From: the_dojang-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com To: the_dojang-digest@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Subject: The_Dojang-Digest V8 #404 Reply-To: the_dojang@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Errors-To: the_dojang-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Precedence: The_Dojang-Digest Fri, 13 July 2001 Vol 08 : Num 404 In this issue: the_dojang: Re: Master Choi, Jung Hwa the_dojang: GM Lee and training... the_dojang: RE: The_Dojang-Digest V8 #401 the_dojang: ATA Korea the_dojang: RE: In search of Eleven year olds the_dojang: A few thoughts about "Heart" the_dojang: ksw the_dojang: KSW the_dojang: Re: The_Dojang-Digest V8 #398 the_dojang: player the_dojang: Re: The_Dojang-Digest V8 #402 the_dojang: . ========================================================================= The_Dojang, serving the Internet since June 1994. ~1111 members strong! Copyright 1994-2001: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource The premier internet discussion forum devoted to the Korean Martial Arts. Replying to this message will NOT unsubscribe you. To unsubscribe, send "unsubscribe the_dojang-digest" (no quotes) in the body (top line, left justified) of a "plain text" e-mail addressed to majordomo@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com. To send e-mail to this list use the_dojang@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com See the Korean Martial Arts (KMA) FAQ and the online search engine for back issues of The_Dojang at http://www.MartialArtsResource.com Pil Seung! ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Melissa Lambton" Date: Fri, 13 Jul 2001 15:41:10 +0100 Subject: the_dojang: Re: Master Choi, Jung Hwa I have heard that Master Choi, Jung Hwa will be taking over the reins of the ITF when General Choi, Hong Hi steps down. I was wondering what the views of The Listers were on this subject. Do you believe that it should stay in the Choi family, or would a higher ranking member such as Grandmaster Ree, Ki Hah have been considered? Taekwon. Melissa (1st degree ITF TKD) ------------------------------ From: J Thomas Howard Date: Fri, 13 Jul 2001 10:29:28 -0500 (CDT) Subject: the_dojang: GM Lee and training... > From: "Carsten Jorgensen" > > Bruce: > >> GM Lee states in his BLACK BELT interview that he mastered over > >>4,000 techniques before he was 11. > > You already posted this a while back, but it's still not true. GM Lee > trained under Suam Dosa until he died in 1969, which makes GM Lee more > than 30. > How do you get 11 years? Now that Carsten is back again, I thought I'd repost this again, since I didn't get a response the last two times. Repost: - ------------------------------ I threw this one out a little while ago, but thought I'd ask it again, with a little more explanation (especially since no one answered :) --- Other than GM Lee and his brother, is there anyone else who met Suahm Dosa? Anyone else see his techniques, his training style, any other students/partners/peers? Anyone outside of the Lee's family know him? Any record of a Suahm Dosa that anyone knows of---_outside_ of what the Hwarangdo association says? Carsten? Anyone? I'm curious for a number of reasons---among them, primarily because I am fairly dubious about the "direct connection" between the curent day Hwarangdo association and the empty hand arts of the Hwarang era. This doesn't mean anything directly, I'm dubious about a lot of things with regards to a lot of different types of martial history. However, lately there just seems to be a lot of talk (outside the_dojang, though we've had our share here too, lately) about how the curent association is indeed related directly to something that existed generations back, and it strikes me as interesting, since even five years ago I didn't recall hearing much of anything like that. So, just curious: is there any evidence of a Suahm Dosa who was a martial artist, or do we only have stories told by the current Hwarangdo association and such? Again, not an attack---just curious. Thomas - ------------------------------------ thomcat@binary.net http://www.binary.net/thomcat/ "If you aren't modeling what you are teaching then you are teaching something else." ------------------------------ From: "Michael Rowe (outlook)" Date: Fri, 13 Jul 