From: the_dojang-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com To: the_dojang-digest@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Subject: The_Dojang-Digest V8 #412 Reply-To: the_dojang@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Errors-To: the_dojang-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Precedence: The_Dojang-Digest Mon, 16 July 2001 Vol 08 : Num 412 In this issue: the_dojang: Re: The_Dojang-Digest V8 #411 the_dojang: Re: The_Dojang-Digest V8 #411 the_dojang: RE: The_Dojang-Digest V8 #411 the_dojang: Re: The_Dojang-Digest V8 #411 the_dojang: Martial Arts Masters World Federation the_dojang: Titles/Expert the_dojang: small circles Re: the_dojang: Titles/Expert Re: the_dojang: small circles the_dojang: KSW the_dojang: Use of the word "player" the_dojang: Re: New thread the_dojang: Re: Patterns the_dojang: RE: The_Dojang-Digest V8 #411 the_dojang: The evolution of personal skill the_dojang: Re: Choi Jung Hwa, ? for Robert the_dojang: RE: What is Hapkido? the_dojang: RE: HwaRangDo stuff the_dojang: . ========================================================================= The_Dojang, serving the Internet since June 1994. ~1111 members strong! Copyright 1994-2001: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource The premier internet discussion forum devoted to the Korean Martial Arts. Replying to this message will NOT unsubscribe you. To unsubscribe, send "unsubscribe the_dojang-digest" (no quotes) in the body (top line, left justified) of a "plain text" e-mail addressed to majordomo@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com. To send e-mail to this list use the_dojang@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com See the Korean Martial Arts (KMA) FAQ and the online search engine for back issues of The_Dojang at http://www.MartialArtsResource.com Pil Seung! ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Clifford Vaught" Date: Mon, 16 Jul 2001 01:26:06 Subject: the_dojang: Re: The_Dojang-Digest V8 #411 When I Hear Master H.C. Hwang talk about his father GM Hwang Kee, he calls him Kwan Jang Nim, not Kwan Jang. Soo Bahk!! Cliff Vaught From: "Master Frank Clay" Date: Sun, 15 Jul 2001 12:43:04 -0400 Subject: the_dojang: RE: The_Dojang-Digest V8 #410 Mr Seo, No disrespect regarding titles was intended. It was my humble understanding that the suffix "Nim" is not written in Korean but is spken. My attempt was to show deference to someone who is clearly my senior in the martial arts, although i disagreed with what was written. Further, it was m understanding that in person, I should actually call him Chun Kwanjang (nim). Nothing more. Frank _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com ------------------------------ From: "Clifford Vaught" Date: Mon, 16 Jul 2001 01:36:50 Subject: the_dojang: Re: The_Dojang-Digest V8 #411 Damian, Appreciate the spirit of your post. I'm a SOo Bahk DO MOo Kuk Kwan practitioner. Tang Soo Do was the original name of the style prior to KJN Hwang Kee changing it in 1960 - as some background. The "patterns" - by that I assume you mean forms or hyungs - are very different between TSD/SBD and the 2 different TKD organizations. Aside from those 2 organizations, there is another group I believe would be properly called TKD Moo Duk Kwan, such as Master James Roberts in Springfield, VA (www.robertskarate.com). What I can tell you is that the forms are so different that we had a visiting 3rd Dan train with my SBD MDK school in Chesapeake, VA, because he'd been told at the resident TKD schools they didn't want him there. He knew Moo Duk Kwan forms. So the real comparison may only be between ITF and WTF forms. Soo Bahk!! Cliff Vaught - ------------------------------ From: "Damian Jones" Date: Sun, 15 Jul 2001 19:46:50 -0000 Subject: the_dojang: ITF, WTF Taekwondo and Tang Soo Do I would be interested to hear peoples opinions on the patterns of the respective styles of ITF and WTF Taekwondo and Tang Soo Do. I know that they are different, but how different? Is one set more difficult? Are there any similarities in the patterns? Another question, has anybody on this list transferred from one style to another and had to learn another set of patterns? If so how did you find it? Are there people on this list that cross train and know more than one set of patterns. I must stress that the aim of this post is NOT to start people bickering about any advantages/disadvantages of one style over another, or for people to "put down" or disrespect another art. I am just interested in learning more about the patterns of different styles. With respect, Damian Jones _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com ------------------------------ From: "Master Frank Clay" Date: Sun, 15 Jul 2001 21:37:07 -0400 Subject: the_dojang: RE: The_Dojang-Digest V8 #411 Ray, I think that the videos are available through panther much cheaper.. specillay if you distribute or grab one of their coupons. Frank ------------------------------ From: "Clifford Vaught" Date: Mon, 16 Jul 2001 01:49:11 Subject: the_dojang: Re: The_Dojang-Digest V8 #411 Spunky, I'd say those are some serious allegations both against the fledgling instructor and the one that promoted him. Don't know your level and clearly your expectations are high. Cho Dan - 1st Degree - in the way of thinking I've been taught in Soo Bahk Do Moo Duk Kwan, means that you are a "beginning expert". In a system that has 7 degrees and requires 27 years to get to that 7th Dan level upon reaching Cho Dan, the understanding is that you are just beginning your real education. It's grad school. And this after taking no less than 4 years just to test for Cho Dan, provided you failed no tests on the way. It seems you believe that the Cho Dan level means you know it all. I think you're just starting to learn. It takes about a hear to really appreciate