Denmark hwarangdo@email.com - -- _______________________________________________ Make PC-to-Phone calls with Net2Phone. Sign-up today at: http://www.net2phone.com/cgi-bin/link.cgi?121 ------------------------------ From: "Carsten Jorgensen" Date: Thu, 12 Jul 2001 17:17:09 +0800 Subject: the_dojang: Re: Do ju nim Bruce: >> So far the only other folks that use this title are supporters of Ji, Han Jae (Hapkido). Your usage was the first that I had seen other than this. << Ray: >> I know that Ji, Han Jae and Dr. Kimm use the title "Do Ju", but I don't really remember seeing it commonly used until a fairly recently. Can you tell me how long you have seen it used?" Ray: Guessing here... ~3 years. << We have been using the title in Hwarang Do since the 60s, 30+ years Carsten Jorgensen Copenhagen, Denmark hwarangdo@email.com - -- _______________________________________________ Make PC-to-Phone calls with Net2Phone. Sign-up today at: http://www.net2phone.com/cgi-bin/link.cgi?121 ------------------------------ From: "Carsten Jorgensen" Date: Thu, 12 Jul 2001 17:18:13 +0800 Subject: the_dojang: Hwarang Do seminar Open seminar in LA with GM Joo Bang Lee July 20-21 This is a rare opportunity to learn from one of the most senior Korean masters. whrda@hwarangdo.com or phone at (562) 861-0111 More info: http://www.hwarangdo.com/2001open.htm Carsten Jorgensen Copenhagen, Denmark hwarangdo@email.com - -- _______________________________________________ Make PC-to-Phone calls with Net2Phone. Sign-up today at: http://www.net2phone.com/cgi-bin/link.cgi?121 ------------------------------ From: "Carsten Jorgensen" Date: Thu, 12 Jul 2001 17:51:34 +0800 Subject: the_dojang: Re: Titles stuff Jeremy: >>"...Perhaps I am misunderstanding the meaning of Dojunim, I thought it was a term given to the inventor of the style. << It's not necessarily the person who invented the style. Do = Way and Ju = Owner so 'Doju' is the person who 'owns' the style - the leader. >> However, in the long run, what is the big deal about if I call someone like GM Hwang, or GM Lee or GM Ji, etc KJN or DJN? Am I not showing respect either way? ..." << What's the difference between saying Dr. Smith or Mr. Smith? Both are polite and one uses the title. When I talk with and about GM Joo Bang Lee I sometimes say 'GM' and sometimes 'Dojoo-Nim', when I post on the internet I also sometimes say Dr. Lee (Ph.D in Acupuncture and Oriental Medicine) to make it easier to separate him from all the other Lee's. I think all of them shows respect :-) Bruce: >> I'm beginning to think you and I are a clear minority in this matter. I am guessing that you and I can point out the shallow nature of such contrived titles as "dojunim", "grandmaster" and even "master" until our lips are blue and its not going to make any difference to folks who just plain like the trappings that go with martial theatre. I have been in the company of individuals who have requested to be addressed by some title and most often the request and the title are completely inappropriate. ("soke", "shihan," "Dr" and "GM" are probably the biggest offenses.) << You know you're talking as an American/westerner right? Titles are an essential part of most Asian cultures - or are we talking Korean/Japanese >< Western masters? >> So, lets have some fun. The Independence Movement during the Japanese Occupation included participation by a number of "kwans." Could some of our more scholarly types please identify the titles of the individuals who were instrumental in leading the Independence Movements (1910 to 1930). << Sorry, I really don't have time to look it up, but you can be sure they had titles. (It wouldn't be martial arts titles though). Carsten Jorgensen Copenhagen, Denmark hwarangdo@email.com - -- _______________________________________________ Make PC-to-Phone calls with Net2Phone. Sign-up today at: http://www.net2phone.com/cgi-bin/link.cgi?121 ------------------------------ From: "Anthony or Clare Boyd" Date: Thu, 12 Jul 2001 19:48:08 +0900 Subject: the_dojang: Hey! Why not pick on the Tuk Kung Moo Sul guys instead?! Hey! Why not pick on the Tuk Kung Moo Sul guys instead?! They romanize even worse than we do....... don't they? Ray wrote: [Can't we pick on the Haidong Gumdo guyz for awhile? Can't you guyz romanize any better than that?!? :) ] I reply: Well... if you really want to pick on folks who wander about with swords... ;) Seriously, I have no idea why the biggest group of Haidong Gumdo practitioners chose the worst possible transliteration of the name. There is a lot of talk about law suits, trademarks etc but it turns out to be bogus. Apparently the term 'Hai Dong', (meaning East Sea) cannot be trademarked and neither can the term Gumdo - for obvious reasons as they are both general words. The english spellings cannot be trademarked. Even the combination of the terms cannot be reserved for special use. Only the