From: the_dojang-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com To: the_dojang-digest@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Subject: The_Dojang-Digest V8 #411 Reply-To: the_dojang@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Errors-To: the_dojang-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Precedence: The_Dojang-Digest Sun, 15 July 2001 Vol 08 : Num 411 In this issue: the_dojang: RE: The_Dojang-Digest V8 #410 the_dojang: oops forgot the_dojang: Re: The_Dojang-Digest V8 #401 the_dojang: BBs and skills and teaching the_dojang: Re: ITF President the_dojang: specifics the_dojang: Nim /Sir ? the_dojang: Re: Hapkido = Hwarang-Do ??? the_dojang: ITF, WTF Taekwondo and Tang Soo Do the_dojang: The ongoing ICHF debate the_dojang: Doju Nim Ji the_dojang: re: kuk sool won v8#409 the_dojang: A little more Songahm, anyone? the_dojang: Re:HwaRangDo Invitation the_dojang: Re: Hapkido = Hwarang-Do ??? Re: the_dojang: Re: Hapkido = Hwarang-Do ??? the_dojang: Bruce, good idea/My idea for a new thread the_dojang: Special Thanks the_dojang: . ========================================================================= The_Dojang, serving the Internet since June 1994. ~1111 members strong! Copyright 1994-2001: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource The premier internet discussion forum devoted to the Korean Martial Arts. Replying to this message will NOT unsubscribe you. To unsubscribe, send "unsubscribe the_dojang-digest" (no quotes) in the body (top line, left justified) of a "plain text" e-mail addressed to majordomo@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com. To send e-mail to this list use the_dojang@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com See the Korean Martial Arts (KMA) FAQ and the online search engine for back issues of The_Dojang at http://www.MartialArtsResource.com Pil Seung! ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Master Frank Clay" Date: Sun, 15 Jul 2001 12:43:04 -0400 Subject: the_dojang: RE: The_Dojang-Digest V8 #410 Mr Seo, No disrespect regarding titles was intended. It was my humble understanding that the suffix "Nim" is not written in Korean but is spken. My attempt was to show deference to someone who is clearly my senior in the martial arts, although i disagreed with what was written. Further, it was m understanding that in person, I should actually call him Chun Kwanjang (nim). Nothing more. Frank ------------------------------ From: "Master Frank Clay" Date: Sun, 15 Jul 2001 12:48:02 -0400 Subject: the_dojang: oops forgot Thank you Mr. Seo. I understand the need for the Kido to sell their events... its what we do. We sell trainng in a particular skill... but lets be realistic. No one man can be the definitive expert on all types of Korean Mudo. Sorry, it aint gonna happen... not will all the variances and what not... heck look at all the variances in Taekwondo alone... then there are what 70 some kwans of hapkido recognized by the KHF? See what I mean? This is a common sense thing, more than amartial arts thing. Frank ------------------------------ From: FGS & KVF Date: Sun, 15 Jul 2001 10:12:34 -0700 Subject: the_dojang: Re: The_Dojang-Digest V8 #401 > I liked Meghan's list too, so I will add your tips to my self-defense tool kit or at least add to the things I want to learn or learn better depending on whether I have them already or not. I am also involved in FMA to supplement my dojang training for self-defense. We have some of the points in yours and > Meghan's list and not others, altho some were addressed at the KM seminar I attended. I think both of you have good points re: self-defense vs just MA training. For some, their MA includes these points but for others probably not. Spunky > Subject: the_dojang: Meghan's List > > I thought Meghan's Self-Defense list was so good that I couldn't help but > add to it. Keep in mind that I'm choosing to remain totally within the > confines of an unarmed one-on-one scenario, and will not address any of the > mental dynamics (rather I'll stick to some of the often neglected technical > necessities of fighting). ------------------------------ From: FGS & KVF Date: Sun, 15 Jul 2001 10:46:23 -0700 Subject: the_dojang: BBs and skills and teaching I know we have had this discussion b4 about what is a BB and how important are the physical skills to the requirements, but a recent event has brought it to my attention again. In my first dojang, the instructor was adamant re: skills and teaching requirements. He felt that the certificate indicated his and Kukkiwon's acknowledgement