From: the_dojang-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com To: the_dojang-digest@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Subject: The_Dojang-Digest V8 #410 Reply-To: the_dojang@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Errors-To: the_dojang-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Precedence: The_Dojang-Digest Sun, 15 July 2001 Vol 08 : Num 410 In this issue: the_dojang: Interviews the_dojang: Re:HwaRangDo Invitation the_dojang: Re:DD Net Invitation the_dojang: Re: The_Dojang-Digest V8 #408 the_dojang: martial arts mayhem the_dojang: Re: HRD yesterday vs. today ? the_dojang: RE: WoCP (was: Spinning Heel kick) the_dojang: Re: Hwarangdo (will the real one please stand up) the_dojang: Re: small circles the_dojang: Re: Hapkido = Hwarang-Do ??? the_dojang: Re: Thanks Carsten the_dojang: Re: ITF the_dojang: Re: GM Lee and training... (aka Suahm Dosa thread) the_dojang: Re: MooYeKwan & Pellegrini the_dojang: Re: ITF President Re: the_dojang: Re: Hapkido = Hwarang-Do ??? the_dojang: . ========================================================================= The_Dojang, serving the Internet since June 1994. ~1111 members strong! Copyright 1994-2001: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource The premier internet discussion forum devoted to the Korean Martial Arts. Replying to this message will NOT unsubscribe you. To unsubscribe, send "unsubscribe the_dojang-digest" (no quotes) in the body (top line, left justified) of a "plain text" e-mail addressed to majordomo@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com. To send e-mail to this list use the_dojang@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com See the Korean Martial Arts (KMA) FAQ and the online search engine for back issues of The_Dojang at http://www.MartialArtsResource.com Pil Seung! ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Meghan Gardner" Date: Sun, 15 Jul 2001 00:50:34 -0400 Subject: the_dojang: Interviews Steve writes: <> Before I trained so avidly in assault PREVENTION, I had to defend myself against 2 separate incidents before the past ten years... a simple redirection of a rush into a wall for the first and defense against multiple assailants on my way home from a library on a second. All other situations before that were due to a dysfunctional view of the world on my part and my place in it. They were not really self defense because they were completely avoidable if it were not for my then uncontrollable temper. I don't feel I am in danger by these interviews today... I would if I failed them. 2-3 interviews a year is not abnormal for a woman who travels alone a lot or who works late in a not-so-safe part of town. An interview can be as simple as someone pretending to talk on the payphone while they watch you walk toward your car. They then hang up (without having said anything in the telephone) and approach you from behind. This interview was cancelled by turning and facing the person and asking them directly if there was a problem while maintaining an assertive posture. They stopped and scoped me for a moment and then turned and left. This one happened to me two separate times in different parts of San Francisco. Riding mass transit is another prime time for interviews. You can actually watch them scoping the riders for a potential pickpocket victim. I was even interviewed twice by other women as a possible candidate for a bar fight. And I've been interviewed by a man who sized me up after he slapped his ex-girlfriend and I stood between him and her. No words were exchanged - but there was a *definite* interview going on there. There have been others... some overt and others more subtle. But all were identifiable. Meghan Gardner Director Guard Up, Inc. www.guardup.com Waltham, MA USA "Always carry love in your heart, and a knife in your pocket." me ------------------------------ From: "Bruce Sims" Date: Sun, 15 Jul 2001 01:38:25 -0500 Subject: the_dojang: Re:HwaRangDo Invitation Dear Carsten: This may be an odd way to open a response to you, but I would like to respond to Franks¡¯ question about use of the name ¡°HwaRangDo,¡± because, in a strange way its a metaphor for my issue with the current dialogue regarding this particular Hapkido art. The short answer (Frank) is that there is nothing wrong with GM Lee using any name he cares to take responsibility for. The problem that I have is that the current line of reasoning, rationale, explanation seems long on contrivance and short on fact and I believe that use of the name HwaRangDo is a pretty good example of it. Another is the convoluted and highly qualified responses of the interview I am about to cite. At this point I would like to address Carsten once again. Carsten, to answer your question RE: 11 years old I am citing the BLACK BELT magazine Interview Pt 2 (October 2000). GM Lee states that he began training with his father (pg57) ¡°as soon as (my brother and I) were old enough to walk.