individual logos can be trademarked. That said, it's still true that the splinter groups all have better spellings than we do. The President of the World Federation asked me about the spelling once and I gave him my suggestion for a better spelling. His reply was, "It's too late now." I found that hilarious having lived in Korea long enough by then to understand the humour in his words. Personally, I was glad the Federation didn't rush out and embrace the Government's newest romanization system as that would have me using something like this spelling: Hae Doeng Geom Do. Ewww. The Daehan Haidong Gumdo Federation used a stylized GD and sword logo where the D is much smaller than the G and looks like a fist holding a sword straight up. The Hanguk Haedong Kumdo Federation uses a circle divided into three colored wedges with two wildly curved swords crossing underneath it. Anthony Boyd, suffering the slings and arrows of outrageous spellings... Got Sword? http://welcome.to/haidonggumdo ------------------------------ From: SallyBaughn@aol.com Date: Thu, 12 Jul 2001 07:31:46 EDT Subject: the_dojang: Re: WTF TKD - Is a practical means of self defence Frank wrote: << We are told not to use some of the techniques in competition simply because they are too dangerous to allow people to try during a match. >> Perhaps a grain of salt is appropriate with this statement. There are many very dangerous techniques used in any competition (particularly Olympic-style), and what makes the use of them appropriate to the sport is that there are also rules and referees to enforce the rules. There are also many techniques and types of behavior that are disallowed in some competitions but not in others; i.e., junior color belts are rarely allowed to kick to the face while adult black belts may do so. Point sparring may allow light fist contact to the face, Olympic-style allows no hand contact to the face, etc. [With a grin she says] I know of no competition that will allow you to rip out someone's collarbone and hand it to them -- a technique a few of the "old-timers" in Ohio still talk about. Sally ------------------------------ From: "Meghan Gardner" Date: Thu, 12 Jul 2001 07:57:02 -0400 Subject: the_dojang: Martial Arts as Self Defense I might be opening a bag o' flame here, but what the heck. If your "art", "sport" or whatever you call you style/school/system you partake in does not cover the following as part of your martial education, I would reconsider labeling it self defense: 1) How to identify the "Interview Process". Does your instructor teach you how to recognize the verbal/positioning tactics commonly used to set up potential victims? (for more info on this, read Gavin deBecker's Gift of Fear) 2) Does your school provide training in Adrenaline Stress Conditioning? All of your training could mean squat if you do not know how to overcome the physiological and psychological impact of Epinephrine on your body. For more info, check out "Real Fighting" by Peyton Quinn or take one of his courses at RMCAT. 3) Have you studied the art of Running Away? Marc MacYoung's "Street E&E" is a good place to start. 4) Do you understand the importance of minimizing Time Frames, Cracking, Screening and Redirecting when faced with multiple assailants? To further your education here, try a Modern Warrior course in NYC. 5) Does your class discuss the workings of the criminal mind? Try "Inside the Criminal Mind" by Stanton Samenow. 6) Have you ever fought FULL CONTACT against a Padded Attacker? I mean someone so protected that you are not having to pull *any* techniques. There are lots of quality programs out there that offer training in this. 7) If you practice Gun Disarms, have you ever done so against a REAL gun loaded with Simmunitions (plastic bullets) so you can be *certain* the technique really works... 8) Have you volunteered to be sprayed in the face with pepper spray so you know exactly what it feels like and then proceed to defend yourself against your practice attacker despite the pain? (Who says bad guys can't carry OC?) 9) Do you know the basics of how a gun works and had at least minimal time at the range learning how to shoot so that if you ever find that your gun disarm *worked*, now you know what to do with the gun? 10) Have you ever soaped up your practice mats and tried defending yourself while standing on slippery surfaces (watch how many of you quickly abandon kicking above the knee) or blind fold and turn out the lights for dark fighting, or taken your self defense into the back seat of an old car to see how the limited confines affect your technique choices? If not, you might be in for a scary surprise some day. These are just a few of the reasons why our school has a separate self defense class from our martial arts class. Self Defense is heavily dependant upon being able to improvise, modify and to think very quickly under the influence