of the student's prowess as a BB. This meant that he/she could go on to teach or own a school somewhere with the BB. Altho, my instructor did not think 1st degrees should be owning schools. However, he knew he did not have control over everyone, so he insured that the students at his school were proficient at the skills and teaching them. Now, the new dojang I am at is not like this. While the instructor-owner is very good, he tends to promote students quicker than their skills would indicate. Recently, we had a new BB promote. This BB is about the skill level of an intermediate, and can't teach either. However, while a very nice person, who is thrilled and letting everyone know he is now a BB, he really isn't at that level and I find this sad and bad for the art itself. Mostly, I find it bad for the students he will teach. He has discussed opening up a school somewhere else to teach with his kids. He can do this, but what will be passed on to potential students. I was in the first class that he attempted to teach, and I must say it was not a very good class. Now of course he will improve with time, but I don't go to his classes b/c I want to improve and the classes are neither challenging physically nor mentally. That is my fear and my original thot when I contributed to the BB discussion many moons ago. I think it is important that BBs are good physically and mentally, and we do a disservice to them and future students if we don't insist on good skills. I know everyone has their own skill level and some BBs will be awesome and others just good, but as long as they know their skills and can pass them on correctly, they will be ok as BBs. Oh, and to be fair to the instructor he is not money grubbing, he just doesn't seem to be able to say no to the students who want to promote quickly b/c he needs to make a living and he doesn't want to lose students from impatience with the time factor. Spunky ------------------------------ From: "Robert Martin" Date: Sun, 15 Jul 2001 12:50:18 -0600 Subject: the_dojang: Re: ITF President Unfortunately, what you say has some truth in it. I think it will take longer than the 35 years that the ITF has been around or the 50 or so years that modern Korean MAs have been around, for them to become truly international (non-Korean leaders, etc.). Part of the ITF situation is that many (most?) of the seniors from around the world feel that Master Choi Jung Hwa deserves the position. This poor man had a very difficult life. Some of it was just being the son of a high ranking military officer. But think on this -- General Choi was willing to sacrifice his children for Taekwon-Do. How would you feel in that situation? IMHO, the nature of MA requires a strong central authority. This in itself breads a certain amount of animosity and resentment. On the whole, a difficult situation. But when you come right down to it, the leader of the organization that I belong to, doesn't really change what I do -- teach colored belts the basics of the art that I have learned. I do get caught up in the political battles, because I am a very political person. When push comes to shove, however, politics just don't matter. Regards, Robert Martin 4th Dan ITF/USTF > << > Only Master Choi and General Choi were running for president. It doesn't > appear that very many people want the job. > >> > Want the job?, or feel that they even had a shot at the job?, or perhaps got > the clear message that no one else should run? Don't you suspect that this > "election" was predetermined? Not a shot at the ITF, but I would fall off my > chair if I ever came across a Korean Martial Arts Association that was truly > democratic. USTU and WTF included. I know of a Korean man who was president > of a state Taekwondo association (USTU), who was told by a high ranking > official to step aside for another Korean man who was from the high-ranking > official's town in Korea and kwan. The state president refused, and he had > the sh-- beat out of him outside his hotel in Colorado. My instructor was > voted the president of the Massachusetts TKD Association and the election was > thrown out by the USTU and given to his Korean opponent. Do you really think > that it just so happened that the General's son was the only one who wanted > the job? Jose' _________________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com ------------------------------ From: Ray Terry Date: Sun, 15 Jul 2001 12:34:38 PDT Subject: the_dojang: specifics >>> Carsten (or others), > How has, or how would you guess, GM JB Lee's HwaRangDo changed over the last > ~40 years? Did he add eastern med components after obtaining his LAc? << > > Hwarang Do changes every now and then, sometimes big changes, sometimes small > changes, but oriental medicine etc was already a part of Hwarang Do from > the beginning, and it was actually one of Suam Dosa's specialities. I'm trying to get away from our typical yes it is, not it isn't discussion. Can't you be a bit more specific as to what changes have occurred in GM Lee's HRD over the years? e.g. what changes have you yourself seen? >> do you use small circle techniques in weapon defenses? If so, seems like a > -possible- flaw... << >Discussing techniques in e-mail just don't work Ray. I think it's a waste of >time because if I say 'small circle' you think one thing and everybody else >thinks something else. I think small circles when you say small circle, one well known example is the type of JJ that Wally Jay has specialized in. What does everyone else think when they hear small circles? Large circles? :) Ray Terry raymail@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com ------------------------------ From: Bernard G Redfield Date: Sun, 15 Jul 2001 15:05:33 -0400 Subject: the_dojang: Nim /Sir ? <<>>>>>>>>> Mr. Steve Seo, I have used the following, adressing e-mail / letters: Kwan Jhang (name), Sir, (letter body) Would this then be wrong? is nim like saying sir? then I would be saying: Kwan Jhang Nim (name) Sir, (letter body) Is this not saying sir,sir,? Please let me know if I have been in error : ) Respects Bernard ------------------------------ From: jsegovia@mindspring.com Date: Sun, 15 Jul 2001 15:12:48 -0400 Subject: the_dojang: Re: Hapkido = Hwarang-Do ??? Occam's Razor, or the Law of Parsimony, is the idea that when there are more than one explanations for a given phenomenon, the simplest one is usually right. This 'razor' is used to cut away components of an explanation that either cannot be proven or perceived, or are not necessary for the overall explanation to be true. Occam's Razor tells us that the simplest explanation for a group of martial artists who all knew one another, who trained together, and who now teach very similar martial arts of deep breathing; hoshinsul; high, acrobatic kicking; the same weapons; healing arts; circle theories of movement and technique; etc., etc., is that these men all learned or developed their martial arts together, and not independently, as some seem to claim. If we can accept that these arts were all developed together, then the next question is who were the forerunners or founders of this art. It's commonly accepted that Choi YongSul was back in Korea and teaching Yawara by the late 1940s. Does anyone claim that any of the men who subsequently founded their own Korean martial arts are Choi YongSul's seniors, and taught Yawara to him? Does it make sense that these men who know and trained with Choi YongSul and his senior students, independently learned very similar martial arts to that taught by Choi YongSul, and learned nothing from Choi YongSul and those students? I don't doubt that there was a falling away when these senior men left Hapkido completely and began their own traditions, which is fine. But I find the claim of independent development difficult to swallow. Anyone who has even very general experience with Hapkido and these others arts can see the similarities. Jesse ------------------------------ From: "Damian Jones" Date: Sun, 15 Jul 2001 19:46:50 -0000 Subject: the_dojang: ITF, WTF Taekwondo and Tang Soo Do I would be interested to hear peoples opinions on the patterns of the respective styles of ITF and WTF Taekwondo and Tang Soo Do. I know that they are different, but how different? Is one set more difficult? Are there any similarities in the patterns? Another question, has anybody on this list transferred from one style to another and had to learn another set of patterns? If so how did you find it? Are there people on this list that cross train and know more than one set of patterns. I must stress that the aim of this post is NOT to start people bickering about any advantages/disadvantages of one style over another, or for people to "put down" or disrespect another art. I am just interested in learning more about the patterns of different styles. With respect, Damian Jones _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. ------------------------------ From: mtomlins@mail.volusia.k12.fl.us Date: Sun, 15 Jul 2001 15:46:19 -0400 Subject: the_dojang: The ongoing ICHF debate I just want to say that when it comes to all of this hooplah with the Pelligrini issue