what you've accomplished in the first place. In the International TSD Federation (GM C.S. Kim) there was a 1st Gup (Red Belt) that owned and ran a school in Maryland. He was clearly no expert in the art of Tang Soo Do, but he was certainly qualified to teach under his level. YOu really don't begin to learn until you start to teach. In SBD MDK, and I believe in all the major TSD organizations, there is another testing required for Kyo Sa and Sa Bom, the titles of certified instructors. You can run a school without it temporarily, operating under your instructors certification, but eventually you must pass your test for instructing. Don't know if TKD does this. Maybe that is what you really want to see. Soo Bahk!! Cliff Vaught From: FGS & KVF Date: Sun, 15 Jul 2001 10:46:23 -0700 Subject: the_dojang: BBs and skills and teaching I know we have had this discussion b4 about what is a BB and how important are the physical skills to the requirements, but a recent event has brought it to my attention again. In my first dojang, the instructor was adamant re: skills and teaching requirements. He felt that the certificate indicated his and Kukkiwon's acknowledgement of the student's prowess as a BB. This meant that he/she could go on to teach or own a school somewhere with the BB. Altho, my instructor did not think 1st degrees should be owning schools. However, he knew he did not have control over everyone, so he insured that the students at his school were proficient at the skills and teaching them. Now, the new dojang I am at is not like this. While the instructor-owner is very good, he tends to promote students quicker than their skills would indicate. Recently, we had a new BB promote. This BB is about the skill level of an intermediate, and can't teach either. However, while a very nice person, who is thrilled and letting everyone know he is now a BB, he really isn't at that level and I find this sad and bad for the art itself. Mostly, I find it bad for the students he will teach. He has discussed opening up a school somewhere else to teach with his kids. He can do this, but what will be passed on to potential students. I was in the first class that he attempted to teach, and I must say it was not a very good class. Now of course he will improve with time, but I don't go to his classes b/c I want to improve and the classes are neither challenging physically nor mentally. That is my fear and my original thot when I contributed to the BB discussion many moons ago. I think it is important that BBs are good physically and mentally, and we do a disservice to them and future students if we don't insist on good skills. I know everyone has their own skill level and some BBs will be awesome and others just good, but as long as they know their skills and can pass them on correctly, they will be ok as BBs. Oh, and to be fair to the instructor he is not money grubbing, he just doesn't seem to be able to say no to the students who want to promote quickly b/c he needs to make a living and he doesn't want to lose students from impatience with the time factor. Spunky _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com ------------------------------ From: RDNHJMS@aol.com Date: Sun, 15 Jul 2001 21:56:08 EDT Subject: the_dojang: Martial Arts Masters World Federation It must be time for god to call me home to heavan for I have surely seen it all. Check this out: http://mamwf.com/ Anyone on the list affiliated with these guys. I would visit them, since they are apparently located just across Tampa Bay in Dunedin. But they appear to only operate out of a post office box. No phone number except for the fax number where you can send in you credit card number and get both a PhD and your 10th Dan in Ugidi Bugidi Do. I should sue. I'm the true founder and 20th Dan of Ugidi Bugidi Do. I leaned in from a monk nobody else ever saw or heard of in the mountains nobody can find during a time that even I can't remember. Now, on the lighter side of things......... V/R, Rick Nabors ------------------------------ From: Steve Seo Date: Sun, 15 Jul 2001 19:23:22 -0700 (PDT) Subject: the_dojang: Titles/Expert Master Clay, I understand your position on someone claiming to be the single expert. However, I don't think that argument applies here. I don't think Chairman Seo nor I believe he is the single authority on all of Korean Martial Arts. Instead, the point of the letter and banquet is to celebrate Chairman's contribution to the Korean Martial Arts and acknowledge his status in the Korean Martial Arts. This is in conjunction with an open seminar in Los Angeles the Weekend of September 8th and 9th given by Chairman Seo. I invite all list members to attend. Contact the Kidohae office for more information. contact: email- websabum@kidohae.com or call 510-796-4115 Mr Redfield and Master Clay, The use of titles in Korean can be used with the suffix nim attached to denote honorific meaning. The time you wouldn't use it is to refer to yourself as Kwan Jangnim. I would refer to myself as Seo Sabum. In terms of the mail/email usuage, you would still use nim if you choose to use the Kwan Jang title. 