From: the_dojang-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com To: the_dojang-digest@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Subject: The_Dojang-Digest V8 #401 Reply-To: the_dojang@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Errors-To: the_dojang-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Precedence: The_Dojang-Digest Thur, 12 July 2001 Vol 08 : Num 401 In this issue: the_dojang: RE: The_Dojang-Digest V8 #399 the_dojang: re: Titles stuff the_dojang: oops the_dojang: Re: Coming Events the_dojang: RE:Hey! Carstens' Back! the_dojang: Re: He says Hwarangdo I say Hapkido(sung to the tune of....) ? 4 Carsten the_dojang: Re: ATA Question the_dojang: RE: The_Dojang-Digest V8 #400 Re: the_dojang: re: Titles stuff the_dojang: RE: mooyekwan and combat hapkido the_dojang: sport,art,self defense,and really smart green belts! the_dojang: Meghan's List the_dojang: Re: The_Dojang-Digest: spinning heel kick the_dojang: Players will Play the_dojang: Martial Arts Passion the_dojang: Secrets Re: the_dojang: Meghan's List the_dojang: . ========================================================================= The_Dojang, serving the Internet since June 1994. ~1111 members strong! Copyright 1994-2001: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource The premier internet discussion forum devoted to the Korean Martial Arts. Replying to this message will NOT unsubscribe you. To unsubscribe, send "unsubscribe the_dojang-digest" (no quotes) in the body (top line, left justified) of a "plain text" e-mail addressed to majordomo@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com. To send e-mail to this list use the_dojang@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com See the Korean Martial Arts (KMA) FAQ and the online search engine for back issues of The_Dojang at http://www.MartialArtsResource.com Pil Seung! ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Gregory Giddins Date: Thu, 12 Jul 2001 09:14:01 -0600 Subject: the_dojang: RE: The_Dojang-Digest V8 #399 >Anyway I hope I didn't sound to negative. I just felt that I had offer a >viewpoint from some one who is involved in this mere "sport". >Frank Don't sweat it, Frank. You made some great points. Just keep in mind there will always be the insecure types floating around who try to couterbalance their insecurity with condesending remarks aimed at those who are different than they are. They don't usually figure out that thier negative emotional state can't be corrected by a negative action. They just dig themselves deeper into their own neurotic trap. You will see it again and again with the "Sport vs. Art", "TSD vs. TKD", "Hapkido vs. Kuk Sul", "Korean vs. Japanese" etc etc etc. That's a battle that can't be won by either side, because it centers around subjectivity and percieved vaule. There are no metrics to measure a persons "REAL street fight/combat/tough guy" ability. And theres certianly no way to gauge an entire organizations ability to instill "whoop a** techniques" to it's students. It's an absurd argument. Keep training, it sounds like you enjoy it. You made it to greenbelt, which is much longer than most ever achieve. Kudos. Just try to let the insecure, snippy, overcompensating posts roll off your back. The writers are dishonoring themselves, and they know it, deep inside. The best way to help them is to give them silence, so the echoes of their last words repeat in their own heads again, and again. Good post. Greg Giddins (A non-sport guy, who has learned to appreciate the rigors and benefits of sport trianing) ------------------------------ From: "phil" Date: Thu, 12 Jul 2001 11:47:33 -0400 Subject: the_dojang: re: Titles stuff I am not a scholar, but found your post to be a challenge and thought that I might learn something in the process of some research. >So, lets have some fun. The Independence Movement during the Japanese >Occupation included participation by a number of "kwans." Could some of our >more scholarly types please identify the titles of the individuals who were >instrumental in leading the Independence Movements (1910 to 1930). "Han Kyo" very instrumental in initiating martial arts during this period. No title (GM. Dr. Demi God Etc.) was associated in the writings I found. Except for "high ranking military officer." >If thats too tough, perhaps I can suggest an easier one. The Yi dynasty lasted >from 1390 to 1910. Since the originator of a martial art would most probably >be a personality of considerable import ( of the nature of what the Chen family >patriarch would be to TAI CHI CHAUN, Kano to Judo, etc.) perhaps someone >can cite at least one