From: the_dojang-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com To: the_dojang-digest@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Subject: The_Dojang-Digest V8 #403 Reply-To: the_dojang@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Errors-To: the_dojang-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Precedence: The_Dojang-Digest Fri, 13 July 2001 Vol 08 : Num 403 In this issue: the_dojang: KSW the_dojang: Alain Burrese is a true Renaissance Man the_dojang: RE: Spinning Heel kick the_dojang: Self defense the_dojang: Re: Hapkido (what is it/what were it) the_dojang: English Translations the_dojang: RE: Five Secrets Revealed the_dojang: Building a PROGRESSIVE Art... the_dojang: Re: He says Hwarangdo I say Hapkido(sung to the tune of....) ? 4 Carsten the_dojang: RE: 3000 techniques the_dojang: Hwarangdo (will the real one please stand up) Re: the_dojang: Re: He says Hwarangdo I say Hapkido(sung to the tune the_dojang: Ancient Korean Martial art the_dojang: Songham the_dojang: knife video the_dojang: . ========================================================================= The_Dojang, serving the Internet since June 1994. ~1111 members strong! Copyright 1994-2001: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource The premier internet discussion forum devoted to the Korean Martial Arts. Replying to this message will NOT unsubscribe you. To unsubscribe, send "unsubscribe the_dojang-digest" (no quotes) in the body (top line, left justified) of a "plain text" e-mail addressed to majordomo@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com. To send e-mail to this list use the_dojang@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com See the Korean Martial Arts (KMA) FAQ and the online search engine for back issues of The_Dojang at http://www.MartialArtsResource.com Pil Seung! ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Rudy Timmerman" Date: Thu, 12 Jul 2001 11:51:55 -0400 Subject: the_dojang: KSW Dave writes: > Was it the business practices of WKSW or the art/techniques that you didn't > like? Hello Dave: The art of Kuk Sool is great! Sincerely, Rudy ------------------------------ From: "Craig Stovall" Date: Thu, 12 Jul 2001 23:37:09 -0500 Subject: the_dojang: Alain Burrese is a true Renaissance Man "Rowdy Rod, gotta love that quote. Remember saying it a number of time back in the Army after we watched THEY LIVE." You have my eternal respect for knowing where that quote came from. I was wondering if anybody would pick up on it when I sent it out. Craig Stovall _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com ------------------------------ From: Bruce.Sims@med.va.gov Date: Fri, 13 Jul 2001 07:31:18 -0500 Subject: the_dojang: RE: Spinning Heel kick Yes, the spinning heel kick comes from Hwarang Do. Actually, it would be interesting to hear his definition of Hapkido, I doubt if it is as you Dear Carsten: "... Yes, the spinning heel kick comes from Hwarang Do. Actually, it would be interesting to hear his definition of Hapkido, I doubt if it is as you think...." I suppose that we could bandy this back and forth but I was surprised to find that Form 16 (Chen Taijiquan, pg 99) is intended to deal with a low spinning heel kick. Since this art dates to early 1700-s one can reasonably suppose the attack to which it developed a response would have existed at that time or possibly earlier. I don't think it would be reasonable to state that the spinning heel kick comes from HwaRang Do. One exception to this would be if one were discussing what GM Lee cites as the precursor art (Um-Yang). Another possibility might be if you discount the infusion of even earlier Chinese techniques which provide the basis for the "Kung Fu" material in Korean martial traditions. BTW: Myself and one or two other people have provided definitions of Hapkido for you. I noticed that you continue to use a lack of definition of the genre to support or defend a position regarding exclusivity to GM Lee and his art. If it serves some purpose to you to believe that GM Lee is the 58th in a lineage for a culture that carries no such institution, I have no problem with that. It does puzzle me that you would continue to participate in an intellectually-based dialogue regarding what is apparently a faith-based issue. Best Wishes, Bruce ------------------------------ From: "Rudy Timmerman" Date: Thu, 12 Jul 2001 12:07:37 -0400 Subject: the_dojang: Self defense Craig adds to Meaghan's list > 10. Have you conditioned your body to relax under performance conditions? > Do you quickly tire during sparring because of the tension in your body? > Are you unable to grapple for long periods (at LEAST 30 minutes