1. Kwang Jangnim Bernard, (body of text) 2. Kwang Jangnim Bernard address phone number etc. Sir, (body of text I suppose writing Kwang Jangnim Bernard Sir could be seen as slightly redundant. Steve Seo __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get personalized email addresses from Yahoo! Mail http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/ ------------------------------ From: TNTcombatives@aol.com Date: Sun, 15 Jul 2001 23:23:30 EDT Subject: the_dojang: small circles Greetings All, I had the pleasure(?!) of spending time over the past couple years in classes taught by Prof.Jay, as well as one of his highest ranking instructors, Prof.Eichelburger(sp). The time is so special, because Prof. Jay's time on this earth will soon be at an end (I think he is over 81 or so). Although he is the creator of small cirlce JJ, he does use big circles too. It is the small ones that are included in the big ones that cause the pain. For example, in a major hip throw, how you grab, and the small circles as you twist or turn your hands creates different unbalance/pain etc. The finger holds and pain compliance techniques SCJJ has are incredible. It is even better when the master decides to use you as a test subject. It is incredible that this octogenarian can grab my 200 pound bag of bones, and toss me like a sack of worthless potatoes! Prof. Jay throws hard, and got down to groundfight me...I was sort of helpless. I knew deep down that I could take this old man....just as soon as the pain he was causing me went away..lol. From what I have experienced of SCJJ, it is very effective, and includes the same stuff as most of the Kodokan & Danzanryr JJ systems. I am fortunate to have been caused pain by the master. I wish everyone the same experience. Mark Gajdostik ------------------------------ From: Ray Terry Date: Sun, 15 Jul 2001 21:02:26 PDT Subject: Re: the_dojang: Titles/Expert Does a Korean use -nim as a Japanese uses -san? i.e. in business communications the Japanese address me as Terry-san and I address them as lastname-san. But I haven't been doing that w/nim for my business contacts with Korea. Should I? Ray Terry raymail@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com ------------------------------ From: Ray Terry Date: Sun, 15 Jul 2001 21:03:58 PDT Subject: Re: the_dojang: small circles > From what I have experienced of SCJJ, it is very effective, and includes > the same stuff as most of the Kodokan & Danzanryr JJ systems. He came up in GM Okazaki's Danzan-Ryu, yes? Ray Terry raymail@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com ------------------------------ From: "Rudy Timmerman" Date: Sun, 15 Jul 2001 12:49:17 -0400 Subject: the_dojang: KSW Terry writes: > Maybe the 'old' way, being harder on the student, doesn't lend itself to > great enrollment retention, but as far as helping instill body discipline, Hello Terry: Dakin Burdick calls this Front room/Backroom training. A school (not a club without overhead) MUST have enough students to pay the bills. If not, there won't be a place for the harder training to take place. Simple economics, and a pain in the behind. > I wouldn't have the art and hyungs be any different. As far as I'm concerned > that is one of the main reasons for the hyungs existence in the art. As far as Hyung is concerned. I too use them as a tool. Why do calesthenics when we have a perfect way to practice "sport specific" exercises. Properly used, hyung can be an enormous asset in training. Sincerely, Rudy ------------------------------ From: jdoyle@comtech.com.au Date: Mon, 16 Jul 2001 15:05:11 +1000 Subject: the_dojang: Use of the word "player" At a TKD / WTF referees course (I attend one recently), we were told that WTF now calls fighters "players" and we were asked to call the participants that at all times. When I asked why, there was no "official" answer, but it was generally regarded that this was more for PR (for the press and non MA aware public) than anything else. Slainte /J ****************************************************************************** - - NOTICE - This message is confidential, and may contain proprietary or legally privileged information. If you have received this email in error, please notify the sender and delete it immediately. Internet communications are not secure. You should scan this message and any attachments for viruses. Under no circumstances do we accept liability for any loss or damage which may result from your receipt of this message or any attachments. ****************************************************************************** ------------------------------ From: Piotr Bernat Date: Mon, 16 Jul 2001 08:01:08 +0200 Subject: the_dojang: Re: New thread > I like to hear why each of you started training in the first place and how > it changed you and why. What you like about it and why. And anything else > you'd like to throw in there (maybe a cool story about your experience in > MA). Being one of the smallest and definitely the weakest kid in class I simply wanted to do something that no one else did. Plus, learning how to fight was an important factor ;) You know, the old Karate Kid scenario with bad Cobra Kai dudes. My parents told me that they allowed me to do Taekwondo because they were sure that I will quit after two weeks. And they admitted that 14 years later... :)))) How did it change me? Hard to say. I think the people that know me could tell you more. One thing is for sure - if I could live my life in martial arts again, I wouldn`t change a single day. All experiences, good and bad ones, were something that made my life better, more interesting, more challenging. And seeing my first students promoted to black belts was worth it all. What I like most about martial arts are all the wonderful people I met. All the instructors, masters, grandmasters, but also my classmates and my students. Everybody of them taught me something. I had the opportunity to meet some great martial artists - a dream of a boy who once started taking TKD classes. But I also met some ordinary people that are not on the covers of martial arts magazines, yet they are great martial artists. I was fortunate to met people who were willing to share their knowledge. And then, I was fortunate to have some greatest students I could imagine. Yes, they make me upset sometimes. Yes, they are not perfect human beings. There are moments when one wants to kill some of them with bare hands ;) But at the end of the day, we all come back friends, and some good memories are worth all the bad ones. We are all part of a team, a family of