occasion during the Yi dynasty identifying an originator of >an art and the title by which he is identified in the literature. "Gichin Funakoshi" Shoto-kan (title "Master" most associated in the writings I have found) Now there will probably be some debate on this one, but so what. Thats why I chose to use this particular reference in light of all the recent discussions. During this research I did learn something. Time to get back on the matt. research and the past are great, but too much time in books and not enough time on the matt makes Jack a beat-up bruised boy. ( I hate when that happens) Phil No Title ------------------------------ From: "Master Frank Clay" Date: Thu, 12 Jul 2001 11:43:45 -0400 Subject: the_dojang: oops folks, obviously i can't type too well.... when i said "some people think that being a sports practitioner is a bad thing... it is." i meant to say it is not. sorry for the confusion, and i hope i didn't tick anyone off too bad after that one. My fault guys... i sincerely apologize for that as thats not what i was trying to say... i guess i hit the send button too fast :) Frank ------------------------------ From: DrgnSlyr5@aol.com Date: Thu, 12 Jul 2001 12:03:43 EDT Subject: the_dojang: Re: Coming Events In a message dated 7/11/2001 6:41:12 AM Pacific Daylight Time, the_dojang-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com writes: << Is this the same symposium that S Don Angier will be presenting at? >> No. A list of instructors for this event can be found at http://hometown.aol.com/tgfhaircuts4u/index.html DS ------------------------------ From: Bruce.Sims@med.va.gov Date: Thu, 12 Jul 2001 11:00:10 -0500 Subject: the_dojang: RE:Hey! Carstens' Back! Dear Carsten: "...You know you're talking as an American/westerner right? Titles are an essential part of most Asian cultures - or are we talking Korean/Japanese >< Western masters?..." Its really good to hear from you again. Its been a while. Regarding the whole title thing I must keep coming back to my original thought. Its not that titles are not important, or that some people deserve them and some people don't. I don't think thats my issue. My issue is that people fabricate a title, and then that title takes on a life of its own. My question in the first place is why it was necessary to fabricate a title and in the second place why it is necessary to compel people to use that title which was fabricated. Lets use the title "grandmaster". Near as I can tell that title didn't even exist in MA culture until after WW2 and probably well into the 60-s. Now we have these GM coming out of the walls and some of them can get pretty icey if you don't use the term. I was given to believe that pursuit of martial training involved subduing ones' passions and facing ones' ego. How come just plain ol' "master" -- or better-- "teacher" isn't good enough for those in the rarified atmosphere of MA leadership? (I even saw some clown running around with a "Supreme Grand Master" {Escrima?} and another with "Great Grand Master {Okinawa-te?} ) If we are to teach authentic Korean MA are we not to be bound by authentic Korean protocols? Best Wishes, Bruce aka: Most Serene and Loquacious Purveyor of Protocol Poop ------------------------------ From: JSaportajr@aol.com Date: Thu, 12 Jul 2001 13:56:34 EDT Subject: the_dojang: Re: He says Hwarangdo I say Hapkido(sung to the tune of....) ? 4 Carsten In a message dated 7/12/2001 11:14:42 AM Eastern Daylight Time, the_dojang-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com writes: Carsten Jorgenson wrote: << Yes, the spinning heel kick comes from Hwarang Do. Actually, it would be interesting to hear his definition of Hapkido, I doubt if it is as you think. >> Dear Carsten, First, I will try and look up the quote ASAP. It was in an interview in Black Belt Magazine recently. Second, may I turn your question back on you? It seems that you have some ideas about the history of Hapkido and how it evolved, but you don't state it directly. I think you have some interesting things to say, but you often state them so elliptically its hard for me to be clear about what exactly your position is. You seem to suggest, if I have understood you, that there were many systems being taught and practiced in Korea that included jointlocks, etc and which looked like Hapkido, but were not necessarily brought to Korea by Choi Young Sool. You seem to suggest that practitioners came together under the umbrella as Hapkido but their art did not necessarily have a common source. Is that what you are saying? If, so, then your position would be controversial and I believe difficult to defend. Let me ask