straight) > because of the tension in your body? > > Well, far from comprehensive...but indicative of SOME of what's needed (per > my experience) to build real world defensive (and offensive) capabilities. Hi Meaghan, Craig, and Terry: The list is beginning to look formidable; however, THE most important aspect of surviving a real fight probably is "Heart" Sincerely, Rudy ------------------------------ From: "Carsten Jorgensen" Date: Fri, 13 Jul 2001 20:54:22 +0800 Subject: the_dojang: Re: Hapkido (what is it/what were it) Me: >>Again, and this is the most important thing to remember, there never was 'A' style called Hapkido. << Ray: >> Counter example, Sung Moo Kwan Hapkido. << Well, I was probably not very clear, of course there have been styleS using the Hapkido name, including Song/Sung Mu Kwan Hapkido. My point is that there never were and never will be ONE unified style. For the moment people started using the name it were a generic term for many different styles. There never were 'A' style called Hapkido. Me: >> GM Lee ... has NEVER been involved with 'Hapkido' since. << Ray: >> Ah ha... :) << ??? I don't understand the comment? Carsten Jorgensen Copenhagen, Denmark hwarangdo@email.om - -- _______________________________________________ Make PC-to-Phone calls with Net2Phone. Sign-up today at: http://www.net2phone.com/cgi-bin/link.cgi?121 ------------------------------ From: J T Date: Fri, 13 Jul 2001 05:56:00 -0700 (PDT) Subject: the_dojang: English Translations "I have never heard anyone in Korea use the word "Player", but then again, I don't speak to them in English." Hey, I am trying to learn Korean (so far I can order soju, beer and food with no problem). However, the only time my wife tends to speak Korean to me is when she is mad at me and I don't think I can repeat some of those Korean words. :) I would tend to agree that perhaps there is a translation thing going on when talking in terms of player or practitioner. However, using either term is never meant to be demeaning to anyone. Jeremy __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get personalized email addresses from Yahoo! Mail http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/ ------------------------------ From: Bruce.Sims@med.va.gov Date: Fri, 13 Jul 2001 08:02:36 -0500 Subject: the_dojang: RE: Five Secrets Revealed Dear Patrick: Thank you for taking the time to respond but I I think the issue you are raising has very little to do with "secrets" either real or imagined. If you examine a number of our posts back and forth you will find, I'm sure, that you and I have a fundmental difference regarding the nature of the educational motive in MA. If I am interpreting your position correctly you have come to believe that education is a function of the needs of the teacher. For my part I believe that education is a function of the needs of the student. Applying this to the matter I commented on, it is my belief that it has become more common practice in the MA than is desireable for teachers to withhold information from their students. When this withholding is a matter of mere prioritizing a curriculum its hard to make an arguement against it. However, (for the third post) this IS NOT the case I am commenting on. The matter that I am responding to concerns the willful withholding of material as a "tease" or manipulation to ones' students. Now, regarding your pre-occupation with the rights and authority of the teacher, originator of the art, or proprietary nature of a Korean art I can certainly make a recommendation. A number of Japanese arts operate under a rigid hierarchy of authority, elitism and exclusivity, among these being the Tesshin Shoden Katori Shinto Ryu (if you like sword) and the Daito-ryu Kodokai (if you like grappling). These arts and their adherents really get into the whole bowing-and-scraping-for-its-own-sake routine. Unfortunately this institution is not characterisitic of Korean martial tradition no matter how many titles are contrived or postures assumed by our present crop of leaders. I think Korean martial traditions are not well-served by any attempts to introduce such attitudes now. Best Wishes, Bruce ------------------------------ From: Brian Myers Date: Fri, 13 Jul 2001 07:58:34 -0500 Subject: the_dojang: Building a PROGRESSIVE Art... Dear DD, I shall step back onto my soapbox, atleast one step anyway. In the recent (last 3 or 4) DD's there has been a lot of talk about the origins of the ATA and Songahm Taekwondo. First I would like to start by trying to clear up a misconception, if I understand some of the questions and answers. Songahm Taekwondo was developed by H.U. Lee, here in the US, starting