From: the_dojang-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com To: the_dojang-digest@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Subject: The_Dojang-Digest V8 #402 Reply-To: the_dojang@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Errors-To: the_dojang-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Precedence: The_Dojang-Digest Fri, 13 July 2001 Vol 08 : Num 402 In this issue: the_dojang: GM H. U. Lee and Songahm the_dojang: Songahm and getting along the_dojang: Five Secrets Revealed! the_dojang: Re: The_Dojang-Digest V8 #388 the_dojang: ATA in Korea ? the_dojang: Players the_dojang: slaves the_dojang: Re: The_Dojang-Digest V8 #401 the_dojang: Error the_dojang: . ========================================================================= The_Dojang, serving the Internet since June 1994. ~1111 members strong! Copyright 1994-2001: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource The premier internet discussion forum devoted to the Korean Martial Arts. Replying to this message will NOT unsubscribe you. To unsubscribe, send "unsubscribe the_dojang-digest" (no quotes) in the body (top line, left justified) of a "plain text" e-mail addressed to majordomo@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com. To send e-mail to this list use the_dojang@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com See the Korean Martial Arts (KMA) FAQ and the online search engine for back issues of The_Dojang at http://www.MartialArtsResource.com Pil Seung! ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Clothahump Date: Thu, 12 Jul 2001 16:51:10 -0500 Subject: the_dojang: GM H. U. Lee and Songahm > From: Gregory Giddins > Date: Mon, 9 Jul 2001 14:45:25 -0600 > Subject: the_dojang: Songahm > > So, can anyone answer the question of how GM HU Lee was able to make a > Korean artform devoid of Japanese influence? > I don't get what they're saying, exactly. GM Lee spent many, many years researching the history of the Korean martial arts. He found references to martial arts styles in Korea as far back as 1300 years. He spoke with, and probably worked out with, some of the surviving teachers of Taekyon, etc. during his studies. When you look at the Songahm forms, they bear no resemblance whatsoever to the Japanese forms or the earlier styles of TKD. They emphasize kicking from white belt on up. A few issues back, someone posted an excellent comparison of Songahm and Taeguk (IIRC - I'm having a senior moment and have deleted the e-mail off my system :-( ). If you look at the move counts and number and type of kicks, it is obvious that Songahm is something totally different. That's what GM Lee was after - something that, as best as he could tell, paid homage to the early Korean styles of martial arts, and was not based on a martial art from another country. Now, I stand to be corrected on all of this. But this is my interpertation based on GM Lee's written philosophy and the way too few times that I got to hear him talk about the early days of Songahm and how and why it came to be what it is now. ------------------------------ From: Clothahump Date: Thu, 12 Jul 2001 17:27:33 -0500 Subject: the_dojang: Songahm and getting along > From: "Bruce Sims" > Date: Sat, 7 Jul 2001 09:25:49 -0500 > Subject: the_dojang: Re:Request for resources > > "...You have totally ignored one style of Taekwondo, however, that completely refutes your statement. That is the Songahm style, developed by Grand Master H. U. Lee and first demonstrated in 1983 with the first three colored belts forms, and the culmination coming in 1994 with the presentation of the 9th Degree Black Belt form. Songahm has no basis whatsoever in the Japanese styles; G. M. Lee's intention was to create a traditional Korean martial art that was based on the classical Korean styles, and he succeeded beautifully....." > > Sorry I didn't address this post but I was not able to identify the contriutor of this clip. Is there a resource (book, video, documentation) which can shed additional light on this art? That was me. GM Lee wrote his entire philosophy in a series of books titled _The Way of Traditional Taekwondo_. There is one volume for each colored belt rank, one for 1st Degree Black Belt and a volume on philosophy and tradition. The books can be ordered through any ATA school. If there's not one near you, contact me via e-mail and I'll be glad to order you a set. You can also visit the ATA's official website at www.taekwondousa.com . GM Lee's biography is on the site. You can also get back issues of the ATA's magazine which have told his story over the years. > ------------------------------ > From: "Phil" > Date: Sat, 7 Jul 2001 11:52:07 -0400 > Subject: the_dojang: Stuff > > Who is the founder of what. Who did what to who. Where did this or that come > from. This or that art is not really art. This art is better than that art. > How dare you state your opinion. bla bla bla bla > > I do enjoy many of the discussions on this post and find many of them to be > quite informative (after I run it through a bs filter). Is their more > interest in the past of our arts or should there be more interest in the > future of our arts ? Knowing the origins of our arts is important, but