martial arts. What I really like about my students is the fact that I taught them some of the same principles. They compete under different rules. They participate in different seminars. Some of them even visit other schools and take part e.g. in Judo classes, but they always come back. This has taught them to respect other styles of martial arts, and that can only be good for them. Regards - -- Piotr Bernat dantaekwondo@lublin.home.pl http://www.taekwondo.prv.pl ------------------------------ From: Piotr Bernat Date: Mon, 16 Jul 2001 07:35:30 +0200 Subject: the_dojang: Re: Patterns > I would be interested to hear peoples opinions on the patterns of the > respective styles of ITF and WTF Taekwondo and Tang Soo Do. > > I know that they are different, but how different? Is one set more > difficult? Are there any similarities in the patterns? Yes, they are quite different. As for the moves, the best idea would be to see some video, since it`s really hard to describe. The WTF set seems to be the least complicated of the three (but it doesn`t really mean that it is very simple to learn ;). > > Another question, has anybody on this list transferred from one style to > another and had to learn another set of patterns? If so how did you find > it? Are there people on this list that cross train and know more than one > set of patterns. When I started in WTF TKD, the Palgwe poomse were the official patterns. After 4 years our school closed and I joined an ITF school where I had to learn the Chang Hun (ITF, Chon-ji) set. After I opened my own school I got back to the WTF, but the Palgwes were no longer recognized, so I had to learn the Taeguk poomse. Nowadays, I do both Taegeuk + WTF black belt patterns and ITF patterns, the latter just for fun. I`m also probably the only person here who competed in both in the same year :) Regards - -- Piotr Bernat dantaekwondo@lublin.home.pl http://www.taekwondo.prv.pl ------------------------------ From: Bruce.Sims@med.va.gov Date: Mon, 16 Jul 2001 08:32:30 -0500 Subject: the_dojang: RE: The_Dojang-Digest V8 #411 . I think we should quit the "bad comparing" and start "good comparing ..." Thanks Dizzy: But now I am going to coat-tail back off of your comment by affirming what Ray asked of Carsten. I think this would be a great place to press a better use of this venue. I, too, would like to know if there is one or two tapes of the HwaRangDo tradition that I could bang up against the YonMu Kwan Hapkido tapes I have from GM Myung, or the KHF tapes I have from Dr. Hackworth for a comparitive analysis of the biomechanics. I will add that, except for organization, I have found only what I would term "cosmetic" differences so far between the WHF and the KHF tape material. Comments? Best Wishes, Bruce > Standard disclaimers apply. ------------------------------ From: "Anthony or Clare Boyd" Date: Mon, 16 Jul 2001 20:35:12 +0900 Subject: the_dojang: The evolution of personal skill I'd like to contribute to the golden age of bicker-free posting (in outright denial of base human nature). I hope my question is one of those that catch the attention and prompt replies because I'm really curious what people think about this... In my own martial arts pursuits I have reached a point where what I am learning now is radically different from what went before. It's like learning a whole new set of skills as a white belt in the art would with the difference that you have a more refined filter through which to perceive the new material. All of these new skills and approaches to movement are making an impact in how I approach the older material and a synthesis is taking place. This is pleasant and I enjoy discovering the evolution of my skills. However, my instructor seems to be trying to guide me toward a more static performance of older material. Let me provide an example dealing mainly with forms: **: As a white belt you have to concentrate on each step, stance, strike, defense, etc. As this process ensues you have less time to devote to thinking about things like tactics. As a black belt, stances and mechanics of strikes and defenses are second nature which frees up more time to ponder things like tactics. Now, when performing that white belt form as a black belt you have choices that you didn't have before. You can adjust motions that are too slow, too wide, etc. to be more in harmony with your view of combative reality. As a white belt you had to struggle to complete the form correctly. As a black belt you have options on how to complete the form. ** So, should you act upon your ability to choose? Should you adjust the form to reflect your new level of understanding or should you complete each form or technique with your utmost precision and control, exactly as it was taught to you? Should you choose one in the privacy of the empty dojang but the other in the presence of your instructor? That's my question. Thanks for the opportunity to present it. Anthony Boyd Got Sword? http://welcome.to/haidonggumdo ------------------------------ From: JSaportajr@aol.com Date: Mon, 16 Jul 2001 08:05:38 EDT Subject: the_dojang: Re: Choi Jung Hwa, ? for Robert In a message dated 7/15/2001 8:50:07 PM Eastern Daylight Time, the_dojang-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com writes: << This poor man had a very difficult life. Some of it was just being the son of a high ranking military officer. But think on this -- General Choi was willing to sacrifice his children for Taekwon-Do. How would you feel in that situation? >> Robert Thanks for your post, I agree. Your statement above intrigued me. Could you elaborate further on how he had a difficult life and how General Choi was willing to sacrifice his children. Thanks, Jose ------------------------------ From: Bruce.Sims@med.va.gov Date: Mon, 16 Jul 2001 07:41:13 -0500 Subject: the_dojang: RE: What is Hapkido? Dear