that I don't have any intention of flaming or bashing anyone or anything. God knows I am far from perfect!! The comments I have posted are just facts that I witnessed. If you notice I never put, this is what I heard or someone told me on this message board. Everything I stated is what I saw personally,,, period. Hey you can love it or hate it, all I am saying is here is what I witnessed and you can draw your own conclusions. I have no problem with Mike Rowe and I quite enjoy reading his posts. Michael Tomlinson ******************************************************************************* This email and any files transmitted with it are confidential and intended solely for the use of the individual or entity to whom they are addressed. If you have received this email in error please notify the system manager at administrator@volusia.k12.fl.us. ******************************************************************************* ------------------------------ From: mtomlins@mail.volusia.k12.fl.us Date: Sun, 15 Jul 2001 15:56:16 -0400 Subject: the_dojang: Doju Nim Ji I just want to say that I am glad that Master Nabors talked Doju Nin Ji into coming back to Florida in November!! Now don't get me wrong, Master Nabors is very far from incompetent and he runs a first class dojang and program.. It just isn't everyday you get to watch THE MAN in action... if you haven't worked out with Doju Nim Ji then you are really missing something awesome.. I can't explain to people on here how cool it is. It would be like trying to explain how good pizza is to someone who has never seen it.. impossible. Watching him move and listening to him talk about Hapkido is unbelievable,, come on down to good ole Florida where the weather is hot and the mats get sweaty!!! Michael Tomlinson ******************************************************************************* This email and any files transmitted with it are confidential and intended solely for the use of the individual or entity to whom they are addressed. If you have received this email in error please notify the system manager at administrator@volusia.k12.fl.us. ******************************************************************************* ------------------------------ From: "teepee" Date: Sun, 15 Jul 2001 14:45:18 -0600 Subject: the_dojang: re: kuk sool won v8#409 Rudy sez: The old Kuk Sool had more curriculum, and its forms were done quite different. In fact, they very much resembled some Chinese arts. I believe that some schools still practice things the old way, but WKSA (under GM Suh In Hyuk) has somewhat revamped their version. On the other hand, it may be a deliberate move to make the art more marketable in the US. At least I have heard some comments along that line from various high sources. Whatever the reasons, both versions I have seen are a great way to practice martial arts First paragraph: This is how I see our school's forms as being done like, and not like how I've seen the US students do their patterns. Second paragraph: In several conversations with my instructor about the US version, this explanation has come up. Maybe the 'old' way, being harder on the student, doesn't lend itself to great enrollment retention, but as far as helping instill body discipline, I wouldn't have the art and hyungs be any different. As far as I'm concerned that is one of the main reasons for the hyungs existence in the art. Terry ------------------------------ From: Clothahump Date: Sun, 15 Jul 2001 15:40:54 -0500 Subject: the_dojang: A little more Songahm, anyone? > ------------------------------ > > From: "Sawyer, Mark D., M.D." > Date: Fri, 13 Jul 2001 09:08:26 -0500 > Subject: the_dojang: Songham > > A few comments on Songham... > > Can it truly be said that Songham is a purely Korean martial art? ...snip... Well, in reality, can it be said that XXX is a purely YYYY martial art? With all the crosstraining that's being done, nothing is really a "pure" martial art any more. I recall when I joined the ATA, GM H. U. Lee was adamantly opposed to teaching weapons of any kind. But over the years, he changed his point of view and we started teaching weapons, because the best way to learn to defend against a weapon is to learn how to use it correctly in the first place. A couple of years ago, he said that he had started looking at martial arts training similar to the way that we look at a college education. You have your major - in this case, Taekwondo - but you also have electives and maybe even a minor that support and enhance your major subject. Whether GM Lee was motivated to create a "pure