maybe > we should focus a little more on where we are going. Where are we going ? > Anyone have any idea ? > > Cant we all get along and just train? Those that do not learn from history are condemned to repeat its mistakes, maybe? I dunno. I like knowing what the lineage is, but that's just me. > ------------------------------ > From: "Craig Stovall" > Date: Sat, 07 Jul 2001 12:06:37 -0500 > Subject: the_dojang: Watchoo talkin bout Willis? > > Clothahump wrote: > > "Songahm has no basis whatsoever in the Japanese styles; G. M. Lee's > intention was to create a traditional Korean martial art that was based on > the classical Korean styles, and he succeeded beautifully." > > Help a brother out here: > > 1. What are the names of these classical Korean styles? > 2. What is the approximate time period(s) that these classical Korean > styles were practiced? > 3. What reference material to these classical Korean styles did Lee have > available? In other words, did he practice them himself (handed down > through the family), have access to written records, or base his knowledge > on oral traditions? GM Lee did an extensive amount of research on the classic Korean styles. There is evidence that some sort(s) of martial arts were practiced as far back as 1300 years ago. The two major styles that I remember (and there were probably more) were Taekyon and Soobahk. I do believe that most, but not all, of his research was done through written records. I also believe that he trained with some of the surviving practitioners of these style while he was living in Korea, but he didn't say for how long (or I forgot if he did). ------------------------------ From: "Patrick L" Date: Thu, 12 Jul 2001 15:33:28 -0700 Subject: the_dojang: Five Secrets Revealed! On the issue of secrets, one poster wrote; "...I've got to say, I really dislike this sort of statement. It implies that there are "secrets" you will only discover later on, and that all this training you've been doing will make sense and be useful...." To which Mr. Sims added; >I have heard this "i-gotta-secret" routine so many times that I could >vomit.< Secret One revealed! - please lay on your back! >The real zinger, though, is the inference that as soon as a >student/practitioner is "worthy" they will be made privey to said secret >information.< Secret Two revealed! - You have no RIGHT to be taught everything. Showing up doesn't make you worthy - Possession is nine-tenths of MA. The person with the secret gets to choose the "who and why" when sharing! >GM (Koo) has reported to me that tradtionally significant material in Hwa >Rang sword was reserved for 4th Dan and above---- for no particularly good >reason. . . . How many folks do you think were hanging around ("for no >particularly good reason") waiting until they had their 20 years in to make >4th Dan and collect the pearls dripping from the lips of their teacher? < Secret Three revealed - Not many would wait - only the "worthy" ones - see secret two above. Since he is training you - Say "Thank you" with word and deed (unless of course you are afraid of becoming "worthy"). >To all the highly touted GM who "have a secret." then, I would remind you >that the bait only draws its strength from the individual's desire for it.< Secret Four revealed - What a "blinding glimpse of the obvious!" - Are you suggesting we should stop the next person on the street and teach them one strike kills? Secret Five revealed - having your tongue in your cheek is a good way to get it bitten off :) Getting in the WAY, Patrick _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com ------------------------------ From: Clothahump Date: Thu, 12 Jul 2001 17:36:54 -0500 Subject: the_dojang: Re: The_Dojang-Digest V8 #388 > From: "ISA CONSULTATION GROUP" > Date: Sun, 08 Jul 2001 13:45:11 -0400 > Subject: the_dojang: Re: Clothahump > > In Reply to: > Clothahump wrote: > > "Songahm has no basis whatsoever in the Japanese styles; G. M. Lee's > intention was to create a traditional Korean martial art that was based on > the classical Korean styles, and he succeeded beautifully."...>>>> > > Where did GM Lee get his "stuff" for the new style called Songahm? You have > to think a bit on this Mr. Clothahump, as GM Lee studied in Korea from other > Koreans before coming to the USA. I used to be in the ATA back in the mid > 70's before he invented his new system. What I saw him and his brothers do > was pure Korean taekwondo at that time. And nobody denies that in the 70s, he was teaching Gen. Choi's forms. He did not introduce the Songahm style until 1983. ------------------------------ From: Ray Terry Date: Thu, 12 Jul 2001 17:03:25 PDT Subject: the_dojang: ATA in Korea ? I guess we can beat on the ATA guyz for awhile since the Haidong folks were pushovers... :) The ATA has schools in S. Korea? Anyone know if they teach the Protech program in those schools? (just curious) Can you obtain Kukkiwon rank via the ATA? If so, are the Taegeuk (or Palgwe) forms also taught in the ATA? (Given those forms are a requirement for Kukkiwon Dan rank.) BTW, I've heard very good things about the ATA's forms. Some instructors that left the ATA, for a wide variety of reasons, stayed with the ATA forms (yes, even tho they were not supposed to). Ray Terry raymail@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com ------------------------------ From: "Hyunsook& Ryan" Date: Fri, 13 Jul 2001 09:05:29 +0900 Subject: the_dojang: Players I think the term "player" comes from the Korean word "sun-soo". Koreans use this word for someone who is serious about whatever it is they they do be it a sport or a martial art. If you are called a "player", it is indeed a compliment. Ryan _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. ------------------------------ From: Ray Terry Date: Thu, 12 Jul 2001 19:08:13 PDT Subject: the_dojang: slaves Gov't to Include More Details of Sexual Slavery in School History Books July 12, 2001 The government plans to include in local history textbooks more detailed and vivid descriptions of the ordeal of Korean women who were forced to serve as sexual slaves by the Japanese military during World War II. The Japanese governments refusal to address the issue and the international communitys call for Japan to take accountability for its past aggressions will also be included in new history books to be told to future generations, officials in Seoul said. The Ministry of Gender Equality recently submitted to the Ministry of Education and Human Resources Development a draft revision for middle and high school history textbooks that has more thorough accounts of the "comfort women," or the sex slaves. The revised accounts for high school textbooks provide more concrete details of the horrifying ordeals comfort women had to face, saying, women had to receive sexual abuse from dozens of soldiers every day and forced to live as slaves. Passages go on to say, After the war ended, the Japanese soldiers ran away after killing or deserting the women -- victims are still suffering from the mental and physical wounds during that painful period. The revisions disclose that the Japanese government has done no efforts whatsoever to compensate the victims and punish the responsible parties, and that numerous lawsuits have been filed by former sexual slaves and civic groups against the Japanese government which turns a deaf ear regarding the issue. The draft also mentions the United Nations and other international organizations have advised Japan to take appropriate measures regarding the sexual slavery. Surprisingly, the comfort women issue was found to be mentioned very briefly in current middle and high school history textbooks with just the following sentence, even women were dragged off to the Japanese army barracks in the name of comfort women and sacrificed as sexual slaves. It was the results of the governments consideration of improved relations with Japan, some analysts said. As our textbooks explain the sexual slavery issue insufficiently, we submitted a draft which contains more accurate and full descriptions, said a Gender Equality Ministry official. The draft is under deliberation by the Education Ministry, and expected to be gradually applied to local history books from next year. While middle school books contained relatively shorter contents of the comfort women issue in the revisions, the statements were also changed to be more detailed and specific. In addition, a testimony by a former comfort woman was added to the content to better portray the inhumane treatment the victims had to go through. More than 200,000 Korean, Chinese and other Asian women were reportedly forced to serve as sexual slaves for the Japanese soldiers during the WW II. ------------------------------ From: ABurrese@aol.com Date: Thu, 12 Jul 2001 21:58:28 EDT Subject: the_dojang: Re: The_Dojang-Digest V8 #401 Craig "...and I am all out of bubble gum" Stovall Perpetual White Belt Rowdy Rod, gotta love that quote. Remember saying it a number of time back in the Army after we watched THEY LIVE. Alain ------------------------------ From: "Rudy Timmerman" Date: Thu, 12 Jul 2001 10:54:54 -0400 Subject: the_dojang: Error Wrong address. >> She is currently located at Filbert Street, San Francisco at Zip code 94109 > > Hello Mr. Loeffler: > There is a Kuk Sool school (run by Master Suh Sung Jin) on that street. Mr. Loeffler. After reading the address again, and my reply, I see that I made an error. The Kuk Sool school is on Fillmore, not Filbert Street. Sorry! Sincerely, Rudy ------------------------------ From: Ray Terry Date: Thu, 12 Jul 2001 21:24:17 PDT Subject: the_dojang: . ------------------------------ End of The_Dojang-Digest V8 #402 ******************************** It's a great day for Taekwondo! Support the USTU by joining today. US Taekwondo Union, 1 Olympic Plaza, Ste 104C, Colorado Spgs, CO 80909 719-578-4632 FAX 719-578-4642 ustutkd1@aol.com http://www.ustu.org To unsubscribe from the_dojang-digest send the command: unsubscribe the_dojang-digest -or- unsubscribe the_dojang-digest your.old@address in the BODY (top line, left justified) of a "plain text" e-mail addressed to majordomo@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com. Old digest issues are available via ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com. Copyright 1994-2001: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource Standard disclaimers apply.