2001 10:34:04 -0500 Subject: the_dojang: RE: The_Dojang-Digest V8 #401 <> I never really had a post on this topic, beyond my whatever comment. But when Kwanjang Whalen posted the following: <> It brought the spector of a topic that we have talked about on this list before again and again and again. <> I have no questions or doubts about Kwanjang Whalen's abilities or dedication. I just tire of the bitterness. I tire of people's bitterness or attitude towards Kwanjang Pellegrini. I tire of the issue of what is and what isn't Hapkido, I'm just tired. So Whatever! I'll just teach and be the best that I can be and all that don't like it can just be as well. <> Thank you. I have been developing it for a while now. I have studied several martial arts in my life: Taekwondo (5th Dan), Judo (1st Dan), Hapkido[Traditional and Combat] (3rd Dan/4th Dan), Pang Gain Noon Ryu Karate-Do (1st Dan),Okinawan Kobudo (1st Dan), Modern Arnis (no formal ranking), Jeet Kune Do (No formal Ranking). Every Style had its strong points and weak points. Many of them had very common strong overlapping points. Some had compatible concepts, some had points of veiw in conflict with each other. I have incorporated much of what I have learned into a curriculum that I teach that brings a sense of unity to what I have learned . Also because the spiritual principles that I teach come from the teachings of Charles Fillmore and the Unity Church that I attend it also made sense to name my dojang the Gym of Unity. After many discussions with those that Speak Korean I formally named it the Dan Il Kwan. Michael Rowe Dan Il Kwan - Gym of Unity Unity Church of Omaha 3424 N 90th Street Omaha, Nebraska 68134 ------------------------------ From: "CA&B Skjold" Date: Fri, 13 Jul 2001 10:48:55 -0500 Subject: the_dojang: ATA Korea From what I understand from my Master, No you cannot obtain KKW rank via the ATA. From: Ray Terry Date: Thu, 12 Jul 2001 17:03:25 PDT Subject: the_dojang: ATA in Korea ? I guess we can beat on the ATA guyz for awhile since the Haidong folks were pushovers... :) The ATA has schools in S. Korea? Anyone know if they teach the Protech program in those schools? (just curious) Can you obtain Kukkiwon rank via the ATA? If so, are the Taegeuk (or Palgwe) forms also taught in the ATA? (Given those forms are a requirement for Kukkiwon Dan rank.) BTW, I've heard very good things about the ATA's forms. Some instructors that left the ATA, for a wide variety of reasons, stayed with the ATA forms (yes, even tho they were not supposed to). Ray Terry raymail@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com ------------------------------ From: Bruce.Sims@med.va.gov Date: Fri, 13 Jul 2001 11:01:06 -0500 Subject: the_dojang: RE: In search of Eleven year olds Dear Carsten: "...How do you get 11 years?..." This is one of the big pains about trying to cite reference material when I don't have it handy. The number of years I mentioned was a result of using some simple math on the various dates and time-spans that GM Lee mentioned in his interview. Please accept my apology that I am not able to cite the exact quotes without the BLACK BELT (Oct, Nov, Dec) magazine issues here. You know, though, even at the age of, say, 30, mastering 4,000 techniques isn't something I have found anyone demonstrating. The inference usually seems to be that so&so is the head of an art which purports to have such&such attribute-- Ergo: so&so has such&such attribute. Even adding all of the techniques in GM Lees' 3-volume set together does not produce anywhere near 3000 or 4000 techniques. BTW: Is there an operational definition for "Hwa Rang Do" after the manner of what you were asking for with Hapkido? I think that it would probably help a lot of people if we could bump two such definitions up against each other. I would even be willing to republish my submission from last year along with the reference material if Ray doesn't mind the bandwidth. Great having you back. Best Wishes, Bruce ------------------------------ From: "Craig Stovall" Date: Fri, 13 Jul 2001 11:09:07 -0500 Subject: the_dojang: A few thoughts about "Heart" Rudy responded to the lists on Self-Defense, <> Boy...I dunno. I really have mixed emotions about that idea. While I won't come right out and say that it's "wrong" to think this way, I will offer that it's