of stress. So before your soothe your mind with the thought that you have been learning self defense for all these years, take a glance at this check list (for starters) and see how much of this is covered AND practiced in your school. If your school comes up short, consider supplementing your training. I find many martial artists who come to our self defense class suddenly feel like white belts all over again when they realize just how little they know about the subject. Meghan Gardner Director Guard Up, Inc. www.guardup.com Waltham, MA USA "Always carry love in your heart, and a knife in your pocket." me ------------------------------ From: Brian Myers Date: Thu, 12 Jul 2001 07:35:25 -0500 Subject: the_dojang: RE : Loss of Rank Question... > Are there any examples of an individual, or group of > individuals, who lost rank and/or titles due to poor behavior? > I am not referring to the quiet postponement of testing, etc., > but open and visible consequences for misbehavior? I am > especially referring to higher ranks in an organization. > How can we expect our color belts to look up to and > strive for specific ranks/titles if those in these positions > are not maintaining the very ideals they are encouraging > everyone ELSE to live by? Yes, most definitely. Within the ATA there have been many cases of Dan holders and lower rank students alike, being stripped of rank for breaches of basic manners, honor, discipline. There have recently been examples of 4th and 5th Dans being expelled from the organization for infractions against students, both per the organization and per civil law. There have been a number of instructors either stripped of their instructor certification and/or losing their school completely due to ethics and morals violations. By in large the ATA watches all of its students and instructors very closely, always trying to maintain discipline and diginity for itself and its membership. The ATA takes discipline, honor, and moral correctness very seriously, even trying to instill those ideas into our youngest students. Many practitioners of other forms of martial arts often comment on the formalities that the ATA practices, even at individual school class sections. My instructor, however, has for quite some time now taken the practice of bowing to one's seniors one step farther than most. At the end of class we bow to the head instructor (who is always actively instructing in every class), recite our "Songahm Spirit of Taekwondo" (a recitation of the tenants we try to live everyday), bow to the senior student, then the senior instructor has ALL students, including the Dan holders and instructors, bow to the parents that are present. We all feel that it is important for our students to show the same honor to their parents that they afford to us as instructors, and try to reinforce that idea. This type of attention to the detail of honor and dignity is something that I feel is important for all Martial Arts and Martial Sports practitioners to show. If enough of us show this fine example of proper behavior in general society, it might just start to rub off on the rest of society. Think of the possibilities, if everyone just showed the proper respect for others! Respectfully yours in the Martial Spirit, Brian ------------------------------ From: "Juleen Wheeler" Date: Thu, 12 Jul 2001 06:37:28 -0700 Subject: the_dojang: Re: The_Dojang-Digest V8 #399 Dear Master Timmerman. Was it the business practices of WKSW or the art/techniques that you didn't like? Thanks Dave ------------------------------ From: "jere-hilland" Date: Thu, 12 Jul 2001 08:48:21 -0400 Subject: the_dojang: Student Age vs. Technique I am not interested in anyone under 21 years old and under the rank of 3rd dan teaching at my dojang. Remember you are excepting liability for them when they teach in your dojang. There are exceptions but those folks are usually in their 30's or older and have prior experience in another art other than hapkido. In our dojang, my wife and I are the only teachers, but from a academic view point, the owners of the dojang are still liable regardless of who is teaching the class. In my opinion, teaching ability and technical ability are two different things. Jere R. Hilland www.geocities.com/hapkiyukwonsul ------------------------------ From: Piotr Bernat Date: Thu, 12 Jul 2001 08:09:28 +0200 Subject: the_dojang: Re: Dan, Instructors, Weapons > I am most interested in hearing what "other" TKD organizations do, and > what individual school owners and instructors think. As for being Dan holder, we do follow the guidelines of Kukkiwon, it means that Dan grade can be achieved at age 15. However, younger students can test for Poom which is basically the same (only belt colour is different). To take part in an instructor`s course, one has to to be at least 18 years old and high school graduate. This is the same for ALL