you this. What do you think the Grand Master I referred to meant when he said Hwarangdo was Hapkido? I know you weren't there, but if you could play this out it would help me be clearer about your view. Why did my acquaintance use the term, Hapkido? I noticed that you said that yes, the spinning heel kick comes from Hwarangdo whereas my Korean acquaintance who studied with GM Joo Bong Lee and Joo Sang Lee beginning in 1961 said that it came from HAPKIDO. Why do you say Hwarangdo and he says Hapkido? Are you saying that what he studied in 1961 with the Lee brothers was not Hapkido but was Hwarangdo, and he just doesn't know it? Im confused about what you are implying. Jose' ------------------------------ From: JSaportajr@aol.com Date: Thu, 12 Jul 2001 13:36:07 EDT Subject: the_dojang: Re: ATA Question When I trained at GM H.U. Lee's early dojang in Omaha his most senior, number one student under him was a man named Dale Craig. He did most of the teaching and he was an amazingly talented martial artist. I saw Dale in his first full contact bout, at Boy's Town in Omaha. There was one technique in the fight. Dale walked up, front kicked his opponent in the abdomen, and the guy dropped, fight was over. Dale then leapt from the ring and grabbed GM Lee and embraced him. I remember this tournament also in that Dr. Kim from Louisiana gave an amazing Hapkido demonstration, including the fan. Dale took over the Omaha ATA school after GM Lee moved to LIttleRock. He got into some trouble, which I prefer not to detail here, and after this I believe that he moved to Little Rock. I have heard that he subsequently had a falling out with GM Lee. I am curious if any of the ATA folks know anything about this. Did Dale Craig continue with GM Lee after Lee developed Songham? Is Dale Craig still teaching martial arts, if so what organization did he go into after leaving the ATA? I am curious what happened to the man who for many years, at least 10 I would say, was GM Lee's closest and most senior student, not counting Dick Reed. If you are at liberty to say but you prefer not to do so publicly, feel free to respond to me privately. Thanks Jose' ------------------------------ From: "Master Frank Clay" Date: Thu, 12 Jul 2001 13:55:27 -0400 Subject: the_dojang: RE: The_Dojang-Digest V8 #400 Sally, Frank wrote: << We are told not to use some of the techniques in competition simply because they are too dangerous to allow people to try during a match. >> I never wrote this... however, i think i do agree with it. When was the last time you saw a soo do to the throat in competition? I agree partially anyhow. Frank ------------------------------ From: Ray Terry Date: Thu, 12 Jul 2001 10:51:23 PDT Subject: Re: the_dojang: re: Titles stuff > During this research I did learn something. Time to get back on the matt. > research and the past are great, but too much time in books and not enough > time on the matt makes Jack a beat-up bruised boy. ( I hate when that > happens) Here here!!! Protocols, traditions, past/history, etc are sometimes somewhat interesting. But best to get out there, be active, create new protocols, traditions, and history. Lead the way. IMO. Ray Terry raymail@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com ------------------------------ From: jsegovia@mindspring.com Date: Thu, 12 Jul 2001 13:48:10 -0400 Subject: the_dojang: RE: mooyekwan and combat hapkido Michael, I didn't see your original post on this topic, but let me assure you that MooyeKwan was a traditional Hapkido kwan, fully sanctioned by recognized international Hapkido authorities, people who personally know Master Harold Whalen and his Hapkido skills and record as an instructor and leader. Master Whalen is a well-known figure in American Hapkido and has been for many years. I've been associated with him for over ten years. There are lots of senior instructors who have personal experience with Hal, many of them on this list. Feel free to ask any of them if you have any questions or doubts. Lastly, I honestly like the name of your kwan, the Gym of Unity. In the interests of unity, let's forget about this and return to our discussion of martial arts. Jesse ------------------------------ From: Dave Weller Date: Thu, 12 Jul 2001 12:50:27 -0500 Subject: the_dojang: sport,art,self defense,and really smart green belts! Mr Kelly Posted some responses to Mr. Clay's comments: >From: "Graham, Kelly" >Subject: the_dojang: WTF TKD - Is a practical means of self defence >This is my first post to this list, Please take my comments with a grain >of salt as I currently hold a green belt in WTF TKD. My Instructor was once >a member of