¡± GM Lee goes on to say that his father ¡°went to Sukwang Temple....Hamnam Province...He asked Su-Ahm Dosa to accept the two of us as his students. At the time of our acceptance in 1942 I was 4 years old.¡± Ergo: GM Lee was born in 1938.) GM Lee goes on to relate tha nature of his training and then states ¡°There were 260 categories with over 4,000 techniques along with 108 traditional weapons broken down into 20 categoreis.....Once we had learned all these skills we were recognized as masters.¡± GM Lee then says that in 1948 (6 years of study and now GM Lee is 10 years old) ¡°my family and Su-ahm Dosa relocated to Seoul ...my brother and I trained with him daily until our family relocated farther south in 1950.¡± Thats it, Carsten--- 11 years old. I¡¯ll even give you 12 if you assume GM Lee started and stopped on his bithday. To make it even better GM Lee by his account did not even train all 11 years with Su-Ahm Dosa as he spent his first 4 with his father. So GM Lee learned all 4000 techniques, 108 weapons (plus some sul sa (spying) techniques between the ages of 4 and 12. There are no other references to training with Su-Ahm Dosa after 1950. GM Lee states that he was teaching in his own school in 1960 (aged 22) (¡°In 1960 I was teaching under the HwaRang Mu Sool banner.. ... I changed the name of my school to HwaRangdo and Hapkido.....and Ji, Han Jae switched and founded Sung Mu Kwan Hapkido.¡± GM Lee does mention training with GM Choi and ¡°in 1956, my brother and I recieved master-level (rank) in yu sool.... and anyone who trained in Korea between 1960 and 1968 knew I was a Hapkido founder and Hwa Rang Do founder. ¡° Now, before I go any farther in this dialogue I think its important to clear up an small but important point. ------------------------------ From: "Bruce Sims" Date: Sun, 15 Jul 2001 02:11:11 -0500 Subject: the_dojang: Re:DD Net Invitation Dear Frank, Richard, Jose et al: Its 10 after 2am here in Chicago and I have just completed submitting an invitation to Carsten for what I think is a fundamental change in the way we (he and I) are doing business. I feel pretty confident in doing this with Carsten as he is one of those folks who I have developed a lot of respect for. However, the entire writing effort gave me pause to think about whats happening here on the DD Net and I wanted to extend a similar invitation to you folks who have been involved in some animated exchanges. I am a teacher. Its what I do and what I have chosen to spend my life doing. MA is one way I teach, counseling is another, being a grandfather is yet another. When I listen to the various exchanges on DD more often than not what I am getting are peoples opinions about the trappings of the Korean arts and not much by way of substance. To make matters worse, even when Ray posts some pretty interesting things on developments in Korean, Korean history or Korean culture, I don't see anyone doing anything with it. I am beginning to wonder if how we are using the DD is actually the best use of this venue. Please let me suggest some examples. 1.) Rather than this mean-spirited exchange about what gets paired with what in the same paragraph I would have been more interested to hear what circumstances led to Hal starting his own kwan. Whatismore I would have enjoyed hearing about what it is that his kwan works to accomplish that other kwans don't do or do differently. 2.) I never expected the GM Hwang Kee material about Soo Bahk Do and Tang Soo Do to become just one more bitching match. How come no one took the iniative to do something more with that. Ray even provided one possible alternative with his forms comparison but nobody picked up on it. Aren't there any more TSD-Taek kyon- SBD - TKD people who could get together to compare and contrast the way these various arts execute their techniques? 