From: the_dojang-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com To: the_dojang-digest@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Subject: The_Dojang-Digest V8 #408 Reply-To: the_dojang@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Errors-To: the_dojang-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Precedence: The_Dojang-Digest Sat, 14 July 2001 Vol 08 : Num 408 In this issue: the_dojang: Re: He says Hwarangdo I say Hapkido(sung to the tune the_dojang: Re: Thanks Carsten the_dojang: Re: Hapkido = Hwarang-Do ??? the_dojang: Re: GM Lee and training... (aka Suahm Dosa thread) Re: the_dojang: RE: Spinning Heel kick the_dojang: RE: In search of Eleven year olds Re: the_dojang: Re: Hwarangdo (will the real one please stand up) the_dojang: small circles the_dojang: RE: The_Dojang-Digest V8 #407 the_dojang: Re: interviews Re: the_dojang: Re: Hapkido = Hwarang-Do ??? the_dojang: Hapkido Hoshinsul Re: the_dojang: Re: interviews Re: the_dojang: Re: Thanks Carsten the_dojang: . ========================================================================= The_Dojang, serving the Internet since June 1994. ~1111 members strong! Copyright 1994-2001: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource The premier internet discussion forum devoted to the Korean Martial Arts. Replying to this message will NOT unsubscribe you. To unsubscribe, send "unsubscribe the_dojang-digest" (no quotes) in the body (top line, left justified) of a "plain text" e-mail addressed to majordomo@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com. To send e-mail to this list use the_dojang@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com See the Korean Martial Arts (KMA) FAQ and the online search engine for back issues of The_Dojang at http://www.MartialArtsResource.com Pil Seung! ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Carsten Jorgensen" Date: Sun, 15 Jul 2001 03:20:17 +0800 Subject: the_dojang: Re: He says Hwarangdo I say Hapkido(sung to the tune Me: > What is Hapkido? Ray: >> The Way of Coordinated Power. << OK, so GM Ji's WoCP is the same WoCP as the master who only teaches 6 jointlocks until black belt, and the master who almost teaches Aikido? The definition of Hapkido is "if you use the name it's the style?" > How does Hapkido look like? >>Just picture HwaRangDo... << OK, I'm picturing 9 unarmed and 3 weapons forms before blackbelt, small circles, punching combinations using long-and short handtechniques, groundfighting, acupuncture, acupressure..., what are you picturing? Carsten Jorgensen Copenhagen, Denmark hwarangdo@email.com - -- _______________________________________________ Make PC-to-Phone calls with Net2Phone. Sign-up today at: http://www.net2phone.com/cgi-bin/link.cgi?121 ------------------------------ From: "Carsten Jorgensen" Date: Sun, 15 Jul 2001 03:23:01 +0800 Subject: the_dojang: Re: Thanks Carsten Jose: >> If I understand your view, it is that there were a variety of martial arts taught in Korea, some of which did not originate with and even preceded the introduction of Yawara to Korea by Choi Young Sool, but which were generally and loosely referred to as Hapkido. << Sure, but I would say handful instead of variety, these styles also had influence from GM Choi, some more than others. but there were very few styles in the beginning. Also, originally they all used other names than Hapkido for their styles (GM Choi called his style Yawara, GM Suh said Yu Kwon Sul etc, later from around 1961 Hapkido were a generic name used by almost all of them. Some, like GM Lee, used it together with his original Hwarang Do name. And after 1969 it was primarily GM Ji, and of course all his students, who spread the name Hapkido. >> These systems had techniques similar to what we now know as Hapkido (i.e., they looked like "Hapkido"). << Again, this is why I always ask what Hapkido is. Some people say Hapkido and think big circles, some think small circles, some think forms, some think no forms. There is not (and never were) something that 'looks like Hapkido'. Of course some styles are older than others and some newer styles are just pale reflections of the old styles, but that's not what I'm talking about. Hwarang Do was Hwarang Do, Song Mu Kwan was Song Mu Kwan, even if you use the generic Hapkido about both of them. >> This is a clear and plausible position. I do not think that most historians of Korean martial arts would agree, but perhaps the situation is not as clear as I had thought. I look forward to reading and listening more which will either strengthen or change my view. << Well thank you ;-) The situation is just as clear as Taekwondo history, you just have to know the whole picture. BTW, it would be interesting (for me at least) if you asked you acquaintance about the early training with GM Joo Bang Lee and GM Joo Sang Lee. I always like talking with the old students. Carsten Jorgensen Copenhagen, Denmark