sports (not only martial arts) in Poland. Weapons: we do teach Eskrima stick to kids around the age of 13 or so. Younger students are allowed to spar with special soft foam sticks, but this is simply for fun. As for knife, we decide it individually (usually ca. 16 years old and some 4-5 years of training experience). Regards - -- Piotr Bernat dantaekwondo@lublin.home.pl http://www.taekwondo.prv.pl ------------------------------ From: Bruce.Sims@med.va.gov Date: Thu, 12 Jul 2001 08:27:55 -0500 Subject: the_dojang: RE:Research? Dear John: "...Master Lee did a tremendous amount of research into the old, traditional styles of Korea, most notably Taekyon and Soobak. His desire was to have a truly Korean martial art, not influenced by other martial arts styles, and with that goal in mind, he developed the Songahm style, which bears no resemblence to any other martial art style." I'm with you in your response to the above comment, but I want to go you one better. I would like to hear some specific information on just what it is that constititutes "a tremendous amount of research". Perhaps I am selling historical figures short but I can't say that I personally have seen or heard of much in the way of "tremendous research" in any of the stories or claims that come up in these last few exchanges. What I do hear is that various people took the same pot of techniques shook them a little different way and spilled them out into a curriculum. Is this the "tremendous research" people are alluding to? Mind you, I am not citing someone like Chen, Wangting to whom Chen Tai Chi Chuan is traditionally ascribed, or Takeda, Sokaku who was essentially a one-man revivification project for the Aizu fighting systems (DRAJJ). Instead what I am referring to is someone who emphasized more kicks than punches (or more punches than kicks) with modifications and discernments so slight that even the practitioners of the arts themselves cannot differentiate among these various personages and arts except on a political and organizational basis. So how about we share the wealth, yes? If Master Lee did "tremendous research" with whom did he do that research on Taek kyon and Soo Bahk. Do we have names or (gawd forbid) titles? Do we have locations, curriculum, biomechanics, documentation, etc.? Were there comparative analysis of "sine-wave" execution of techniques versus the more conventional execution? I'll cut this off so others can have a chance to respond but there is one other point that I would make before I do. Follow a series of posts I have been mulling over the nature of Ship Pa'l Gi as it is defined as "Korean Kung Fu". My research is taking me back to the 18 Monk Fist (aka 18 Lohan Fist, aka 18 Hand of the Arahat). What I am finding is that the 18 techniques are less specific responses to a situation rather than 18 deportments, or 18 biomechanics which serve as the basis or starting point of a particular line or constellation of techniques. These biomechanics have become almost standard to about every standard MA in China, Japan and Korea. IMHO taking a position that one wishes to formulate a MA which "bears no resemblance to any other martial art" is something of a fools' errand and I would question the individuals motives, if not his sanity to attempt it. Best Wishes, Bruce ------------------------------ From: Ray Terry Date: Thu, 12 Jul 2001 7:00:56 PDT Subject: the_dojang: Hapkido > Again, and this is the most important thing to remember, there never was 'A' > style called Hapkido. Counter example, Sung Moo Kwan Hapkido. > GM Lee ... has NEVER been involved with 'Hapkido' since. Ah ha... :) Ray Terry raymail@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com ------------------------------ From: Bruce.Sims@med.va.gov Date: Thu, 12 Jul 2001 08:39:03 -0500 Subject: the_dojang: RE: Teaching Stuff Dear Lorne: "...On to other things, I know there are no secrets but as you said as you train you gain knowledge. As I am learning the next phase of my curriculum, there are concepts and intricatcies that I would not have understood if I learned them earlier. That is a problem I have with the Dahn Moo Do curriculum as they teach such techniques as palm strikes and fan techniques without the proper development of Ki power needed for effective techniques...." I won't pretend to speak for Dakin, but I want to clarify a point I made regarding secrets. I am sure I am safe in saying that most of the experienced MA on this Net appreciate the need to prioritize the revelation of material to the student. The point that I was stressing is the willful or contrived manipulation of information including obfuscating facts and relationships, denying or obscuring applications or needlessly abridging explanations. When this is done, especially with the motive of student retention, maintaining authority or promoting greater commercial reward I think the teachers' short-term