a very deep issue, and one that's dependent upon multiple factors. One of my problems with "heart" is that it's one of those ephimeral concepts that's really hard to define. Like me, you probably know it when you see it, but it's difficult to give it justice with mere words. Fighting spirit...never quit...never say die...I guess these are all descriptive of what it means to have "heart". Whenever I hear the term "heart" the first thing that pops into my mind is the numerous times I've seen some outclassed boxer in the ring with someone they have no business competing against. By the end of 10 rounds, both eyes are almost closed and they've been knocked to the canvas a half-a-dozen times...but for some reason they just won't quit. Round after round, they keep getting off of that stool only to get their face pounded for their trouble. Meanwhile, the commentators give the bloody fighter as much credit as they can muster..."Boy, you gotta give him credit for having a lot of heart...he sure is game". To be sure, there are those among our number that approach life with this same type of dogged determination in every single thing they do. They never consider the "option" of quitting...it's just not part of their software. Doesn't matter if it's a game of checkers or a back alley brawl...they just have "something to prove", and won't give up even when faced with insurmountable odds. Our society tends to admire this type of obsessive personality, and rewards it with accolades of being a "hard worker" and "true warrior". I'm not so certain. To me it boils down to motivation. The vast majority of us do not possess this type of obsessive "never say die" personality, and tend to take our wins (and losses) in stride. We won't continue to grapple on the mat with a strained back, or keep running that marathon with a pulled groin, or continue boxing with a shut eye and broken hand. For us, the emotional pain associated with "having to give up" is not sufficient to override the physical pain (and long-term damage) as a result of "gutting it out". We don't get caught up in the moment and allow the present microcosm of experience to become the defining moment of our perceived self-worth. However, we're not talking about sportive endeavors...we're talking about self-defense. And in this context (at least for me), the concept of "heart" is a non-issue. Again, we have to explore our motivations. I've come to the belief that what makes us strong is NOT what we fight WITH, but what we fight FOR. Let's take a simple example that a good many of us could relate to...protecting our children. If faced with the nightmare scenario of being the only thing standing between your kids and an ax-wielding murderer, what would you do? The same thing that me, Ray, or Meghan, or anybody else on this list would do...you would fight until dead or broken. Literally fight until the job was done, or else every bone in your body was smashed to pulp. Forget about pain and fatigue...they're non-issues at that point. Now, some people may refer to this as "heart", fighting spirit, or indomitable will. I call it, "Just doing what anybody else would do in that case". Here's my theory. Ask yourself what you're willing to fight to the death for...your life, your kids, your property, your freedom, your right to not be taxed without representation? When you answer that question, then you'll find your "heart". You see...I believe we all have this thing that we call "heart". For me, to protect my kids, I won't quit no matter what the pain or what's been broken. There's where you'll find Craig's "heart". That boxer that wouldn't give up...his "heart" resided in the belief that giving up was a thousand times worse than having his face beaten into a bloody mask. That's where you'll find his "heart" (or else he's one of those obsessive types). Here's something I've been told since day one..."Martial arts builds character/fighting spirit/indomitable spirit". You want to know something my friends...I don't believe that for one second. Martial arts doesn't build these things...rather, it provides an opportunity to REVEAL THEM. They're already there inside of us...the sticking point is when will they reveal themselves? That's a question that I can only answer for myself, and one that can only be found through a process of