Carsten: Here is the re-post I mentioned. Hapkido ("Way of Coordinated Power") identifies a Korean method of combat utilizing hand strikes, kicks, joint-locks, throws, restraints and chokes. In its most specific use the term Hapkido identifies that art transmitted to Han Jae Ji by Yong Sul Choi between 1953 and 1957. In a broader sense, though, the term Hapkido has also come to identify Korean martial arts which incorporate both strikes and grappling according to the three guiding principles of Hapkido, and derive from, or are heavily influenced by, the Japanese martial art Daito-ryu aiki-jujitsu. Into this category fall a wide range of organizations (kwans) including, but not limited to, Mu Sul Kwan, Yon Mu Kwan, Hapki Yu Sool, and Jung Ki Kwan. There are also various federations and associations the most notable of which are the World Kido Federation, the International Hapkido Federation and the Korean Hapkido Association. In its widest usage Hapkido also identifies organizations and arts which seek a greater representation of the Korean Martial tradition. These organizations' heritage may derive in some part from either the teachings of Yong Sul Choi, or his students. However, the way the body is used in these arts may, as much, reflect the strong Chinese and Buddhist heritage of the Korean culture. This category includes the arts of Kuk Sool Won, HanMuDo, Hwarangdo, Han Pul, Mu Yei 24 Ban, as well as the martial training practices of the Sun Monasteries. The modern art we know as Hapkido is the product of more than 2000 years of martial tradition which can be subdivided into 5 major cultural infusions and many lesser cultural influences. The first of these are the ancient tribal techniques (Sado Mu Sool) which are thought to have incorporated combat techniques best accomplished from horseback and would have included archery, lance, stone sword and knife as well as the brand of wrestling common to across most of central Asia. Practiced by the migrating tribes of the steppes of northeastern Asia, these martial skills formed the foundation for Korean martial tradition. The Second and Third Infusions to Hapkido were the introduction of Buddhist and Confucian belief systems to Korean culture as well as the attendant martial and administrative traditions from China during the 4th and 5th century. The introduction of Buddhist beliefs is reflected in the establishment of various codes which were established to guide the warriors' efforts in meeting his responsibilities to his community and country. Buddhist tradition pressed an accomplished warrior to submit to a code based on patriotism (Ch'ung), filial piety, (Hyo), fraternity (Shin) Justice (Yong) and Benevolence (Im). In this way the role of Buddhist thought for the Korean warrior was not unlike that of the Christian church in Western Europe with the development of Chivalry. From a fighting sense the addition of a code to the warrior's training helped to dissuade the warrior from misusing his skill by abusing members of his family and community. The Confucian system, for its part, advocated a reverence for governmental authority and supported this through a hierarchy of levels, examinations, and offices. Such a strict hierarchical system readily lent itself to affirming the rigid class system comprised of the aristocracy, bureaucracy, farmers and slaves as well as the supremacy of the king. In a manner of speaking, then, if Buddhism indicated to the warrior what he was not to do and whom he was not to act against, Confucianism indicated the proper focus for the warriors' skills in terms of government and superior authority. In addition to their respective religious and administrative influences, Buddhism and Confucianism were also avenues for the introduction of many cultural and martial traditions from the Chinese culture. Among these contributions are varieties of weapons and martial skills, strategies, tactics and order of battle, history, science, medicine and literature. These twin forces guided and supported Korean martial tradition but also contributed to it's decline as well. As much as we might think well of the influence of the Buddhist faith, its power and influence in the Korean government soon was seen as a threat to the kings' ruling authority. The decline of the influence of Buddhism left an opportunity for Confucianism to make its influence felt. With steady support from various factions throughout the Yi dynasty (1390 to 1910) military tradition in Korean was seen as little more than a necessary evil which was continually minimized at every turn. Even those occasions which required a military defense such as the Japanese Invasion of 1592 by Toyotomi was not enough to stop the decline. The occupation by the Japanese in 1910 finally brought the Yi dynasty to an end. Initially more bureaucratic, the Japanese occupation experienced steadily growing resistance by the Korean people until harsh repressive measures were instituted in the 1930-s by the Japanese that outlawed nearly the whole of Korean culture and demanded the adoption of Japanese cultural counterparts. Japanese nationals were brought to Korea to dominate the agricultural and industrial base of that country and bringing with them such martial art traditions as Judo, jujitsu, Karate, Aikido, Kendo and Kyudo. Korean nationals were relocated to Japan to service the needs of the Japanese industry, farming and domestic service. The Fourth infusion to the Korean martial tradition is best represented in the personal experiences of Yong Sul Choi whose teachings subsequently set the foundation for much of modern Hapkido. At the age of 8, Choi was reportedly taken to Japan from Korea, later abandoned and subsequently taken into the household of Sokaku Takeda, teacher of Daito-ryu Aiki-jujitsu. Choi states that he remained in Takedas' employ for some thirty