From: the_dojang-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com To: the_dojang-digest@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Subject: The_Dojang-Digest V8 #414 Reply-To: the_dojang@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Errors-To: the_dojang-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Precedence: The_Dojang-Digest Tues, 17 July 2001 Vol 08 : Num 414 In this issue: the_dojang: Hapkido - Hwarangdo the_dojang: Re: Dojangs in Denver the_dojang: Re: ITF President the_dojang: ITF, WTF Taekwondo and Tang Soo Do the_dojang: SWITCHING ITF, WTF Tae Kwon Do the_dojang: Re: Seminar Education the_dojang: Re: The_Dojang-Digest V8 #413 the_dojang: Re:Teacher's Power; Students Power the_dojang: RE: Seminar Education the_dojang: Re: ITF, WTF, TKD, TSD, and the rest of the alphabet... the_dojang: Re: Cross-training the_dojang: Usage of Nim/Sir in Korean. the_dojang: Re: ITF, WTF Taekwondo, and Tang Soo Do the_dojang: Interviews the_dojang: Re: The_Dojang-Digest V8 #413 the_dojang: Re: San - Nim Re: the_dojang: Re: Dojangs in Denver the_dojang: . ========================================================================= The_Dojang, serving the Internet since June 1994. ~1111 members strong! Copyright 1994-2001: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource The premier internet discussion forum devoted to the Korean Martial Arts. Replying to this message will NOT unsubscribe you. To unsubscribe, send "unsubscribe the_dojang-digest" (no quotes) in the body (top line, left justified) of a "plain text" e-mail addressed to majordomo@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com. To send e-mail to this list use the_dojang@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com See the Korean Martial Arts (KMA) FAQ and the online search engine for back issues of The_Dojang at http://www.MartialArtsResource.com Pil Seung! ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Patrick L" Date: Mon, 16 Jul 2001 16:58:53 -0700 Subject: the_dojang: Hapkido - Hwarangdo Dear Mr. Stovall, You wrote; >From what I can gather...some people on one side of this "argument" hold >the position that Hwarang-Do is actually modified Hapkido with a trumped up >lineage to make it appear as if it is descended from some antiquated >martial tradition? . . . so please don't think I'm trying to stir up one >side against the other. OK...maybe just a little:)< SGM Lee in his latest attempt at a History as written in Black Belt magazine states that he was involved in 'Hapkido'. He also states why he has been trying to distance himself. Regardless of whether you believe SGM's monk story or not, IMHO there are greater similarities than differences in the two arts. But when asked, a Korean 'Hapkido' GM might just smile and say; "of course Hwarangdo is Hapkido". They also might say the same about 'Yawara', and any other Koreanized Juijitsu that lended itself to the organization in the 1960's. Getting in the WAY, Patrick _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com ------------------------------ From: "Todd and Debi Deininger" Date: Mon, 16 Jul 2001 18:25:34 -0600 Subject: the_dojang: Re: Dojangs in Denver <<<>>> Ron, not much in the way of HKD in Denver to my knowledge. There was someone teaching out of one of the high schools in Denver, I don't have the number handy, but I can hunt for it if you want me to. I am planning to start up a class in North Denver at the beginning of September. Todd ------------------------------ From: danny Date: Mon, 16 Jul 2001 20:01:45 -0600 Subject: the_dojang: Re: ITF President Dear Sir, I find your statements quite interesting. You seek a martial arts organization that is purely democratic. This would mean it is not martial. I do not understand your logic. Regarding your thoughts that the other GMs or other Masters may have wanted the job but did not even have a shot. You infer that they were given a clear message that they should not run. MMmmm. I have met and worked out with all 3 GMs. Some I knew or have known for many years. They are all very personable. I never realized that they were interested in taking over the presidency of the ITF. I do know that they are full supporters of General Choi and his presidency. They seemed content in doing what they are doing. Master Choi, on the other hand, has been groomed many years for that job. I have met him also. He too is very personable. He has been visiting a great many schools and organizations doing seminars, becoming acquainted with them for many years. Are there politics involved? Of course, there are more than 1 person involved. Did General Choi prefer Master Choi for the job. I strongly suspect so. But I must ask. Since you so strongly assess the situation as being unfair, I am sure you have your preference for the Presidency. Would you care to let us know who he/she is? Is it GM Sereff? GM Hwang? GM Rhee? Master McCallum?, Master Gallaraga? Someone else? Also, please tell us how you think their governing would differ from the President-elect. Also, please tell us what you consider to be "truly democratic". Certainly