hwarangdo@email.com - -- _______________________________________________ Make PC-to-Phone calls with Net2Phone. Sign-up today at: http://www.net2phone.com/cgi-bin/link.cgi?121 ------------------------------ From: "Carsten Jorgensen" Date: Sun, 15 Jul 2001 03:25:26 +0800 Subject: the_dojang: Re: Hapkido = Hwarang-Do ??? Craig: >> I've kinda been following some of the Hapkido/Hwarang-Do conversations that have been flying about as of late. Hard enough for me to understand what's being said as it seems that those engaged in the actual discussion are having a difficult time getting on the same page << Yeah, guess it doesn't make it easier to follow that we've been over this a few times before, so sometimes it gets a little 'insidish' >> From what I can gather...some people on one side of this "argument" hold the position that Hwarang-Do is actually modified Hapkido with a trumped up lineage to make it appear as if it is descended from some antiquated martial tradition? << I'll say it like this: people started using the Hapkido name in 1961, GM Lee opened his first school already in 1960, was that Hapkido – how could it? Then, until 1968 (~7 years) the generic Hapkido term were sometimes used to describe GM Lee's Hwarang Do style (was that Hapkido, or a generic term, talking about the Hwarang Do style?). In 1968 (~33 years ago) GM Lee dropped all ranks, including his 8th dan, and all connections to Hapkido and has NEVER been involved with 'Hapkido' since. Does Hwarang Do = Hapkido? Actually I think the next discussion should be from the other side of the "argument". Is it plausible that all techniques in the Korean martial arts were pretty much created by one man in a couple of years through divine inspiration? And I’m not talking about GM Choi. Carsten Jorgensen Copenhagen, Denmark hwarangdo@email.com - -- _______________________________________________ Make PC-to-Phone calls with Net2Phone. Sign-up today at: http://www.net2phone.com/cgi-bin/link.cgi?121 ------------------------------ From: "Carsten Jorgensen" Date: Sun, 15 Jul 2001 03:29:43 +0800 Subject: the_dojang: Re: GM Lee and training... (aka Suahm Dosa thread) >> Now that Carsten is back again, I thought I'd repost this again, since I didn't get a response the last two times. << I know it doesn't do any good now, but I actually did write a reply, I just never had time to post. Anyway, finally : >> Other than GM Lee and his brother, is there anyone else who met Suahm Dosa? Anyone else see his techniques, his training style, any other students/partners/peers? << No, he was so secret that he was actually invincible ;-) But seriously, there's really nothing strange about it. Suam Dosa was famous and a lot of people wanted him to teach them, but he always refused. GM Lee's father was a personal friend of the monk (I'm guessing it probably also helped that he owned the mountain where the monk lived). Suam Dosa always said that GM Lee and his brother were his only students, but as GM Lee says, there's no way of knowing if there were anyone before them. They all lived in present North Korean though, so I don't know how you'd find anybody that remembers him? Last time I was in LA I asked if there was any pictures of Suam Dosa (I've always found it interesting that it's usually one of the first questions people ask. As if, if GM Lee had 'made up' the monk, he couldn't find any old picture of a monk and claim it was Suam Dosa...). The answer was that Suam Dosa didn't like his picture taken so he didn't have any pictures. But that since Suam Dosa travelled together with the entire Lee family when they escaped to the south, someone else in the family might actually have pictures, he'd ask around. >> it strikes me as interesting, since even five years ago I didn't recall hearing much of anything like that. << The oldest mention I've seen of Hwarang Do (a Korean newspaper article from 1968) mentions Suam Doas as GM Lee's primary teacher. This is nothing new. >> So, just curious: is there any evidence of a Suahm Dosa who was a martial artist, or do we only have stories told by the current Hwarangdo association and such? << The only connection between the Hwarang and unarmed martial arts is through the World HRD Association. Is the history important – I think so, but then I'm interested in history. I didn't start training because of the history though, and I wouldn't be interested if Hwarang Do was 'fighting on horseback in armour with spears' or whatever. I started training because I thought the forms are beautiful and the techniques effective. The test if Hwarang Do is a good or a bad martial art is on the mat (or wherever you might need it). Carsten Jorgensen Copenhagen, Denmark hwarangdo@email.com - -- _______________________________________________ Make PC-to-Phone calls with Net2Phone. Sign-up today at: http://www.net2phone.com/cgi-bin/link.cgi?121 ------------------------------ From: Ray Terry Date: Sat, 