self-discovery (read; getting out there and doing it). So, for me (and I can only relate MY experience) I'm not so concerned about "heart" being a factor if I am faced with having to protect myself. I know that I have a wife and children that love me and depend upon me on many different levels. I know that because of that...I have a limitless supply of "heart" on tap and ready to go. My concern is what do I have to go along with that "heart"? Do I have a toolbox deep enough that will allow me to prevail without having to find out just how deep that pool of "heart" goes? Do I have the good sense (and ability) to just run away? Or will I have to be like that wounded boxer...outclassed and unprepared? Having to fight with nothing but guts, will, and instinct between myself and defeat. No, I don't want that, and so I stand by my supposition (and not just within the confines of this particular discussion) that our physical skills are of paramount importance. "Heart", much like the love that a mother shows for her child, is a beautiful thing to behold. But, also like that love, is one so commonplace that we tend not to recognize it in our day-to-day lives. "Heart" is already there inside of us...it's there. Thanks for bringing this up...it prompted me to explore some areas that I haven't thought about in awhile. I'm going to think about them some more... Craig Stovall _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com ------------------------------ From: "teepee" Date: Fri, 13 Jul 2001 10:50:13 -0600 Subject: the_dojang: ksw Hi! Sorry it has taken me so long to reply, but I have been out of town. Before I attempt to answer all of the posts in regards to my original posting re: origins of ksw and differences in US vs Canadian systems, I first want to apologize to any that I may have inadvertantly offended. Secondly, the main focus of my original posting was not in the apparent 'watering down' of the US system, but rather on the seemingly frequent claims of system creation that have occured in Korean arts over the past 40 odd years. In any case an attempt at answering some of the questions that have been directed towards me: 1) I have no knowledge of Ship Pal Gi with respect to connections with KSW per se. As far as I understand, there is no clear connection. 2) The grandmaster of our system of KSW is named Sun. I don't know his 'first' name. I have never bothered to ask what it is. I don't think I will ever make it to Korea, so I have never bothered learning it. He is based just outside of Seoul. Because of the excellent job that In Sun has done in trademarking KSW, our grandmaster had to find another venue in order to be able to certify his students. I am told that this venue came in the form of a Buddhist martial arts school/group/system that did not have a grandmaster at the time and made him their GM (I am told because of a number of similarities between the arts, including the buddhist art have Bek Pal gi hyung in its curriculum, amongst other things). As a side note, it turns out because of this, members of our system that make it to black belt are also considered black belts in the buddhist system... go figure. 3) Our grandmaster has never claimed to be the creator of Kuk Sool. Nor has he ever claimed to have mastered 31 different arts. 4) Our master, whose name is Park (again, I've never bothered to find out his first name) is based in Toronto. 5) As far as this 'watered down' issue goes, I base this claim on three sources: a) personal observation. Over the past 10 years three different groups of students from the US system have come to our class in Calgary, one from somewhere in California, one from somewhere in Texas, and one from somewhere in eastern Canada. They all had different colored belts ranging from yellow to 'brown'. The 'watered down' aspect was consistent in all 3 groups and consisted of two major aspects. Stances movements(especially in the patterns) which was always too high and too evenly weighted in both legs/ and was too rigid and did not have the body supported properly in the movement. This was as I said consistent in all three groups. The other aspect was in the ho shin sul. I have to say, I don't really consider this aspect a 'watering down' but it is different from our group. From what I saw, the hand techniques focussed more on using the joint lock solely to get the opponent to the desired end-position, rather than using the lock in combination with maintaining tension in the opponents body to keep them off balance, and using body support to generate the movement. 