not most of the business of the United States, since our system is based upon a republic. I am interested in finding out if you think the ITF could operate as "truly democratic". Would all of the entire membership vote in these things? What about other business? Thank you for your time, Danny Alberts > > From: JSaportajr@aol.com > Date: Sun, 15 Jul 2001 09:08:57 EDT > Subject: the_dojang: Re: ITF President > > In a message dated 7/15/2001 12:14:48 AM Eastern Daylight Time, > the_dojang-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com writes > > << > Only Master Choi and General Choi were running for president. It doesn't > appear that very many people want the job. > >> > Want the job?, or feel that they even had a shot at the job?, or perhaps got > the clear message that no one else should run? Don't you suspect that this > "election" was predetermined? Not a shot at the ITF, but I would fall off my > chair if I ever came across a Korean Martial Arts Association that was truly > democratic. USTU and WTF included. I know of a Korean man who was president > of a state Taekwondo association (USTU), who was told by a high ranking > official to step aside for another Korean man who was from the high-ranking > official's town in Korea and kwan. The state president refused, and he had > the sh-- beat out of him outside his hotel in Colorado. My instructor was > voted the president of the Massachusetts TKD Association and the election was > thrown out by the USTU and given to his Korean opponent. Do you really think > that it just so happened that the General's son was the only one who wanted > the job? Jose' ------------------------------ From: "Miguel" Date: Mon, 16 Jul 2001 22:13:02 -0400 Subject: the_dojang: ITF, WTF Taekwondo and Tang Soo Do I hold Black belts in both ITF (2dan) and WTF (3dan) Taekwondo. Yes I do know both sets of patterns (Tul - ITF, Poomse - WTF). ITF - Chon-gi, Tan-gun, Do-San WTF - Taegeuk i-chong, il-chong, Som-chong... They are different and I like them both. WTF has more footwork. ITF has deeper stances and greater diversity. Level of difficulty is the same, some are easier, some are harder than others. If done as they should be done, with full power, snap, perfect stance, correct speed in movement, correct targeting of technique, they are all hard, especially if done in sequence without breaks. ITF tend to score higher in open tournaments. On the learning part, if you know your stances striking and blocking techniques, then the only thing to learn is the pattern, so it is easier the second time around. I did ITF first and I found that Taegeuk 1, 2, and 3 are so similar that they were hard to keep separated in my head for a long time. Miguel Garcia's Tae Kwon Do www.garciatkd.com ------------------------------ From: "Miguel" Date: Mon, 16 Jul 2001 22:35:14 -0400 Subject: the_dojang: SWITCHING ITF, WTF Tae Kwon Do Dizzy, At my dojang, it works similar to your post but, no belt is awarded or recognized until there is a BB test. The transferring student can keep his or her BB during the 9+ months of training in the new style but no certification is awarded and the appropriate (current style) uniform must be worn without rank designation (i.e. black collar, etc). The respect that comes with having earned that BB is always given. Miguel Garcia's Tae Kwon Do www.garciatkd.com ------------------------------ From: JSaportajr@aol.com Date: Mon, 16 Jul 2001 22:42:23 EDT Subject: the_dojang: Re: Seminar Education In a message dated 7/16/2001 7:55:52 PM Eastern Daylight Time, the_dojang-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com writes: << Seminar Education >> Michael That is an interesting question. I have mixed feeling about it. The problem I think, at least for me is that I rarely remember more than one or two techniques that were shown. Ive attended dozens of seminars that I've enjoyed, don't know how much stayed with me, if two techniques stick im happy. I dont think its a substitute for training regularly with a master. So much repetition, and repetition in front of a qualified master is necessary. So much subtlety is lost if you see it once and practice it on your own. In medical school and internship, we used to say, "See one, do one, teach one." I dont think that works with martial arts. Master Kwon in Tewksburry MA has developed a new martial art that combines his life long experience in Taekwondo (8th dan), Hapkido (8th Dan) and Tae Kick Boxing (an undefeated professional career in Asia). I tried to talk him into teaching seminars on this but he wouldn't -- he said no one would remember anything and if people wanted to learn the art they should come regularly to train. I would imagine that the masters of old would find these seminars we do an odd thing. But I think the value of seminars is an interesting thread. Maybe another thread would be for people to list those seminars that have been most memorable to them. Jose' ------------------------------ From: J Thomas Howard Date: Mon, 16 Jul 2001 22:22:42 -0500 (CDT) Subject: the_dojang: Re: The_Dojang-Digest V8 #413 "Ron Bain" wrote: > Subject: the_dojang: Dojangs in Denver > > Can anyone recommend any Tang Soo Do or Hapkido schools in the Denver > Colorado area? Heck yes! Contact Master Instructor Larry Hampton, of the US Hapkido Association. He teaches classes at Colorado School of Mines, and also holds classes in the wrestling room of South High School in Denver on Tuesdays and Thursdays. His phone number is 303-756-1423. Not only is he an outstanding practitioner, but he is one of the best _teachers_ I've ever run into. Tell him I sent you. (This may or may not help. :) Picture of him at http://www.binary.net/thomcat/HapkidoPicts.html First picture---and yes, he really is that tall. I'm not THAT short. Thomas (And yes, he is my instructor. :) - ------------------------------------ thomcat@binary.net http://www.binary.net/thomcat/Hap.html "If you aren't modeling what you are teaching then you are teaching something else." ------------------------------ From: "Bruce Sims" Date: Mon, 16 Jul 2001 22:25:25 -0500 Subject: the_dojang: Re:Teacher's Power; Students Power Dear Patrick: Yes, you are quite right. While I cannot be sure how you came to imbue the instuctor with such power I must tell you that every educational venue in which I have participated that produced a successful outcome placed the needs of the student over the needs of both the subject and the teacher. I have seen new teachers attempt to utilize the authoritarian model. In my experience it comes out of one of two places or both. 1.The first place is that the student is somehow deficient and must be shaped by forces outside of themselves as they are inept or untrustworthy of being guided by anything other than authority. 2.The second place is that the teacher must apply authority to protect themselves from having their position of power at the head of the class and concerning the subject eroded. Either position, and most certainly a combination of the two are incorrect and counter-productive both in education and in western society in general. I believed your comments regarding art classes to be thought-provoking but misplaced within the context of our dialogue. I am speaking of education as a way of encouraging change and thought by harnessing the motives and abilities of the student from within. I know that you are speaking of education as the imposition of the will of the teacher upon the student from outside. If it is of any consolation I have seen more than my share of this position in "traditional Korean Martial Arts." "...Again you assume that ALL the teachers information is the RIGHT of the student's to have. I disagree with this position. ..." So do I. I never said the student has a right to have all information. What I was suggesting is that the teacher does not honor his profession by willfully withholding information for his or her own selfish purpose. I believe that the role of the teacher is to encourage growth such that the student will one day be able to function on their own and will no longer need the teacher. To willfully withhold inofrmation with the intent of protracting the teaching experience so as to increase tuition, extend testing revenues or foster a kind of dependence on the teacher is a violation of a teachers' ethics if not their morals. Turning the coin over, you are right to say that in the end the student is, in fact, his own teacher. This is a basic premise of education that goes back to the beginnings of formalized education. The code is that one does not teach a person as much as guides and encourages that student to teach themselves and become hungry to know more. I will even take this further, and I believe that this, too, is a major difference in our positions. I DO NOT believe that either technique, philosophy, purpose or affect is the "intellectual property" of the teacher. The teacher is no more than a conduit leading the information from that generation before, through them, to that generation to follow. The teacher does not own his subject. Even in our own legal system in this country one must put material down in a media to have the copyright licensed. In addition, our culture has taught us that everything has its price and there are a number of safe-guards we have in our communication industry to make sure that "the price" makes it to the right pockets. In closing, I hear you say you already "have those correct traits". I would be interested to hear an operational definition of "correct traits" as, near as I can tell you position seems to be based on little more than aping the worse qualities that martial instruction has to offer. I would rather you re-think the wisdom of blind fealty or slavish adherence to martial trappings such as the media and personalities have developed them, However, I imagine that the real damage lies in your passing such posturing along as the actual embodiment of the Korean arts or culture to your students. Best Wishes, Bruce ------------------------------ From: "Lasich, Mark D." Date: Tue, 17 Jul 2001 08:18:45 -0400 Subject: the_dojang: RE: Seminar Education Mr. Rowe, While I have limited seminar exposure, I fully agree that