14 Jul 2001 13:02:28 PDT Subject: Re: the_dojang: RE: Spinning Heel kick > Anyway, I've been very busy so I've missed a lot of the posts, could you > post your definition of Hapkido again? The Way of Coordinated Power. Ray Terry raymail@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com ------------------------------ From: "Carsten Jorgensen" Date: Sun, 15 Jul 2001 03:33:22 +0800 Subject: the_dojang: RE: In search of Eleven year olds "...How do you get 11 years?..." >> This is one of the big pains about trying to cite reference material when I don't have it handy. The number of years I mentioned was a result of using some simple math on the various dates and time-spans that GM Lee mentioned in his interview. Please accept my apology that I am not able to cite the exact quotes without the BLACK BELT (Oct, Nov, Dec) magazine issues here. << Well, all the articles are online at Hwarangdo.com, actually they are right here: Part I: Black Belt Magazine September, 2000 http://www.hwarangdo.com/Magazines/blackbelt9-00.htm Part II: Black Belt Magazine October, 2000 http://www.hwarangdo.com/Magazines/blackbelt10-00.htm Part III: Black Belt Magazine November, 2000 Black Belt Magazine November, 2000 I'm looking forward to seeing your math at work. >> Even adding all of the techniques in GM Lees' 3-volume set together does not produce anywhere near 3000 or 4000 techniques. << I don't know if I already posted on this, or if it was one of the posts I never got around to post, anyway. GM Lee's books are in no way comprehensive, complete or any thing like that. They simply show a few of the techniques from the sets of techniques, almost entirely below 1st dan. There are no techniques above 3th dan in the books. I would say that, with the techniques I've seen, that there are at least 4000 techniques in Hwarang Do (a lot of them are pressurepoints and defence against the other techniques of course). A year ago I would have had to leave it at that, and then I would have to post the exact same six months later. Now the videos are out and anybody can see for themselves. >> BTW: Is there an operational definition for "Hwa Rang Do" after the manner of what you were asking for with Hapkido? << I don't know, if there is it's probably somewhere on the Hwarang Do homepage. Back in a week, Carsten Jorgensen Copenhagen, Denmark hwarangdo@email.com - -- _______________________________________________ Make PC-to-Phone calls with Net2Phone. Sign-up today at: http://www.net2phone.com/cgi-bin/link.cgi?121 ------------------------------ From: Ray Terry Date: Sat, 14 Jul 2001 13:04:34 PDT Subject: Re: the_dojang: Re: Hwarangdo (will the real one please stand up) > The master in Australia's only affiliation with GM Lee is that he named > his style after GM Lee's style when he went to Australia. No, no affiliation that I'm aware of. Koreans and korean stylists just seem to like to use the name Hwarang in various things like styles, forms, etc. Ray Terry raymail@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com ------------------------------ From: Ray Terry Date: Sat, 14 Jul 2001 13:08:00 PDT Subject: the_dojang: small circles > ... 3 weapons forms before blackbelt, small circles,... Ah, finally a possible thread. In your version of Hapkido :) do you use small circle techniques in weapon defenses? If so, seems like a -possible- flaw... Ray Terry raymail@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com ------------------------------ From: "Master Frank Clay" Date: Sat, 14 Jul 2001 15:38:31 -0400 Subject: the_dojang: RE: The_Dojang-Digest V8 #407 chief authority in the world of Korean Martial Arts... Very bold statment. Very bold indeed, on behalf of the Kido people.. and just who made Seo Kwanjang that? ------------------------------ From: ABurrese@aol.com Date: Sat, 14 Jul 2001 15:42:13 EDT Subject: the_dojang: Re: interviews << Could you define an "interview?" Is this a physical attack, or a verbal assault, or a proposition? Sorry, I'm just not familiar with the term. >> The interview is when an individual is sizing up the would be victim. An example shows this more clearly: I'm a mugger, I "interview" a prospective victim by seeing how she walks, where she walks, how she holds her purse, how she reacts when I approach her (doesn't define her boundaries, etc.) Failing the interview is done by being aware and recognizing potential danger and avoiding it. The would be attacker goes somewhere else because you are not going to be an easy target. Peyton Quinn talks a lot about this in his books, videos and classes. That's where I got the term, and probably most people using the term got it from Peyton. Yours in Training, Alain Burrese http://members.aol.com/aburrese/ ------------------------------ From: Ray Terry Date: Sat, 14 Jul 2001 13:19:37 PDT Subject: Re: the_dojang: Re: Hapkido = Hwarang-Do ??? > In 1968 (~33 years ago) GM Lee dropped all ranks, including his 