gains to his wallet and ego are bought at the expense to the art and the students. Most certainly, as you point out, it would be expected and is in fact an obligation of a teacher to provide material at the students optimal time. I hope this helps. Best Wishes, Bruce ------------------------------ From: J T Date: Thu, 12 Jul 2001 06:35:34 -0700 (PDT) Subject: the_dojang: A player must play GM Hackworth, I have a couple in-laws, hyungs and samchuns (brothers and uncles) in Korea that I discuss martial arts with. All of them thus far refer to being players in TKD, HKD or Kumdo. When they refer to practicing martial arts they say they play. So in essence there might be a more "appropriate" term to use, but in general it seems most of them refer to themselves as players and a player must play. :) Jeremy __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get personalized email addresses from Yahoo! Mail http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/ ------------------------------ From: "Burdick, Dakin Robert" Date: Thu, 12 Jul 2001 09:09:52 -0500 Subject: the_dojang: Hidden Knowledge vs. Discovered Knowledge The original statement was: > >> You never know what knowledge resides in the higher levels > >> until you get there. My response: > > I've got to say, I really dislike this sort of statement. David Zaruba asked: > Why do you dislike it? It is not necessarily the "secrets" that you learn > but the material you begin to "understand" with extended practice that > allows you to learn more advanced material. I dislike the statement because all too often it is used as an excuse rather than an explanation of learning. There are a few ways to interpret the statement, right? 1. "You are beginning a lifelong journey of learning and discovery": This is what David is talking about, in that you continue to learn and see more complex associations in the material, and these increasingly complex associations enrich your understanding as a whole. 2. "The real learning begins at black belt": Well, not really, otherwise why am I paying for class now? What this instructor probably meant to say was #1 above. On the other hand, some instructors actually say #3 below. 3. "When you reach black belt, I'll teach you the really good stuff": This is where the excuses start. Often this is accompanied by an extended period of training leading to the aforementioned rank. The reasoning behind this is two-fold: a. This withholding of knowledge is a tool for determining loyalty and personal character of the student, which is of course essential when teaching an effective combative style. A better solution would be to just spend more time with the student and find out who he/she really is, but often commercial concerns are primary and if you have 120 students you can't spend that kind of time with each one. b. Promising secrets keeps students coming to class even when they aren't really learning that much. Wouldn't their time be better spent going off and learning something else. After all, like Bruce says, life is short. It is 3b that gets my goat, and I guess it has more to do with the marketing of the arts than with the time put into them. You will learn something from those years of training, even if the instructor turns out to not really know what he/she is talking about. For example, I did tkd for a lot of years. Was it good for me? Well, I learned stance work very well and gained a certain amount of body awareness. On the other hand, it took a toll on my body. Several of my friends now have back, knee or hip problems earlier than they should have, because of their practice of tkd. That's the downside. Wouldn't it have been better for me to train for say a year or two in tkd and then switch to some other art, learn that and eventually settle into a defensive style that preserved my health a bit better? Well, I'm sure that will start up another spirited round of discussion, don't you think? :) Take care folks, Dakin Burdick burdickd@indiana.edu ------------------------------ From: Bruce.Sims@med.va.gov Date: Thu, 12 Jul 2001 09:11:49 -0500 Subject: the_dojang: RE:3000 techniques Dear Patrick: "....It is mind numbing to even guesstimate! Do you include stone, knife, and plate throwing? How about Tae Kyon? I have never totaled up the number of technique I have, have you?...." In a word, "no". And that is exactly my point. I have not and neither has anyone else. Of course that does not stop people from throwing this bit of trivia around ad nauseum. Already people have cited Choi, Ji, and others as identifying over 3,000 techniques. GM Lee states in his BLACK BELT interview that he mastered over 4,000 techniques before he was 11. I think the thing that drives this is exactly the hyperbole that you share in your post ("... it is mind-numbing to even guesstimate."). We could agree that there are a lot of techniques, say in Hapkido