3.) I was pressing the point about the origins of the title "do-ju-nim" and rather than pitch in about the developement of the term and the institution the discussion reverted back to who was authentic and who wasn't. And thats just about a MADE-UP title. What would folks have done if these titles were in fact worth something in Korean martial tradition? Spill blood? :-) I guess where I'm going with this invite is that we could be doing a lot more with this venue but its going to require taking a bigger view of what we are trying to accomplish.If you need an example of what I am talking about take another look at #409 and note how questions are being asked/answered, information is disclosed and additional resources are suggested. Good stuff, this. Can't we make this happen more often? Best Wishes, Bruce ------------------------------ From: Steve Seo Date: Sun, 15 Jul 2001 01:01:49 -0700 (PDT) Subject: the_dojang: Re: The_Dojang-Digest V8 #408 "Very bold statment. Very bold indeed, on behalf of the Kido people.. and just who made Seo Kwanjang that?" Clay KwanJangnim, Just for your own edification, the proper way to refer to an individual that is a Kwan Jang is to use the suffix "nim" after the title of Kwan Jang to show respect. Not doing so means you are either higher in rank than that person and he is your junior or else it is has a disrespective tone. Not trying to start any conflict, just pointing out a very important part of the Korean language(the use of honorific markers) if you would like to use it properly. In terms of your question, having led the Kidohae as Chairman and been involved in Korean Martial Arts since the malestrom of events that define modern Korean Martial Arts history, Chairman Seo has earned the designation as the chief authority of Korean Martial Arts. Not to take away from indviduals such as Choi Yong Sool, Ji Han Jae, Suh Bok Sup or the plethora of other masters that have great knowledge and experience in the Korean Martial Arts whom I gladly give respect to and acknowledge their immeasurable influence, it is the belief among a vast majority of martial artists in Korea as well as around the world that Chairman Seo's status is unsurpassed. Of course many may disagree, which is fine with me. However, I challenge anyone to find a senior Korean Martial Arts Master that questions Chairman Seo's technical knowledge, historical knowledge or influence. Furthermore, as cases in point: First off, last month the current president of the Korean government "task force/organization" created by the Korean government that oversees Fitness and Health(it is difficult to direct translate this, my apologies) in Korea contacted Chairman Seo first as the definitive authority on Korean Martial Arts. Second, Chairman Seo has owned and operated a martial arts school in Korean for over 30 years continously and has trained continously for over 40 years. Chairman Seo has met with the President of Korea(specifically Noh Teh Woo at the time, I have the picture of you would like to see it) as the definitve representative for Korean Martial Arts. Third, Chairman Seo and his direct students represented Korean Martial Arts in the late 70's in Ho Kuk Mu Yea(Martial Arts that Defend our Nation, I have a copy of this as well) that the Korean Government Ministry of Culture put out to represent Korean Martial Arts. Fourth, Chairman Seo is the Chairman of the Kidohae and in that role he has, by definition, been charged by the Korean Government to lead the Korean Martial Arts. If you have a problem with the word "the chief authority" than that's ok too. I will acknowledge that there live today other Masters that are as influential in their own right. Steve Seo __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get personalized email addresses from Yahoo! Mail http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/ ------------------------------ From: "Daniel G." Date: Sun, 15 Jul 2001 05:16:13 -0400 Subject: the_dojang: martial arts mayhem Guys, you absolutely MUST visit http://games.sohu.com/fightgame/fight3.htm. Make sure you have a few minutes for a Flash movie to load & play, it's well worth the wait. Anybody who's