years, before being repatriated to Korea at the end of the Second World War. To date, no documentation has been found to support Choi's statements regarding either his residence with the Takeda family, or his instruction in the art of Daito-ryu. However, it remains that Choi along with a very limited number of other Korean nationals such as Mok Jang In, and General Hong Hi Choi returned to Korea to add the martial skills they had experienced in Japan to those arts of the Korean culture as had survived, or had been introduced from Japan by the occupation. In 1948 Choi began teaching his art, yu sool, to Bok-sub Suh a Yudo black belt and president of a brewery. The name "yu sool" itself suggests that the arts' techniques included joint locks and throws. However, following an incident in 1954 in which Choi's student Suh used a sidekick in an altercation, the name was changed to "yu kwon sool", indicating that the art utilized kicks and punches as well. As a student Han Jae Ji had begun to train with Choi in 1953. Working with the head instructor of the school, Woo-woong Kim, Ji had begun to organize the kicking repertoire that would be identified with yu kwon sool. This introduction of various kicking techniques by Won-woong Kim and Han Jae Ji to the yu sool curriculum constitutes the Fifth and latest infusion of techniques. As with the martial sport of TaeKwonDo, the source for this kicking material was the historic national past-time of taek kyon and su bahk both kicking arts of long standing in the Korean culture. On beginning his own school in 1957 as a 3rd degree Black Belt, Ji is attributed with changing the name of the art to its present form, "hapki do" from "hapki yu sool." In this way, Ji is thought to have emphasized Hapkido as a "do" or "way of living" rather than merely a collection of techniques ("sool"). In this way, whatever principals may be examined on a physical plane such as motion, balance, leverage, timing and focus may also be regarded on an intellectual, emotional and spiritual plane as well. The result is that the art of Hapkido is as much a method of character development as a martial endeavor. Many Hapkido practitioners can trace their instruction back to Ji,or to Yong Sul Choi through Ji. Among the most notable personalities who have trained with Choi directly, or with Choi through Ji are Joo Bang Lee (HwaRangDo), Jae-nam Myung (International Hapkido Federation), Kwang Sik Myung (World Hapkido Federation), and Bong Soo Han (International Hapkido Federation). The members and cadre that descend from these lines support to Ji's reputation as the "father of modern Hapkido." There are also large networks of contemporaries to Ji who have sought to introduce innovation to the Hapkido teaching each in their own way. These include In Hyuk Suh (Kuk Sool Won), Kwan-wha Won (Moo Sool Kwan) and Hyun Su Lim (Jung Ki Kwan). In examining Daito-ryu, Hapkido and Aikido, another Daito ryu derivation, it is not surprising that one is able identify a number of similarities. All three arts support practice in both unarmed techniques as well as the use of weapons. Though curriculums vary from organization to organization, all three arts hold to the position that techniques remain biomechanically the same whether a weapon is incorporated into the movements or not. The weapons themselves continue to reflect a certain consistency in biomechanics, despite cultural variations. The Japanese iron fan or iron truncheon (jutte) is represented in Korean by the short stick, or dan bong. The Korean cane approximates the Japanese jo, or stick.. Sword, knife and staff techniques are often comparable in either Japanese or Korean culture though the Korean biomechanics more often bespeak their Chinese influences in circular rather than linear motion. To a lesser degree Hapkido practitioners continue to incorporate rope or belt techniques as well as the larger Chinese fans on occasion A second connection among Daito-ryu aiki-jujitsu, Hapkido and Aikido are their operation under of the same three principles whether on the physical, intellectual, emotional or spiritual plane. These are the Water Principle, Point and Circle Principle and Economy of Energy Principle. The Water Principle bespeaks adaptation to circumstances and a readiness to adjust an action or response with ease. Sometimes characterized as "tenacity" or "relentless" for the penetrating qualities of the liquid, the Water Principle is better represented by the manner in which water adapts to the shape of the container that holds it. In this way the Hapkido practitioner accepts whatever is given them to work with and makes the most of it. The Point and Circle Principle acknowledges that "all things are a cycle" and as such can be much easier to understand in cause and effect. A punch, thrown, does not remain extended, but is "recycled" to become perhaps a block, another strike or a grab. The same can be said for a kick, or a throw, perhaps walking, eating-in fact any activity. Actions occur and are recycled to become other actions as thoughts recycle to become other thoughts. In combat application, the interception and management of an attack is open to a greater number of options along the track of an arc rather than a straight line. An appreciation of the cyclical nature of events also allows for anticipation according to a variety of options and an execution of a particular option in a tangential rather than confrontive manner. The Economy of Motion Principle encourages the practitioner to identify the most efficient, least wasteful way of accomplishing ones' goals, and admonishes the student to avoid "working harder than ones' opponent" In this way, whatever is learned is under constant pressure to be done more accurately, efficiently and effectively. In this way a Hapkido practitioner learns to "work smarter, not harder" in