arts. Fine. Dr. Kimm has researched and participated in at least three major lines of these arts and has two major tomes on Hapkido, one on KSW as well as a work on his own particular brand of Hapkido art--- Han Mu Do. Start counting the techniques and see how many you come up with. Do you know anybody who knows 3,000 techniques? I've been training for 16 years and I have yet to break 1,000 and that includes 4 weapons. In 16 years I have never met anyone that knows that many techniques. Now if you want to include permutations such as "done with left hand", "done with right hand," "done as part of transition" etc., yes, we would be overwhelmed in a minute. But if I can draw on Mathematics for a second consider the following. When you learn a math "technique" --- say addition-- you learn something plus some produces a sum. It is not a separate technique to say lets add up 4 numbers to get a sum, or add up 4 oranges instead of 8 golf balls. The "technique" of addition is the same. In like manner a punch is a punch and a kick is a kick. While I will give you that trajectory and vectors produce different types of kicks, identifying 2 front kicks as fundamentally different from 3 front kicks or a kick with the left foot is fundamentally different from that same kick with the right foot borders on the innane. As far as your other comment concerning techniques for Taek kyon and plate-throwing I think you confirmed my position for me. From all that I have gathered here on the DD nobody is able to identify with any firmness what the entire corpus of the Taek kyon, rock-throwing, plate-throwing, Soo Bahk, Kwon Bop or any other traditional Korean martial tradition was. I will suggest to you a cure for this conundrum, though. The next time someone starts handing you this crap about thousands of techniques, try that response people use when confronted about starving children in China. Ask your source to identify all 3000 techniques.Unless, of course you have one of those "i-gotta-secret"- teacher types. Then, my friend, you may be in REAL trouble. Best Wishes, Bruce ------------------------------ From: Bruce.Sims@med.va.gov Date: Thu, 12 Jul 2001 09:39:52 -0500 Subject: the_dojang: RE: Title Stuff Dear Michael: "... If you ever get a chance to understand the basic mechanics of Sin Moo Hapkido then you will know WHY Doju Nim Ji is a true founder of so many Hapkido organizations,, he don't just talk the talk, but you better believe he can walk the walk...." I can't say for sure whether I am questioning GM Ji's technical skills. I hope I am not because that was not the point of my posts on these titles. Obviously GM Ji must be a highly competent practitioner and teacher --- mostly because a lot of other people think and say so and that approaches the crux of my point. My acid-test for titles and positions is "if you have to tell people what you are-- you're not." In my life I have met JR West once---and that was last February. In addressing his Internationale he stated quite clearly that "I am not a master of anything." He does not ask for such a title or term of address. I address him as "Master West" because in the short time that I have known him he has done nothing but work towards the good of his art and that of his students. He maintains high standards as well as high skill levels both for himself and his students. But most importantly the use of a title is something people I saw at the Internationale do because they wanted to---- they wanted to acknowledge the man and the sacrifices he makes to do what he does. In my life I have met Dr. Kimm, He-young once---and that was last February. I shook his hand and addressed him as "Dr Kimm". Once again I was in the presence of a man whose fame and work preceeded him. He didn't have to ask for respect, but that was all he was going to get from me--- my respect: deep, heartfelt and plenty of it. My issue regarding titles is the nature of those people who must request such deportment from people and then the use of a title which is contrived. My issue is not whether a person deserves respect as much as the manipulations people do to make sure they get what they have determined to be their share of pomp and regard. Best Wishes, Bruce aka: His Most Honored and Worshipful Master of Keyboard Sool (minimum 3 bows) ------------------------------ From: "Michael Rowe (outlook)" Date: Thu, 12 Jul 2001 10:00:26 -0500 Subject: the_dojang: RE: mooyekwan and combat hapkido <> Whatever Michael Rowe Dan Il Kwan - Gym of Unity Unity Church of Omaha 3424 N 90th Street Omaha, Nebraska 68134 ------------------------------ From: Ray Terry Date: Thu, 12 Jul 2001 8:40:12 PDT Subject: the_dojang: . ------------------------------ End of The_Dojang-Digest V8 #400 ******************************** It's a great day for Taekwondo! Support the USTU by joining today. 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