ever seen a martial arts movie will love this. While you're waiting you can download the .avi movie which is #1, & if you've ever played a fighting video game, check out #2. I can't read Chinese, but I recommend picking the bottom choice & then going from top to bottom on the next screen. ~Daniel _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com ------------------------------ From: "Carsten Jorgensen" Date: Sun, 15 Jul 2001 18:15:13 +0800 Subject: the_dojang: Re: HRD yesterday vs. today ? Ray: >> Carsten (or others), How has, or how would you guess, GM JB Lee's HwaRangDo changed over the last ~40 years? Did he add eastern med components after obtaining his LAc? << Hwarang Do changes every now and then, sometimes big changes, sometimes small changes, but oriental medicine etc was already a part of Hwarang Do from the beginning, and it was actually one of Suam Dosa's specialities. It's an um-yang thing – if you now how to hurt you also have to know how to heal. >> BTW, when I visited him 20 years ago in SoCal his office/dojang was just that, half medical office and half dojang. He sat there and chatted with me while class was going on. You could sit near the front and easily see into both halves. Is he still in that same location? GM Lee is very open if he has the time. The school is still on Firestone, same place. One part of the building is the clinic and the other part is the Dojang. I started believing acupuncture works after seeing GM Lee treating patients. After my knees were fixed in Korea after one treatment I really believe it works :-) Carsten Jorgensen Copenhagen, Denmark hwarangdo@email.com - -- _______________________________________________ Make PC-to-Phone calls with Net2Phone. Sign-up today at: http://www.net2phone.com/cgi-bin/link.cgi?121 ------------------------------ From: "Carsten Jorgensen" Date: Sun, 15 Jul 2001 18:16:03 +0800 Subject: the_dojang: RE: WoCP (was: Spinning Heel kick) Me: > Anyway, I've been very busy so I've missed a lot of the posts, could you post your definition of Hapkido again? < Ray: >> The Way of Coordinated Power. << Cool, by your definition Hwarang Do does not equal Hapkido. Now we're really getting somewhere :-) Carsten Jorgensen Copenhagen, Denmark hwarangdo@email.com - -- _______________________________________________ Make PC-to-Phone calls with Net2Phone. Sign-up today at: http://www.net2phone.com/cgi-bin/link.cgi?121 ------------------------------ From: "Carsten Jorgensen" Date: Sun, 15 Jul 2001 18:16:56 +0800 Subject: the_dojang: Re: Hwarangdo (will the real one please stand up) Me: >> The master in Australia's only affiliation with GM Lee is that he named his style after GM Lee's style when he went to Australia. << Ray: >> No, no affiliation that I'm aware of. Koreans and korean stylists just seem to like to use the name Hwarang in various things like styles, forms, etc. << Well, he told GM Lee that he named his style after GM Lee's Hwarang Do because he'd heard about it in Korea. Carsten Jorgensen Copenhagen, Denmark hwarangdo@email.com - -- _______________________________________________ Make PC-to-Phone calls with Net2Phone. Sign-up today at: http://www.net2phone.com/cgi-bin/link.cgi?121 ------------------------------ From: "Carsten Jorgensen" Date: Sun, 15 Jul 2001 18:18:43 +0800 Subject: the_dojang: Re: small circles Me: >> ... 3 weapons forms before blackbelt, small circles,... << Ray: >> In your version of Hapkido :) << Hwarang Do dropped all affiliations with the generic term Hapkido more than 30 years ago, so Hwarang Do is not Hapkido. Anyway, as I said already, I don't mind if people say Hwarang Do was one of the 'Hapkido' styles, if they know the history. But I've been posting for so long, that I know that the only part of all these posts people will remember is they'll think I said Hwarang Do = Hapkido. >> do you use small circle techniques in weapon defenses? If so, seems like a -possible- flaw... << Discussing techniques in e-mail just don't work Ray. I think it's a waste of time because if I say 'small circle' you think one thing and everybody else thinks something else. We'll have to wait until the_dojang have enough bandwidth to accept video :-) Carsten Jorgensen Copenhagen, Denmark hwarangdo@email.com - -- _______________________________________________ Make PC-to-Phone calls with