8th dan, > and all connections to Hapkido and has NEVER been involved with 'Hapkido' > since. ??? So JB Lee dropped his 8th Dan the very same year YS Choi awarded it to him? I've heard others mention this too, so it just isn't with JB Lee, but I never quite followed how one could effectively 'drop' a rank that they had already earned and accepted. Seems like attempting to rewrite history. One may be inactive or no longer affiliated, but IMO you can't just 'drop' it. > Does Hwarang Do = Hapkido? Given your own def, yes, it would seem so... :) Ray Terry raymail@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com ------------------------------ From: ABurrese@aol.com Date: Sat, 14 Jul 2001 15:46:16 EDT Subject: the_dojang: Hapkido Hoshinsul From another list: Date: Fri, 13 Jul 2001 17:57:08 +0000 From: Jeremy Talbott Subject: Congrats to member Alain Burrese I wanted to send out a congrats to Alain whose video, Hapkido Hoshinsul, was reviewed in the September issue of Black Belt in the Essential Gear colum. It was quoted saying "..offers a smorgasbord of impressive techniques that are fully explained..", "..progresses smoothly and logically...", and "This is one of the few hapkido instructional tapes that I (Mark Cheng) have found worth watching and deifnitely worth owning-regardless of your level." Good going Alain. When can we expect the next video? Jeremy Jeremy, Thanks! I had not seen that review. As for the next video, Self-Defense Essentials (working title) it will be out in January 2002. I'm supposed to get a preview copy of it in Sept. or Oct. and then it will be featured in Paladin's January catalog as well as being listed in their magazine ads. This new one is a two video set and does not cover joint locks, it is more on striking, low kicks, counters to various grabs, basic falling, kicking from the ground, etc. We filmed a number of outside shots using the stuff I teach inside to compliment the instruction, so I'm looking forward to seeing it myself. I think it will be a very good basic self-defense set. I also talk about awareness and such as well. Planning on two more to film next year probably. One that will pick up where the first one left off with joint locks, expanding on what was there, new ones, flowing from one to another, etc. I'll probably put a little dan bong and cane on that one as well. The next will be a surprise.... Thanks for letting me know about that. Yours in Training, Alain http://members.aol.com/aburrese/ ------------------------------ From: Ray Terry Date: Sat, 14 Jul 2001 13:25:47 PDT Subject: Re: the_dojang: Re: interviews > Peyton Quinn talks a lot about this in his books, videos and classes. That's > where I got the term, and probably most people using the term got it from > Peyton. I think Quinn may have picked it up from the LEO community. I seem to recall hearing that term used ~35 years ago. One would suspect it was used prior to that. But my memory could be failing me, just like my knees... :) Ray Terry raymail@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com ------------------------------ From: Ray Terry Date: Sat, 14 Jul 2001 13:36:52 PDT Subject: Re: the_dojang: Re: Thanks Carsten > Also, originally they all used other names than Hapkido for their styles > (GM Choi called his style Yawara, GM Suh said Yu Kwon Sul etc, later > from around 1961 Hapkido were a generic name used by almost all of them. > Some, like GM Lee, used it together with his original Hwarang Do name. Ok. Good point. But now why did that happen? Why was there more than one instructor using the name Hapkido? I submit because of the style's popularity and name recognition. Similar to how Hwang Kee and others started using the name Tang Soo Do, given the popularity of Chung Do Kwan. And we see HwaRang and HwaRangDo used by more than just one. Is that sufficient to make HwaRangDo generic or TangSooDo generic with no ability to tell what they 'look' like? I guess some would say, yes. Ray Terry raymail@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com ------------------------------ From: Ray Terry Date: Sat, 14 Jul 2001 13:47:42 PDT Subject: the_dojang: . ------------------------------ End of The_Dojang-Digest V8 #408 ******************************** It's a great day for Taekwondo! Support the USTU by joining today. US Taekwondo Union, 1 Olympic Plaza, Ste 104C, Colorado Spgs, CO 80909 719-578-4632 FAX 719-578-4642 ustutkd1@aol.com http://www.ustu.org To unsubscribe from the_dojang-digest send the command: unsubscribe the_dojang-digest -or- unsubscribe the_dojang-digest your.old@address in the BODY (top line, left justified) of a "plain text" e-mail addressed to majordomo@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com. Old digest issues are available via ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com. Copyright 1994-2001: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource Standard disclaimers apply.