dealing with conflicts. A third connection among Daito-ryu, Hapkido and Aikido is their reliance on a subtle hierarchy of sophistication which guides the practitioner to identify increasing levels of efficiency and effectiveness in their arts. For the Japanese arts the first level of expertise is identified as gentle technique (ju jitsu) which is approximated as 'soft technique" (yu sool) in the Korean tradition. Essentially an art based on strength; leverage and speed this level of expertise often includes a degree of pain compliance for the successful execution of the technique. Though the least sophisticated of the three levels, this skill level is perhaps the most widely exhibited among Hapkido practitioners and contributes to its reputation as a no-nonsense form of self-defense. The second level of sophistication is identified in the Daito-ryu tradition as aiki-jujitsu or "hapki yu sool" in the Korean tradition. Aikido for its part speaks of "blending" with ones' partner. All three states indicate the ability to use the nature of the attackers' own physical structure against them. Disrupting the attackers' foundation, balance. direction, timing or focus allows for the defender to optimize his assets in a confrontation with an individual of greater size or ability. Well-known among Aikido and Daito-ryu practitioners, this level is less well-known in the Hapkido community with the exception perhaps of the practitioners in Korea itself. The highest level of expertise is designated "aiki-jitsu" (lit: "spirit techniques") and is the subject of much debate within both the Aikido and Daito-ryu aiki-jujitsu community. This level of training allows the practitioner to exploit the biomechanical responses of the attackers' own body against him such as "conditioned responses," and "reflexes". In such cases the defender, then, is able not only to engage the enemy, unbalance them and use their strength against them, but incorporate the volition of the partners' own action in defeating the attack as well.There are plenty of people who like to attribute this sort of technique to some sort of cosmic forces, but the fact is, it is only sound training practices done over and over again that produce this sort of "magic". The organization of a typical Hapkido school reflects many of the accepted organizational practices common to most martial arts in both Korea and Japan. A director (kwang jang nin) attends to the managing affairs of the school while an instructor (sabunim) oversees regular instruction. Nearly all Hapkido organizations have adopted a hierarchy of ascending student (guep) ranks numbering ten through one and usually assign a belt color to indicate rank. Individuals committed to continued study, following completion of the student ranks, are assigned a rank of one through seven indicating various levels of competence and designated by a black belt. Ranks eight, nine and ten are essentially administrative positions. Consistent with the use of a Confucian educational model, criteria for advancement, testing policies, certification and licensure vary greatly from organization to organization and are regularly a source of negotiation and discussion in the Hapkido community regarding significance and relative merit. The art itself is an extraordinary inter-relationship among kicks, strikes, throws, joint-locks, chokes and projections all of which abide by the three principles of Hapkido. Though occassionally practitioners of the art will participate in competitions, the art of Hapkido, itself is not competitive. It is easy to see that for an art whose intent is to stop the fight, asking a practitioner to participate in a competition designed to extend a confrontation for even a few rounds does not make a lot of sense. Instead, Hapkido practitioners honor the Korean martial tradition that asks the warrior to serve his country, his family and his community by only coming out of the best part of himself to further the good of everyone. Kim, S.H (2000) The Comprehensive Illustrated Manual of Martial arts of Ancient Korea, Turtle Press, Hartford, Ct. Kimm, H.Y. (1991) Hapkido, Andrew Jackson College Press, Baton Rouge, La. Lee, J.B. (1979) The Ancient Martial Art of HwaRangDo (Vol. 1-3), Ohara Publications, Burbank, Ca. Lee, K.B. (1984) A New History of Korea, Havaard University Pree, Cambridge, Ma. Lee, P.H. (1993) Sources of Korean Civilization - Vol 1&2, Columbia University Press, New York Myung, K.S. (1982) Hapkido - Ancient Art of Masters, World Hapkido Federation, Seoul, Korea Omiya, S (1992) The Hidden Roots of Aikido, Kodansha International Ltd, Tokyo, Japan Suh, I.H. (1987) Kuk Sool Yang, J.M. (1992) Analysis of Shaolin Chin Na, YMAA Publication Center, Jamaica Plains, Ma. ------------------------------ From: Bruce.Sims@med.va.gov Date: Mon, 16 Jul 2001 08:24:09 -0500 Subject: the_dojang: RE: HwaRangDo stuff Dear Carsten: We may be expereincing a bit of bandwidth drift here but maybe this is the time to reframe just exactly where we are with this. I would like to start with your response concerning "...GM Lee was using the Hwarang Do name before Hapkido was used in Korea.." This is a statement which cannot be proved one way or another as the authority resides with the individuals who elected to coin the terms involved unless you can produce a dated business license bearing the respective use of the arts. GM Lee states that he was teaching in his own school under the Hwa Rang Banner in 1960. GM Ji is identified as using the term "Hapkido" in beginning his school in 1963. Both gentlemen are known to have trained under GM Choi who is a known Korean MA personality. Only GM Lee states that he has trained under Su-Ahm Dosa and there has been no biographical information made available, nor has anyone come forward to report that they also know of this man. The reason that I raise