Net2Phone. Sign-up today at: http://www.net2phone.com/cgi-bin/link.cgi?121 ------------------------------ From: "Carsten Jorgensen" Date: Sun, 15 Jul 2001 18:20:14 +0800 Subject: the_dojang: Re: Hapkido = Hwarang-Do ??? Me: >> In 1968 (~33 years ago) GM Lee dropped all ranks, including his 8th dan, and all connections to Hapkido and has NEVER been involved with 'Hapkido' since. << Ray: >> ??? So JB Lee dropped his 8th Dan the very same year YS Choi awarded it to him? << Yes, it was within a couple of months, when the organisation fell apart. >> I've heard others mention this too, so it just isn't with JB Lee, but I never quite followed how one could effectively 'drop' a rank that they had already earned and accepted. Seems like attempting to rewrite history. One may be inactive or no longer affiliated, but IMO you can't just 'drop' it. << Call it what you like. GM Lee was tired of all the politics, people selling ranks and stuff like that, plus there were a couple of people who kept the government money for themselves. So he started all over by himself. He dropped all affiliations, including his 8th dan, which was the highest rank at the time and has never promoted himself as one of the old original leaders of "Hapkido" (which he is of course). Me: >> Does Hwarang Do = Hapkido? << Ray: >>Given your own def, yes, it would seem so... :) << Hwarang Do dropped all affiliations with the generic term Hapkido more than 30 years ago, so Hwarang Do is not Hapkido, how is that definition? Carsten Jorgensen Copenhagen, Denmark hwarangdo@email.com - -- _______________________________________________ Make PC-to-Phone calls with Net2Phone. Sign-up today at: http://www.net2phone.com/cgi-bin/link.cgi?121 ------------------------------ From: "Carsten Jorgensen" Date: Sun, 15 Jul 2001 18:22:21 +0800 Subject: the_dojang: Re: Thanks Carsten Me: >> Also, originally they all used other names than Hapkido for their styles (GM Choi called his style Yawara, GM Suh said Yu Kwon Sul etc, later from around 1961 Hapkido were a generic name used by almost all of them. Some, like GM Lee, used it together with his original Hwarang Do name. << >> Ok. Good point. But now why did that happen? Why was there more than one instructor using the name Hapkido? << Why did people use other names than Yawara? Some wanted to get away from the Japanese Yawara, others like GM Lee used his original name. Why did Hapkido become popular? Aikido, sorry- Hapkido is just a cool name I guess. It sounds good. Or maybe it was just, as it often happens in Korea, that one name caught on and everybody started using it. You also have to remember that the name was not used always, for instance when the Kido Hwe Hae founded in 1963 the primary reason to change the name change was to get away from the Japanese Aikido/Hapkido. (Of course 'Kido Hwe' are the same characters as Koichi Tohei's 'Ki Association', but they didn't know that at the time). I'm guessing that name just stuck. >> And we see HwaRang and HwaRangDo used by more than just one. Is that sufficient to make HwaRangDo generic or TangSooDo generic with no ability to tell what they 'look' like? I guess some would say, yes. << No this is different, the other people use the Hwarang name for martial arts because of GM Lee. Hwarang Do is not a generic term when we're talking martial arts, that's why it can be trademarked. Carsten Jorgensen Copenhagen, Denmark hwarangdo@email.com - -- _______________________________________________ Make PC-to-Phone calls with Net2Phone. Sign-up today at: http://www.net2phone.com/cgi-bin/link.cgi?121 ------------------------------ From: Piotr Bernat Date: Sun, 15 Jul 2001 08:48:50 +0200 Subject: the_dojang: Re: ITF > By the way, the 13th ITF World Championship will be held in Warsaw, Poland > during the summer of 2003. I look forward to making the trip. I`m looking forward to see you there... no matter what organisation, if an event like this is held in my country, I`m gonna be there. > PS: Sir, the Polish men's team soundly beat the DPRK men's team in team > sparring the ITF Championships. I have a few pictures of them at > www.maestastkd.com. Not sure what day it was, but they are the 5 bleached > blond guys against the five black haired ones. We all were routing for > Poland that day. I`m really glad to hear that. And yes, despite all the