2) Observations of other students, including our instructor who have visited other schools in the US. Their conclusions of the patterns pretty much reflect mine. 3) Magazine articles. I take the least stock in this one, but in practically every picture I have examined, the stances are just too darn high, and it does not appear that the body is supporting the movements. But again, it is hard to tell anything useful from a static picture. 6) Dahn Mu Do? If this is the same Lee as I think it is, he was apparently a former student of Park's in Ontario, who was ORIGINALLY taught in the US system. As I understand it, he taught KSW in Barrie, under Park's banner for a few years until (as always seems to happen in Korean arts) had a disagreement with Park and decided to 'create' his own art, which, as I am told is some bastardized combination of the US and Candian versions. Don't quote me on this though, it may not be the same person, and the story I have heard about the Lee I am talking about is hearsay anyways. I hope this answered some of the questions, and doesn't create a giant flame attack on me. These are my own personal observations/conclusions over the past 10 years, and don't mean anything to anyone but myself. Thanks for the space, Terry ------------------------------ From: "ISA CONSULTATION GROUP" Date: Fri, 13 Jul 2001 14:48:52 -0400 Subject: the_dojang: KSW I am looking at a newspaper article, front page mind you, about a testing at a local KSW school here in Florence, SC USA. It was attended by a Master Lee, Jong Sik and Grand Master Suh, In Nyak (that's how they spelled it). It happened last night I guess or last thursday. The picture they chose to use was a 5x7 of someone's foot glancing off three boards held by two individuals. It looked like he missed the boards and hit the fingers of the hand holding the bottom on one side. I really got tickled when I saw this as it brought back many memories of my swollen fingers after a promotional test. I noticed that the boards were being held with the grain running vertically instead of horizontally. Have any of you board breakers noticed a difference with grain alignment as far as ease of breaking is concerned? The second picture shows the discipline of KSW as the young students are sitting in respect as Master Lee, Jong Sik plays a flute dressed in traditional formal wear. Respectfully, george petrotta FREE ISA MEMBERSHIP http://taekwondo.4dw.com/ http://hapkido.4dw.com/ http://gpetrott.webjump.com/index.html ISA CONSULTATION GROUP includes ISA Martial Arts, ISA Web Design and ISA Consulting Services! _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com ------------------------------ From: Chereecharmello@aol.com Date: Fri, 13 Jul 2001 15:42:50 EDT Subject: the_dojang: Re: The_Dojang-Digest V8 #398 << It is unfortunate, however, that the individual in question mostly likely retains their rank and title. Once again it doesn't appear that there are any consequences to poor behavior. >> Mr. Lasich- The ITF has actually removed instructors who acted less than professionally/ethically, which is one of the many reason I remain here. They seem to take the necessary steps to protect their students. I have never heard of a BB being kicked out of the organization for stupidity, however, I have heard of a few cases of temporary demotion as insult... - -Cheree ------------------------------ From: Ray Terry Date: Fri, 13 Jul 2001 13:17:41 PDT Subject: the_dojang: player Perhaps of interest in light a recent thread on how things are often translated from one language into another... Forwarded message: People in other countries sometimes go out of their way to communicate with their English-speaking tourists. Cocktail lounge, Norway: LADIES ARE REQUESTED NOT TO HAVE CHILDREN IN THE BAR. Doctors office, Rome: SPECIALIST IN WOMEN AND OTHER DISEASES. Hotel, Acapulco: THE MANAGER HAS PERSONALLY PASSED ALL THE WATER SERVED HERE Information booklet about using a hotel air conditioner, Japan: COOLES AND HEATES: IF YOU WANT JUST CONDITION OF WARM AIR IN YOUR ROOM, PLEASE CONTROL YOURSELF. Car rental