the ITF though. > >"For those of you without a practical background on the street, and I truly >hope that number is small, what works in a TKD competition does not >necessarily work on the street." > >This is very true, however we are taught many things that are not for use in >a competition. >We are told not to use some of the techniques in competition simply because >they are too dangerous to allow people to try during a match. Their are >times when my instructor brings chairs and tables into the class, so that >we can learn what it is like to try and use kicks in crowded spaces. We also >have classes where we train spar in our street clothes to see how little >movement they really offer. However, everyone is required to do some >full-contact sparing in classes some of the time so that they learn what >being in a "fight" is like. > >" What I learned first as Taekwondo which was an oldt style of Kwan >training, was highly effective on the street... yet when pitted against KKW >TKD'd rules was absolutely awful. The aims and goals >of sport are different... irrespctive of how anyone wants to sugar coat it. >Baseball is still a sport, yet I can all ways use the ball or the bat in >self defense. " > >Boxing is also a sport. The brown belt felt that he would educate my >friend in what fighting >was. Lets just say that it was very quick, and hopefully the brown belt >learned something that day. > >"My point in this is simple... be honest and tell people hey, we do sport, >or >hey we do martial art. Its that simple. As far as many of the old time >masters, I know of a couple myself... and yes what they teach tends to not >be sport, however, that is not always true. The funny thing is some people >act like being a sports practitioner is a bad thing.. it is." > >it is? so you are saying that being a sports practitioner is a bad thing? >I'm sorry that you feel that way. I try to appreciate all athletes. I enjoy >watching any athlete that excels at any "sport". I feel the same way when I >watch my instructor perform a form as I do watching a world class gymnast on >TV. I'm not claiming that my instructor is a world class athlete. Nor do I >look down on those who have chosen to pursue traditional western sports. The >dedicate as much and in many cases more to their "lifestyle" than many >martial artists that I have meet. I don't know of many 17 year olds who move >away from home to study martial arts, yet I know more than a few who have >moved away to learn how to play better hockey (yes I live in Canada). > >Anyway I hope I didn't sound to negative. I just felt that I had offer a >viewpoint from some one who is involved in this mere "sport". Amazing. A green belt. Who seems to have a better grasp of this controversy than several persons with lots of hash marks on their belts. Kudos to you Mr. Kelly, your training is obviously good, and you have grasped concepts in your short time in the ART that others who have trained for decades have missed. Yours in "sports", dave weller student wtf tkd "Practice a thousand hours and you learn self discipline. Practice ten thousand hours and you learn about yourself." Myamoto Musashi ------------------------------ From: "Craig Stovall" Date: Thu, 12 Jul 2001 15:39:17 -0500 Subject: the_dojang: Meghan's List I thought Meghan's Self-Defense list was so good that I couldn't help but add to it. Keep in mind that I'm choosing to remain totally within the confines of an unarmed one-on-one scenario, and will not address any of the mental dynamics (rather I'll stick to some of the often neglected technical necessities of fighting). 1. Do you have any groundfighting skills, whatsoever? More precisely...do you know what to do if you are flat on your back with a large, aggressive predator sitting astride your torso with thick hands and bad intentions? Do you have the ability to minimize the damage from strikes? Do you have the ability to reverse the position, and escape and/or establish a dominant position from which to begin your own attack? 2. Do you know how to thwart a tackle? Do you know how to sprawl, and prevent an attacker from putting you flat on your backside via the "football tackle", or defend against the single/double leg takedown? Do you know how to escape and/or establish dominant position once the "tackle" has been successfully defended? 