differences we`re glad that our team became world`s number 1 :) BTW: please call me Piotr since I feel terribly old when someone addresses me as "Sir" (and I`m only 29...;) - -- Piotr Bernat dantaekwondo@lublin.home.pl http://www.taekwondo.prv.pl ------------------------------ From: "ISA CONSULTATION GROUP" Date: Sun, 15 Jul 2001 08:36:02 -0400 Subject: the_dojang: Re: GM Lee and training... (aka Suahm Dosa thread) Sounds to me like this Monk Suahm Dosa is similiar in invisibility to the GM of Sun Moo Kwan hapkido. (Not to be confused with Sung Moo Kwan or Song Moo Kwan). george petrotta FREE ISA membership http://taekwondo.4dw.com/ http://hapkido.4dw.com/ http://gpetrott.webjump.com/index.html ISA CONSULTATION GROUP includes ISA Martial Arts, ISA Web Design and ISA Consulting Services! _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com ------------------------------ From: JSaportajr@aol.com Date: Sun, 15 Jul 2001 09:19:20 EDT Subject: the_dojang: Re: MooYeKwan & Pellegrini Master Hackworth, just a point of clarification. Mooyekwan is not a martial art created by Master Whalen. It is a kwan that teaches traditional Hapkido. Master Whalen makes no claims to have created any martial art. Also, I did not read previous discussions re Mr. Pellegrini. And I do not wish to inflame Michael Rowe, who seems a sincere and dedicated martial artist. But it seems clear to me that if Mr. Pellegrinin received his black belt a few short years ago as witnessed by Mike Tomlinson, got most of his training from seminars, and is now calling himself a grand master, then legitimate martial artists and lovers of Hapkido have an obligation to point out and speak up against this for the sake of preserving the integrity of Hapkido. I have spoken to several legitimate Hapkido masters who have personally witnessed Pellegrini's technique, which should speak for themselves, and he is no grand master. Jose' ------------------------------ From: JSaportajr@aol.com Date: Sun, 15 Jul 2001 09:08:57 EDT Subject: the_dojang: Re: ITF President In a message dated 7/15/2001 12:14:48 AM Eastern Daylight Time, the_dojang-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com writes << Only Master Choi and General Choi were running for president. It doesn't appear that very many people want the job. >> Want the job?, or feel that they even had a shot at the job?, or perhaps got the clear message that no one else should run? Don't you suspect that this "election" was predetermined? Not a shot at the ITF, but I would fall off my chair if I ever came across a Korean Martial Arts Association that was truly democratic. USTU and WTF included. I know of a Korean man who was president of a state Taekwondo association (USTU), who was told by a high ranking official to step aside for another Korean man who was from the high-ranking official's town in Korea and kwan. The state president refused, and he had the sh-- beat out of him outside his hotel in Colorado. My instructor was voted the president of the Massachusetts TKD Association and the election was thrown out by the USTU and given to his Korean opponent. Do you really think that it just so happened that the General's son was the only one who wanted the job? Jose' ------------------------------ From: Ray Terry Date: Sun, 15 Jul 2001 9:08:21 PDT Subject: Re: the_dojang: Re: Hapkido = Hwarang-Do ??? > Hwarang Do dropped all affiliations with the generic term Hapkido more > than 30 years ago... Too many seem to think that just saying something makes it so. Ray Terry raymail@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com ------------------------------ From: Ray Terry Date: Sun, 15 Jul 2001 9:42:39 PDT Subject: the_dojang: . ------------------------------ End of The_Dojang-Digest V8 #410 ******************************** It's a great day for Taekwondo! Support the USTU by joining today. US Taekwondo Union, 1 Olympic Plaza, Ste 104C, Colorado Spgs, CO 80909 719-578-4632 FAX 719-578-4642 ustutkd1@aol.com http://www.ustu.org To unsubscribe from the_dojang-digest send the command: unsubscribe the_dojang-digest -or- unsubscribe the_dojang-digest your.old@address in the BODY (top line, left justified) of a "plain text" e-mail addressed to majordomo@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com. 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