Korean" martial art is really immaterial. Paying homage to Korea's ancient martial arts was certainly a motivating factor, but I really think he was looking to create something that was more dynamic that what was being currently taught, something that would be able to evolve and grow over time. And no one can deny that he was very successful at that! ------------------------------ From: "Carsten Jorgensen" Date: Mon, 16 Jul 2001 04:51:01 +0800 Subject: the_dojang: Re:HwaRangDo Invitation >> its a metaphor for my issue with the current dialogue regarding this particular Hapkido art. << What is Hapkido Bruce? >> The short answer (Frank) is that there is nothing wrong with GM Lee using any name he cares to take responsibility for. The problem that I have is that the current line of reasoning, rationale, explanation seems long on contrivance and short on fact and I believe that use of the name HwaRangDo is a pretty good example of it. << GM Lee was using the Hwarang Do name before Hapkido was used in Korea. Whether you find it likely that a monk could have taught GM Lee martial art in 1942 or not, GM Lee has been using the name for more years that anyone on this list have been training martial arts. I've never thought it was strange that a monk knew martial art, but maybe it's because I've meet a couple in Korea? >> He asked Su-Ahm Dosa to accept the two of us as his students. At the time of our acceptance in 1942 I was 4 years old.ˇ± Ergo: GM Lee was born in 1938.) << 1937, but that's not important. >> GM Lee goes on to relate tha nature of his training and then states ˇ°There were 260 categories with over 4,000 techniques along with 108 traditional weapons broken down into 20 categoreis.....Once we had learned all these skills we were recognized as masters.ˇ± GM Lee then says that in 1948 (6 years of study and now GM Lee is 10 years old) ˇ°my family and Su-ahm Dosa relocated to Seoul ...my brother and I trained with him daily until our family relocated farther south in 1950. << Pretty funny! GM Lee has never said he stopped training under Suam Dosa in 1950, just that he couldn't train daily any more. Both GM Lee and his brother trained continuously until the monk died in 1969. I doubt he would claim he'd mastered all techniques in 1950, but I'll ask next time I see him. >> There are no other references to training with Su-Ahm Dosa after 1950. << Yes, I can see why that very important observation makes it a terrible series of articles. Of course it makes it totally uninteresting that GM Lee is saying things about the Korean MA history in the article that never has been published before. >> GM Lee states that he was teaching in his own school in 1960 (aged 22) << Yes, they were young masters (of course so were all the other people who started schools at that time). I have never meet anyone, who actually meet GM Lee, who has said GM Lee was not 'worthy' of the master title when he opened his school. Have you meet GM Lee or anyone who trained under him/at the same time? >> (In 1960 I was teaching under the HwaRang Mu Sool banner.. ... I changed the name of my school to HwaRangdo and Hapkido.....and Ji, Han Jae switched and founded Sung Mu Kwan Hapkido. << As I've been saying. >> GM Lee does mention training with GM Choi and ˇ°in 1956, my brother and I recieved master-level (rank) in yu sool.... and anyone who trained in Korea between 1960 and 1968 knew I was a Hapkido founder and Hwa Rang Do founder. << Sure, GM Choi is mentioned on page after page. Is there anything here that contradicts what I have been posting? Carsten Jorgensen Copenhagen, Denmark hwarangdo@email.com - -- _______________________________________________ Make PC-to-Phone calls with Net2Phone. Sign-up today at: http://www.net2phone.com/cgi-bin/link.cgi?121 ------------------------------ From: "Carsten Jorgensen" Date: Mon, 16 Jul 2001 04:52:25 +0800 Subject: the_dojang: Re: Hapkido = Hwarang-Do ??? > Hwarang Do dropped all affiliations with the generic term Hapkido more than 30 years ago... Ray: >> Too many seem to think that just saying something makes it so. << Am I just wasting my time here? Do give me one example on Hwarang Do's affiliation with 'Hapkido' since 1968. It's really very simple, is Hwarang Do the same as Yawara? No. Is Hwarang Do the same as GM Ji's style? No, and the styles were different from the beginning. Again, the usual counter post to this is "I've read GM Lee’s books, and my granduncle have seen a Hwarang Do demonstration, it looked like 'Hapkido' ". Now I don't care anymore, the Hwarang Do videos should be out and people can