3. Do you know how to fight from the standing clinch position? Specifically, have you drilled the ability to pummel to a position of control? Do you know the control points and "handles" on your opponents body that you should be fighting to control? Do you understand the role that clothing plays in a standing grapple? Specifically, do you know how to use your opponents clothing to throw them, control them, choke them, etc? 4. Do you know how to pin/immobilize a resisting opponent? Do you know how to position you body so that your attacker carries your weight? Do you know how to do this while expending as little energy as possible? Do you know how to position yourself during an immobilization so as to minimize your danger from a counterattack...bites, strikes, and gouges? 5. Do you possess an arsenal of joint locks and/or chokes? Do you have the ability to work these against a resisting opponent (read; have you grappled on the mat with a RESISTING opponent that KNOWS the game that you're playing)? Are your locks of a nature (given your particular size and stength) that you could dislocate a major joint (elbow, shoulder, knee) should the need arise? Do you have the ability to choke an attacker unconscious either with or without the use of clothing? Do you know how to do this without causing death and/or permanent injury? Do you know how to do this and CAUSE death and/or permanent injury (should the case warrant such force)? 6. Do you have the ability to put an attacker on the ground? Have you drilled sweeps/reaps/throws that would work on a large, resisting opponent? Do you understand how to unbalance a person in order to make these tactics effective? Do you understand how to put a person down from the standing clinch (if #3 whizzed by you...probably not)? Do you know how to attack the legs? Can you work the three basic (and time proven) takedowns of freestyle wrestling...single leg, double leg, and high-crotch? Can you put someone down without hurting them (for those millions of times we get attacked by a drunk brother-in-law)? Can you put someone down in such a manner that it effectively ends the fight (for those rare occasions that we're attacked by the "boogie man")? 7. Can you slip a real punch? Do you put on gloves and headgear and practice evading REAL punches (within reason..."yo ADRIAN!!!")? Can you bob-and-weave while zoning to your attacker's blind side (both with and without grappling)? 8. How far can you run without stopping? How far can you run at 50%, 75%, and 100% intensity? How fast can you run a quarter mile? How high can you jump? Can you climb an 8-foot chain-link fence? Can you bound over a 6-foot privacy fence? 9. What is your conditioning like in terms of strength, and muscular endurance? How much weight can you dead lift from the floor? How many pounds can you lift via an overhead press? How many pushups can you do in a row? How many sit-ups? How many squats? 10. Have you conditioned your body to relax under performance conditions? Do you quickly tire during sparring because of the tension in your body? Are you unable to grapple for long periods (at LEAST 30 minutes straight) because of the tension in your body? Well, far from comprehensive...but indicative of SOME of what's needed (per my experience) to build real world defensive (and offensive) capabilities. I apologize for not including 360 degree jump spinning kicks, pressure point strikes to minute spots on the body, standing wrist-locks against multiple attackers, and all those other amazing techniques that poor little old me just can't get to work...so far:) Maybe one of these days I'll learn the super secret method of enticing two would-be muggers into lovingly grabbing both of my wrists in such a way that I can easily wrist-lock them into submission without breaking a sweat. Until then...I can only dream of making the cover of Black Belt. Oh well. Please critique at your leisure. Craig "...and I am all out of bubble gum" Stovall Perpetual White Belt _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com ------------------------------ From: David Beck Date: Thu, 12 Jul 2001 15:36:28 -0500 (CDT) Subject: the_dojang: Re: The_Dojang-Digest: spinning heel kick "Carsten Jorgensen" wrote: >>> He told me that Hwarangdo is basically Hapkido. (He also told me about how at the time there was no spinning heel kick in Taekwondo but he, and many other >practitioners took the spinning heel kick from Hapkido and started using it in their Taekwondo sparring). << > >Yes, the spinning heel kick comes from Hwarang Do. Actually, it would be interesting to hear his definition of Hapkido, I doubt if it is as you think. Dojunim Ji told me the spinning heel kick is HIS invention. I'm talking about the knee straight, bent ankle, toes pointed parallel to the ground, rotate from the hip version, there are many different varieties out there now. It'd be silly to say in all the history of combat that no one else ever did the