one can integrate new ideas, philosophies, approaches, and yes, techniques into their "matrix" through many means...Yes, working with an instructor will allow one to grow their technical and physical skills, and is perhaps viewed as the most traditional approach. I have seen the arts categorized by three various aspects: Physical, Mental and Spiritual. Much effort is spent on only the physical, with little to no effort to develop the other two - other than as a side-effect of physical training. As Mr. Myers points out, Respect, Humility, Responsibility, etc. are very important aspects of our martial arts training as well. These can be developed through learning and applying physical technques, or can be developed more directly by exploring and focusing on the non-physical aspects of the arts. I doubt that many students would be appreciative of regular lengthly sessions that focus on the mental and/or spiritual aspects of the arts, so this leaves one-on-one with your instructor, seminars, reading, etc. After over 20 years in the Korean arts, I have pulled back to focus more time with the family. In that time, to satisfy my Martial Art fever, I have been reading a lot on various MA philosophies. For the first time I actually have a feeling that there is some DEPTH to my physical abilities. I realize now that there is much, much more to what I know than just how to move your arms and legs - any dancer can move their arms and legs. This, unfortunately, is not an easy road either. A flash of inspiration from thought, reading and reflection may impact an individual for some time, but all too often I find myself slipping into my "old ways". By this I mean, I need to practice more and more of the mental and spiritual aspects of the arts - simple things like how to handle conflict (non-physical), how to react/respond when things don't go "your way", how to nurture patience in my life, how to expand my view of the world around me...... I find myself too often lost in my own thoughts, only to realize I've missed the point of someone else's conversation, I wonder how I got to a certain place when driving, I too easily get sucked into non-constructive complaints of work/people who don't do things they way I think they should be, I get irritated by the car behind me that wants to drive 10 mph faster than I am.......I could go on and on and on and on. The point is, and it may sound corny, but I want to be a better person. I do have these physical skills, and while I can handle these skills responsibly, I feel the way I handle my thoughts and emotions needs a lot more development. This, I believe, can definitely happen outside the traditional class, but can be reinforced in the class. All skills need practiced, whether these be physical or not. The real value of what you learn from a seminar will only be recognized as you practice what you've learned. Only then will you be able to say that you've been able to incorporate what you've learned into your matrix. Mark mark.lasich@alcoa.com ------------------------------ From: Brian Myers Date: Tue, 17 Jul 2001 07:22:06 -0500 Subject: the_dojang: Re: ITF, WTF, TKD, TSD, and the rest of the alphabet... In the ATA we have a similar acceptance policy. It is up to each individual instructor/school owner to assess each new student. If a student comes from any "hard" art (ie TSD, Karate, or other striking arts) they are given a basic skills assessment. In this we try to match their current skills to our standard skills sets. Each of our lower ranks (color belts/Gueps) has a specific set of kicks, punches, blocks, and stances, they should know as well as a new form (kata/Hyung) , self-defense combinations, and other requirements. We try to figure out where the new student's skills fit into our system and they are usually awarded a temporary (also known as a undecided) rank. They are then given instruction to help them learn the techniques that are different from their own and are encouraged not only to learn the form for the belt they hold, but all forms below that level. The first testing they go through wth our organization then moves them (if successful) to a decided version of that rank. From then on they are expected to fullfill all requirements as any other student would be. A little explination on our decided vs. undecided ranks. Each belt level has a decided and undecided rank associated, except white belt and all Dan ranks. The Dan ranks carry a manadatory Recomended Rank, then a second test to recieve the full Dan rank. This is due to the extreme amount of material each Dan rank must learn to advance. In all cases to move a full Dan rank a student must be able to demonstrate (2) weapons, Self-Defenses, Pressure Point Control Tactics, a new form (1st Dan being 81 moves, and adding 1 move to the total for every Dan - each form however is VERY different from the last), Sparring abilities (now into the multiple attackers), multiple station continuous motion board breaks, and all lower rank material at the head instructor's discretion. The lower ranks are usually tested every 2-3 months. At that time