as early as the late 1970's. In 1983 H.U. Lee introduced the first of the new forms, and the last of the new forms were released to the organization in 1990. The ATA, on the other hand, as an organization is much older beginning in 1969 as a way for Lee and his chief instructors to develop a consistant, organized curriculum. The first ATA curriculum was based on the Chang Hun Forms used by the Chung Do Kwan and Oh Do Kwan (Due largely to the fact that his formal training came from the Chung Do Kwan and his first experience as an instructor came as a member of the Korean Army - who used the system introduced by Gen. Choi : Oh Do Kwan / Taekwondo.) Now to my main point, the development of a progressive art. The forms H.U.Lee developed as Songahm Taekwondo were his attempt to lay the foundation for an art that could continue to grow. While he tried, and did admirably well I think, to move back to a more traditional Korean art form, his interest was split between moving backwards and moving forwards. He later added weapons, ground fighting, joint manipulation, use of pressure points, and other minor items that are of questionable national origin. Just recently the ATA has added weapons such as the sword (any sword type - most common in use being the japanese katana) and the tri-sectional staff (whose origins are unknown to me at this time.) In addition there is talk of adding a grappling division to our competitions, and the organization has opened the doors of communications with a group of Krav Maga practitioners. As you can see the ATA is not just stagnate on the Songahm Forms, and is constantly pushing the envelope - trying to insure that history does not catch up to our art. Too many good arts have become obscure, mostly unpracticed, due to an unwillingness to let go of the battles over history and tradition. Don't let the art that you love fall prey to the same fate. Stop battling over who's art is better, and who invented what art. Instead focus on learning all you can about your own art, and the arts of others. To quote a famous Japanese Swordman and "Martialist" : "It is dangerous for a warrior to know only one thing. It will eventually create shortsightedness and limit the possibilities for additional growth." - Miyamoto Musashi (Book of Five Rings) Yours in Martial Spirit Brian ------------------------------ From: "Carsten Jorgensen" Date: Fri, 13 Jul 2001 21:04:57 +0800 Subject: the_dojang: Re: He says Hwarangdo I say Hapkido(sung to the tune of....) ? 4 Carsten Jose: >> Dear Carsten, First, I will try and look up the quote ASAP. It was in an interview in Black Belt Magazine recently. << Looking forward to you posting it :-) >> You seem to suggest, if I have understood you, that there were many systems being taught and practiced in Korea that included jointlocks, etc and which looked like Hapkido, but were not necessarily brought to Korea by Choi Young Sool. << What is Hapkido? How does Hapkido look like? I think 'Hapkido' today covers everything from pure Aikido to pure Taekwondo. Do you believe that, unlike all other countries in Asia (Japan, China, Indonesia, Burma, the Philippines etc) Korea had lost all martial arts? Are you one of those who believes that you can train Judo and still be unaware of jointlocks, or that because Korea was a Confucian country the Buddhist monks forgot their martial arts skills (and later re-learned them I guess). How about the millions of Koreans who went to Japan, none of them were ever exposed to jointlocks, the martial arts books never made it as far as Korea, and unfortunately all the Chinese who immigrated to Korea didn't know martial art... Interesting, jointlocking simply did not exist in Korea before GM Choi? Back to your question, there were not many systems from the beginning (very few actually), but those there were, were different. Just think about it, even if people were completely without previous training, when they came to GM Choi, they still learned different things from him... and some people, like GM Joo Bang Lee had extensive training before they came to GM Choi = very different styles right from the beginning. I think all basic jointlocks looks the same, just as basic kicks and punches looks the same in different styles. The difference is how you do them, when you use them etc. :-) >> You seem to suggest that practitioners came together under the umbrella as Hapkido but their art did not necessarily have a common source. Is that what you are saying? If, so, then your position would be controversial and I believe difficult to defend. << Pretty much everybody were using the generic Hapkido name together with the name of their style. And later they