same motion; but I don't believe it showed up in any competitions or books before Dojunim Ji started teaching it. I think he WAS the first to teach it in an organized martial art style and it comes from Hapkido, not Hwarangdo. David N. Beck, WATT Lead Engineer Internet: David.Beck@usa.alcatel.com Phone: 972-519-3103 Address: MS TAND1, 1000 Coit Road, Plano, Texas 75075 ** Opinions expressed are not those of Alcatel USA ** ------------------------------ From: "hackworth" Date: Thu, 12 Jul 2001 16:30:27 -0400 Subject: the_dojang: Players will Play Jeremy wrote: "I have a couple in-laws, hyungs and samchuns (brothers > and uncles) in Korea that I discuss martial arts with. > All of them thus far refer to being players in TKD, > HKD or Kumdo. When they refer to practicing martial > arts they say they play. So in essence there might be > a more "appropriate" term to use, but in general it > seems most of them refer to themselves as players and > a player must play. :)" I have never heard anyone in Korea use the word "Player", but then again, I don't speak to them in English. Richard Hackworth http://ma_success.tripod.com ------------------------------ From: "hackworth" Date: Thu, 12 Jul 2001 16:43:56 -0400 Subject: the_dojang: Martial Arts Passion Michael Rowe wrote: "Whatever" Back to your corners gentlemen. One of the things that I like about this forum is that we can disagree on something that we both love. I have even had words on the phone and sometimes in person with people like Hal Whalen, J.R. West, Mike Tomlinson and Bruce Simms. And even though we disagree on many subjects I always smile when I hang up because I know, that guy loves Hapkido. Richard Hackworth http://khfhapkido.tripod.com ------------------------------ From: Lorne Keatley Date: Thu, 12 Jul 2001 17:20:41 -0400 Subject: the_dojang: Secrets Dakin and Bruce, I have re-read my post several times and am not sure where oyu got me talking about "secrets." I was simply talking about students not knowing the nature of some of the higher level material. Did you know the nature of the black belt material when you were still learning to tie that white belt? I think not. Would you have understanded it if your instructor tried to teach it to you. Again, probably not. Mr. Zaruba wrote my intention of that statement very eloquently in his post, so if my post confused you can read his and arrive at the point I was driving at. Now, with all due respect, for two indivduals whoe hate "secrets", both of you do a good job at hiding the points of your arguements behind rhetoric. If you believe what you believe, then great, put it out there for all to see. Otherwise, I think you will end up writing verses like Nostradamus with people scratching their heads as to the conclusions you wre trying to draw. Just a thought. Nobody Special, Lorne ------------------------------ From: Ray Terry Date: Thu, 12 Jul 2001 15:22:34 PDT Subject: Re: the_dojang: Meghan's List > 7. Can you slip a real punch? Do you put on gloves and headgear and > practice evading REAL punches (within reason..."yo ADRIAN!!!")? Can you > bob-and-weave while zoning to your attacker's blind side (both with and > without grappling)? Perhaps this was also in your list, but... can you take a punch? For safety sake, put on the gloves and headgear, but let someone punch you in the head (not too often, tho :). Not interested in brain damage here, but one should fully appreciate the 'haze' or bright white light or suddenly finding yourself on the ground and not exactly sure how you got there. Many of these come after a few years (months?) of training, but sometimes it is better to make sure the experience is built into your training instead of just assuming it will occur on its own sooner or later. However I do understand that this may be a bit too 'hardcore' for some... Ray Terry raymail@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com ------------------------------ From: Ray Terry Date: Thu, 12 Jul 2001 15:24:31 PDT Subject: the_dojang: . ------------------------------ End of The_Dojang-Digest V8 #401 ******************************** It's a great day for Taekwondo! Support the USTU by joining today. US Taekwondo Union, 1 Olympic Plaza, Ste 104C, Colorado Spgs, CO 80909 719-578-4632 FAX 719-578-4642 ustutkd1@aol.com http://www.ustu.org To unsubscribe from the_dojang-digest send the command: unsubscribe the_dojang-digest -or- unsubscribe the_dojang-digest your.old@address in the BODY (top line, left justified) of a "plain text" e-mail addressed to majordomo@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com. 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