this point is that I am wondering if by identifying whose art/practice pre-dated who we are perpetuating the continued speculation regarding who is to be designated whose superior in Korean arts, yes? I would remind you that this particular line of thought is a particularly American and Japanese pre-occupation and remains a non-sequiter in tradtional Korean MA. . "...I've never thought it was strange that a monk knew martial art, but maybe it's because I've meet a couple in Korea?..." I think you are mis-interpreting me. (Are you, perhaps using a translation program. I notice that some very important nuances in my writing are routinely being mis-read.). I don't find learning MA from a monk unusual. Claiming that said obscure monk is the 57th in a line extending back 1400 years is quite unusual. That said monk of such standing is not recognized as a national treasure, or remains unknown and undocumented is suspect, which in turn makes GM Lees' assertions suspect. "....Pretty funny! GM Lee has never said he stopped training under Suam Dosa in 1950, just that he couldn't train daily any more. Both GM Lee and his brother trained continuously until the monk died in 1969. I doubt he would claim he'd mastered all techniques in 1950, but I'll ask next time I see him...." Of course, you are right. GM Lee never said that he stopped training. But then, in this interview he never said that he continued to train. GM Lee did indicate that he went on to train under GM Choi and while a number of columes are dedicated to GM Choi in the interview, nothing else is said of Su-Ahm Dosa after 1950. Given that Su-Ahm Dosa lived until 1969 there would most probably be a record of his death and a commentary on his funeral, yes? In like manner, I am sure that there must be other practitioners of Um-Yang Kwon who, while not of his lineage, would have known this monk, known the art, and could provide additional light on its place in Korean martial tradition, yes? "...Yes, I can see why that very important observation makes it a terrible series of articles. Of course it makes it totally uninteresting that GM Lee is saying things about the Korean MA history in the article that never has been published before...." Yes, I agree with what you are saying. My point is not that GM Lee is disclosing information that has not been published. Rather my issue is that the material that is being presented as fact is not being supported with the appropriate documentation, or supported with verification or authentification by an objective source. To my eyes the result seems to be that GM Lee is using unverifiable material and carefully worded statements to invoke an authority for his art which is not warrented. Can you document any of the positions that GM Lee asserts for the HwaRangDo art? "...I have never meet anyone, who actually meet GM Lee, who has said GM Lee was not 'worthy' of the master title when he opened his school. Have you meet GM Lee or anyone who trained under him/at the same time?..." Once again, I think you are misunderstanding my point. I am not in a position to pass judgement on GM Lees competence as a businessman, a martial artist, or as a person if it comes to that. I have not met him personally, nor have I trained under him nor any of his students. It is exactly for this reason that I entered into this dialogue. I believe that the vast numbers of Korean MA practioners have likewise not met GM Lee and we have only what he says to go on. This is the same as with any of the MA leadership. I am, however, invoking my right as a consumer to ask for corroboration or authentification of his statements before accepting these statements as facts. This would be no less than what you would ask of me were I to invoke a position of superiority over GM Lee by virtue of some claim. "....(In 1960 I was teaching under the HwaRang Mu Sool banner.. ... I changed the name of my school to HwaRangdo and Hapkido.....and Ji, Han Jae switched and founded Sung Mu Kwan Hapkido....GM Lee does mention training with GM Choi and ¡°in 1956, my brother and I recieved master-level (rank) in yu sool.... and anyone who trained in Korea between 1960 and 1968 knew I was a Hapkido founder and Hwa Rang Do founder..... Is there anything here that contradicts what I have been posting.....? Honestly, Carsten, I am not sure. When I read some responses about HwaRangDo and Hapkido I feel sometimes that I am watching a high-wire act at the Circus, or watching a soldier carefully thread his way through a minefield. The feeling that I get is that the answers are carefully crafted to suggest authority, authenticity and accuracy where little exists. It would be of great help if GM Lee could step back away from anecdotal material and begin to identify hard evidence to support his statements. Failing this I think we are left to conclude that a comparison of biomechanics among Kuk-Sool-Won, HwaRangDo and Hapkido identifies tham all as what I have come to call Hapkido arts. As a practitioner of Yon Mu Kwan Hapkido, I would be intersted to hear how you delineated HwaRangDo from my art biomechanically. Best Wishes, Bruce ------------------------------ From: Ray Terry Date: Mon, 16 Jul 2001 7:14:48 PDT Subject: the_dojang: . ------------------------------ End of The_Dojang-Digest V8 #412 ******************************** It's a great day for Taekwondo! Support the USTU by joining today. US Taekwondo Union, 1 Olympic Plaza, Ste 104C, Colorado Spgs, CO 80909 719-578-4632 FAX 719-578-4642 ustutkd1@aol.com http://www.ustu.org To unsubscribe from the_dojang-digest send the command: unsubscribe the_dojang-digest -or- unsubscribe the_dojang-digest your.old@address in the BODY (top line, left justified) of a "plain text" e-mail addressed to majordomo@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com. 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