see for themselves if it's the same thing if they care. Carsten Jorgensen Copenhagen, Denmark hwarangdo@email.com - -- _______________________________________________ Make PC-to-Phone calls with Net2Phone. Sign-up today at: http://www.net2phone.com/cgi-bin/link.cgi?121 ------------------------------ From: Ray Terry Date: Sun, 15 Jul 2001 15:10:45 PDT Subject: Re: the_dojang: Re: Hapkido = Hwarang-Do ??? > What is Hapkido? The Way of Coordinated Power. > GM Lee has been using the name for more years that anyone on this list > have been training martial arts. The name Hwarangdo? I thought GM Lee first used that name in 1960? Even a young good looking lad such as myself goes back to the 1960s (but not 1960), but I suspect that a few go back to the 1950s. One reader goes back to the mid-1930s. > Do give me one example on Hwarang Do's affiliation with 'Hapkido' since > 1968. Ok. Let us assume that is the case. Just what does that prove? The Tangsoodo/Kongsoodo/Taesoodo/Soobahkdo/Taekwondo Kwans have not been 'affiliated' with Japanese Karate-do since the 1940s, far longer than GM Lee's claims of non-affiliation. Yet there is a direct link and a direct affiliation, however inactive it is today. Or does TKD's desire to 'drop all affiliation' just make it so.?.? > the Hwarang Do videos should be out and people can see for themselves if > it's the same thing if they care. Great! Sounds like an excellent challenge. But (I just checked out www.hwarangdo.com) 23 videos at $50 a each. Lets see, 23 times 5 times 10 is !#$!?! :) Can you narrow it down just a wee bit? Recommend two or three videos in the set where you think I'll see a significant difference in physical technique between GM Lee's HwaRangDo and Hapkido and I'll spend my $$ in hopes of finally settling this (at least in my mind). Ray Terry raymail@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com ------------------------------ From: "Dizzy S." Date: Sun, 15 Jul 2001 20:08:05 -0400 Subject: the_dojang: Bruce, good idea/My idea for a new thread Hiya all. I just wanna say that I have to agree with Bruce. The bickering is getting to be too much. I'd like to add a fourth to Bruce's list. Pitching a bitch about who's art is better and who's art isn't is bad. I think we should quit the "bad comparing" and start "good comparing" as Bruce put it. Help each other out, not put each other (or art) down. Nobody's art is better than the next. You get out of it what you put into it. If you train hard, you'll be an awsome martial artist. If you are lazy when you train, you'll be a crappy martial artist. That's what it comes down to. It's not the art, it's the person learning the art. If someone makes a new art, who cares. As long as it's effective and the creator is an awsome martial artist. And there's an old saying, "Don't knock it till you try it." That phrase speaks for itself :o) I like to hear why each of you started training in the first place and how it changed you and why. What you like about it and why. And anything else you'd like to throw in there (maybe a cool story about your experience in MA). I'm looking forward to hearing your stories :o) Tang Soo! Dizzy 6th gup TSD www.imahq.net _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com ------------------------------ From: "Prince Loeffler" Date: Sun, 15 Jul 2001 17:01:04 -0700 Subject: the_dojang: Special Thanks Just a brief mail to thank Master Timmerman, Maureen Panganiban and Of course our gracious net host Ray Terry for assisting me locate respectable schools in the San Francisco Area.....I encourage her to check each one and sit in and observe. I will let you all know which one she will be attending. Thank you Again P. Loeffler ------------------------------ From: Ray Terry Date: Sun, 15 Jul 2001 18:15:44 PDT Subject: the_dojang: . ------------------------------ End of The_Dojang-Digest V8 #411 ******************************** It's a great day for Taekwondo! Support the USTU by joining today. US Taekwondo Union, 1 Olympic Plaza, Ste 104C, Colorado Spgs, CO 80909 719-578-4632 FAX 719-578-4642 ustutkd1@aol.com http://www.ustu.org To unsubscribe from the_dojang-digest send the command: unsubscribe the_dojang-digest -or- unsubscribe the_dojang-digest your.old@address in the BODY (top line, left justified) of a "plain text" e-mail addressed to majordomo@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com. Old digest issues are available via ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com. Copyright 1994-2001: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource Standard disclaimers apply.