tried to unify the different styles, but unlike Taekwondo it didn't work because unlike Taekwondo the 'root-styles' did not have a common source. >> I noticed that you said that yes, the spinning heel kick comes from Hwarangdo whereas my Korean acquaintance who studied with GM Joo Bong Lee and Joo Sang Lee beginning in 1961 said that it came from HAPKIDO. Why do you say Hwarangdo and he says Hapkido? Are you saying that what he studied in 1961 with the Lee brothers was not Hapkido but was Hwarangdo, and he just doesn't know it? Im confused about what you are implying. << I'm not implying anything :-) Hapkido is a generic term, does your acquaintance teach martial arts BTW? Let's look at history again, There was nothing called Hapkido in the beginning, GM Choi taught Yawara. GM Ji also taught Yawara until he changed the name to Song Mu Kwan Hapkido in 1961. GM Lee taught Hwarang Do Mu Sul when he opened his first public school in 1960 (or are you saying GM Lee was using the Hapkido name before GM Ji?). I don't have a problem saying that in Korea, back in the middle 60s, Hapkido were a generic term for several very different martial arts, including Hwarang Do - as long as you know what Hapkido is. (That includes knowing that already from the beginning 'Hapkido' were (very) different styles style, that GM Lee dropped all Hapkido connections 35 years ago, and quite a few other things). I just don't like posting about it because people still don't know what Hapkido is, and the only thing they'll remember, it that they'll think I said Hwarang Do=Hapkido which I certainly didn't. Carsten Jorgensen Copenhagen, Denmark hwarangdo@email.com - -- _______________________________________________ Make PC-to-Phone calls with Net2Phone. Sign-up today at: http://www.net2phone.com/cgi-bin/link.cgi?121 ------------------------------ From: "Carsten Jorgensen" Date: Fri, 13 Jul 2001 21:06:09 +0800 Subject: the_dojang: RE: 3000 techniques Bruce: >> GM Lee states in his BLACK BELT interview that he mastered over 4,000 techniques before he was 11. << You already posted this a while back, but it's still not true. GM Lee trained under Suam Dosa until he died in 1969, which makes GM Lee more than 30. How do you get 11 years? Hey, good to be back Bruce ;-) (I'll be teaching at the European HRD Summercamp all next week, so I'll be off for a while again.) Carsten Jorgensen Copenhagen, Denmark hwarangdo@email.com - -- _______________________________________________ Make PC-to-Phone calls with Net2Phone. Sign-up today at: http://www.net2phone.com/cgi-bin/link.cgi?121 ------------------------------ From: Ray Terry Date: Fri, 13 Jul 2001 7:00:05 PDT Subject: the_dojang: Hwarangdo (will the real one please stand up) > Well, I was probably not very clear, of course there have been styleS > using the Hapkido name, including Song/Sung Mu Kwan Hapkido. My point is > that there never were and never will be ONE unified style. For the > moment people started using the name it were a generic term for many > different styles. There never were 'A' style called Hapkido. As there are multiple styles/groups using the name Hwarangdo? I can think of at least three off the top of my head. One in Oz (not affiliated with JB Lee) and then Michael De Alba's Modern HRD (an offshoot of JB Lee's) and the of course GM Lee's. So you mean in this same fashion that Hapkido was used by various groups, meaning similar but different arts? Just being a pain... :) Ray Terry raymail@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com ------------------------------ From: Ray Terry Date: Fri, 13 Jul 2001 7:05:59 PDT Subject: Re: the_dojang: Re: He says Hwarangdo I say Hapkido(sung to the tune > What is Hapkido? The Way of Coordinated Power. > How does Hapkido look like? Just picture HwaRangDo... :) Ray Terry raymail@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com ------------------------------ From: "phil" Date: Fri, 13 Jul 2001 10:00:09 -0400 Subject: the_dojang: Ancient Korean Martial art This was taken from a book that was recently translated and released, the writings are over 200 years old. "Muye Dobo Tongji" translated by Sang H. Kim [This book is an ancient Korean martial arts manual, written by Yi Duk-moo, [Park Je-ga and Pak Dong-soo in 1790, under the order of King Jungjo. This [premiere English translation of the manual is the result of nearly a decade of [planning and work. [According to historic documents, archery was the only official martial art that [had been practiced by the soldiers of Chosun (ancient name of Korea used [during the Yi Dynasty, 1392-1910) This is a great book filled with tons of tid-bits of info. Phil ------------------------------ From: "Sawyer, Mark D., M.D." Date: Fri, 13 Jul 2001 09:08:26 -0500 Subject: the_dojang: Songham A few comments on Songham... Can it truly be said that Songham is a purely Korean martial art? With Korea's location, it would be foolish to think that there were no influences from neighboring China, Japan, etc over the course of a few thousand years. The martial arts developed in part from influences passed between various cultures of the region, and war and conflict certainly brought them into proximity. :-) Don't get me wrong, I think that HU Lee did make an outstanding effort to distill TKD from the more ancient martial artforms and philosophies of Korea, but like any other, it's not a "pure" martial art free of influence from other influence. Having said that, I did enjoy the care and thought that appear to have gone into designing the Songham forms. Regarding learning materials, I was told by my Songham instructor that the books would be available to me only as I progressed, i.e., orange belt book and VHS tape once I passed white belt testing, etc. As Songham is a private organization, the materials are not generally available, i.e. at amazon.com or other such places. While I understand the philosophy of this, it's not how I like to learn or function. It is more traditional in that control of the knowledge is centralized, and the emphasis is on a teacher-apprentice relationship. Personally, I like to read as much as I can and see what's coming. To me, the discussion of who founded what, what style, etc. is very informative. It's also part of the essence of Tae Kwon Do. An important element of the martial arts (especially TKD - doesn't the WTF officially state this?) is that a part of the art is the active striving to improve and change, as opposed to just passing it down as it currently exists. My Songham instructor has asked me to continue, which I may possibly do in addition to WTF for my own interest and enjoyment of the forms and camaraderie. But philosophically my primary style will probably be WTF, at least for now. Why? Basically it boils down to a few things: 1. Olympics. My kids should have no trouble finding a dojang teaching the style wherever they go, since it's an Olympic sport. 2. Availability of materials - publicly available resources are a good thing in my book. 3. Classes. The WTF instructor is an 8th dan, and started out by giving my a few private lessons before moving me into a class. 4. Convenience. OK, not very pure here, but I went from one class/week that I had to drive 25 miles to get to vs. about 8 possible classes/week that I can attend, as many as I want. OK, kinda long winded there, sorry about that. // mds ------------------------------ From: Ray Terry Date: Fri, 13 Jul 2001 7:50:36 PDT Subject: the_dojang: knife video Just a heads-up... I just watched a (new to me) video on knife fighting. Free Style Knife Fighting, featuring Brazil's Antonio Favio Testa. The box states 'after nearly 30 years of learning and practising both of Brazil Jungle and Cangaceiro Knife Fighting systems, Testa has put together both styles to form his own unique system of knife fighting'. Cangaciero seems to be defined on the video as desert knife fighting. ?? In short, don't waste your $$. Poor production, seemed to be filmed in the back of a weightlifting gym with weights clanging in the background, difficult at times to even hear the speaker. Not much in the way of real material. The box claims 'Approx. 30 min'. It is 20 mins at most, minus the tape's head and tail. I did see one somewhat interesting three man drill (2 on 1) that I might use (all the drills were three man drills), but in general a poor video. Available at Amazon.com, but IMHO save your $$. Ray Terry raymail@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com ------------------------------ From: Ray Terry Date: Fri, 13 Jul 2001 7:52:26 PDT Subject: the_dojang: . ------------------------------ End of The_Dojang-Digest V8 #403 ******************************** It's a great day for Taekwondo! Support the USTU by joining today. US Taekwondo Union, 1 Olympic Plaza, Ste 104C, Colorado Spgs, CO 80909 719-578-4632 FAX 719-578-4642 ustutkd1@aol.com http://www.ustu.org To unsubscribe from the_dojang-digest send the command: unsubscribe the_dojang-digest -or- unsubscribe the_dojang-digest your.old@address in the BODY (top line, left justified) of a "plain text" e-mail addressed to majordomo@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com. Old digest issues are available via ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com. Copyright 1994-2001: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource Standard disclaimers apply.