brochure, Tokyo: WHEN PASSENGER OF FOOT HEAVE IN SIGHT, TOOTLE THE HORN. TRUMPET HIM MELODIOUSLY AT FIRST, BUT IF HE STILL OBSTACLES YOUR PASSAGE THEN TOOTLE HIM WITH VIGOR Dry cleaner's, Bangkok: DROP YOUR TROUSERS HERE FOR THE BEST RESULTS Sign in men's rest room in Japan: TO STOP LEAK TURN COCK TO THE RIGHT In a Nairobi restaurant: CUSTOMERS WHO FIND OUR WAITRESSES RUDE OUGHT TO SEE THE MANAGER. On a poster at Kencom: ARE YOU AN ADULT THAT CANNOT READ? IF SO, WE CAN HELP. In a City restaurant: OPEN SEVEN DAYS A WEEK AND WEEKENDS One of the Mathare buildings: MENTAL HEALTH PREVENTION CENTRE. A sign seen on an automatic restroom hand dryer: DO NOT ACTIVATE WITH WET HANDS In a Pumwani maternity ward: NO CHILDREN ALLOWED. In a cemetery PERSONS ARE PROHIBITED FROM PICKING FLOWERS FROM ANY BUT THEIR OWN GRAVES Sign in Japanese public bath: FOREIGN GUESTS ARE REQUESTED NOT TO PULL COCK IN TUB. Tokyo hotel's rules and regulations: GUESTS ARE REQUESTED NOT TO SMOKE OR DO OTHER DISGUSTING BEHAVIOURS IN BED. Hotel notice, Tokyo: IS FORBIDDEN TO STEAL HOTEL TOWELS PLEASE. IF YOU ARE NOT A PERSON TO DO SUCH A THING IS PLEASE NOT TO HAD NOTIS On the menu of a Swiss restaurant: OUR WINES LEAVE YOU NOTHING TO HOPE FOR. In a Tokyo bar: SPECIAL COCKTAILS FOR THE LADIES WITH NUTS In a Bangkok temple: IT IS FORBIDDEN TO ENTER A WOMAN EVEN A FOREIGNER IF DRESSED AS A MAN Hotel room notice, Chiang-Mai, Thailand: PLEASE DO NOT BRING SOLICITORS INTO YOUR ROOM Hotel brochure, Italy: THIS HOTEL IS RENOWNED FOR ITS PEACE AND SOLITUDE. IN FACT, CROWDS FROM ALL OVER THE WORLD FLOCK HERE TO ENJOY ITS SOLITUDE Hotel lobby, Bucharest: THE LIFT IS BEING FIXED FOR THE NEXT DAY. DURING THAT TIME WE REGRET THAT YOU WILL BE UNBEARABLE. Hotel elevator, Paris: PLEASE LEAVE YOUR VALUES AT THE FRONT DESK Hotel, Yugoslavia: THE FLATTENING OF UNDERWEAR WITH PLEASURE IS THE JOB OF THE CHAMBERMAID Hotel, Japan: YOU ARE INVITED TO TAKE ADVANTAGE OF THE CHAMBERMAID. In the lobby of a Moscow hotel across from a Russian Orthodox monastery: YOU ARE WELCOME TO VISIT THE CEMETERY WHERE FAMOUS RUSSIAN AND SOVIET COMPOSERS, ARTISTS, AND WRITERS ARE BURIED DAILY EXCEPT THURSDAY. Hotel catering to skiers, Austria: NOT TO PERAMBULATE THE CORRIDORS IN THE HOURS OF REPOSE IN THE BOOTS OF ASCENSION. Taken from a menu, Poland: SALAD A FIRM'S OWN MAKE; LIMPID RED BEET SOUP WITH CHEESY DUMPLINGS IN THE FORM OF A FINGER; ROASTED DUCK LET LOOSE; BEEF RASHERS BEATEN IN THE COUNTRY PEOPLE'S FASHION Supermarket, Hong Kong: FOR YOUR CONVENIENCE, WE RECOMMEND COURTEOUS, EFFICIENT SELF-SERVICE And a repost. Taken from the "Notice of Treatment" tag that used to come with all Adidas TKD shoes. *Notice of Treatment 1. Do not water wash products by the natural cow leather. 2. Wash the leather of split made with the brush and use protecking oil leather. 3. Do not use chlorine bleach. 4. Avoid flammables or direct rays of the sun when dry. 5. Do not put on shoes with folded. 6. Please do use when dried perfectly. ------------------------------ From: Chereecharmello@aol.com Date: Fri, 13 Jul 2001 16:02:05 EDT Subject: the_dojang: Re: The_Dojang-Digest V8 #402 << I think the term "player" comes from the Korean word "sun-soo". Koreans use this word for someone who is serious about whatever it is they they do be it a sport or a martial art. If you are called a "player", it is indeed a compliment. Ryan>> I thought "sun-soo" referred to a double-fisted/handed block? ------------------------------ From: Ray Terry Date: Fri, 13 Jul 2001 13:46:18 PDT Subject: the_dojang: . ------------------------------ End of The_Dojang-Digest V8 #404 ******************************** It's a great day for Taekwondo! Support the USTU by joining today. US Taekwondo Union, 1 Olympic Plaza, Ste 104C, Colorado Spgs, CO 80909 719-578-4632 FAX 719-578-4642 ustutkd1@aol.com http://www.ustu.org To unsubscribe from the_dojang-digest send the command: unsubscribe the_dojang-digest -or- unsubscribe the_dojang-digest your.old@address in the BODY (top line, left justified) of a "plain text" e-mail addressed to majordomo@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com. Old digest issues are available via ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com. Copyright 1994-2001: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource Standard disclaimers apply.