they are given a "no change", undecided, or decided rank. Most students opt not to test when unready so not many "no changes" are given. At the instructor's descretion a student may receive an undecided rank, usually due to weaknesses in the form or on particular techniques. These students along with those that receive a decided rank are moved on to the next belt level, however, those holding undecided rank must pass another test to receive their decided rank and then will be eligable for the next rank testing. By using the undecided/decided system we are able to keep a student interested and learning new material, but also have the ability to ensure they truely know their lower rank material. Sorry for the long winded explination, but I don't know a better way to explain our system. Yours in the Martial Spirit, Brian Myers ------------------------------ From: Brian Myers Date: Tue, 17 Jul 2001 07:39:10 -0500 Subject: the_dojang: Re: Cross-training Mr. Giddins, I will have to put on the bullet proof vest, and kevlar helmut for my next statement... I cross-train between arts and cultures. I am a 1st Dan holder in Songahm Taekwondo (which seems at times to make me somewhat an outlaw in the TKD community) and hold a White Belt - -Beginner rank in Aiki-jutsu. I chose to expand my "hard" style knowledge with that of a "soft" style. I find the combination, along with Japanese Swordsmanship, to be both very challenging and very rewarding. So much so that I have began also practicing a little Tai Chi Chuan, mostly for the relaxation and therepuetic benefits. I think that cross-training between styles is great. Even better is using both "hard" and "soft" styles together. This allows a martial artist to adapt to any situation, and teaches you to be very flexible, not only in body, but in mind and spirit. I applaud your searching for more information and encourage everyone I talk to to do the same. As for the Songahm Forms - yes they are a copyrighted item. However, most everyone who instructs in the ATA would have no problem helping you to learn our forms and technique differences. While the forms and teaching tools are copyrighted, we do not condone any sort of information hording and will freely teach anyone. We only ask that you do not then go out and teach others the forms, claiming to instruct our form. This is more to protect the students, our system is very organized and heavily integrated, teaching just the forms without understanding the whole system would be a great injustice to the students. I would suggest you try to find a local ATA instructor. I could provide you copies of the student forms sheets, but they have only techniques and the order, and would be next to impossible to use without instruction from someone who has done the form and knows all the little pieces that make it a whole. Good Luck! Yours in the Martial Spirit, Brian Myers ------------------------------ From: "Peter Kim" Date: Tue, 17 Jul 2001 08:46:47 -0400 Subject: the_dojang: Usage of Nim/Sir in Korean. Nim is similar to San in Japanese. Usually it is used with "office" or "position" one holds. As in Sa Bum Nim, or Sun Sang Nim. However, it's rarely used with one's name. No one will call me Peter Kim Nim. That's just plan silly. Also, it is used for people who are older or one that is respected. Normally not used for someone who's younger. When one is calling Sa Bum Nim and they want to indicate which Sa Bum Nim they are talking to the usage is LastName Office/Position Nim. So, let say the Sa Bum Nim's name is Myung Tae Park where Park is last name, one will address that Sa Bum Nim as Park Sa Bum Nim. Nim never goes front of the person's name. Or you could use the full name and office and Nim, but remember, in Korea, last name comes before the first name so.. Park Myung Tae Sa Bum Nim. Certain office or position can't not be used with Nim, simply because certain title has traditional form of addressing. If you know of some older person that you want to show repect to, and they do not hold any office or position, you could just call them Sun Sang Nim. Sun Sang Nim mean teacher. However, it is used to indicate someone who one respects, sort of like Sensei in Japanese. Pete ------------------------------ From: Piotr Bernat Date: Tue, 17 Jul 2001 15:32:31 +0200 Subject: the_dojang: Re: ITF, WTF Taekwondo, and Tang Soo Do > I have something intersting to pass along. In my dojang, if a student > comes into our school as a black belt of Tae kwon do (We are TSD), he > starts out as a white belt, but if he isn't lying, and he's truly a BB in > TKD, they'll jump that student up to cho dan bo (one belt below BB)... We don`t have too much Tang Soo Do in my country (I`ve heard one GM was coming from the UK for a seminar but that`s all I know). Quite often, however, I have people from ITF styled groups joining our school. Their grade will be fully recognized in the dojang. If somebody is say 1st dan in the ITF style, he or she can wear the black belt in the dojang. A younger student will usually fully convert to the WTF style patterns etc. and will have their next test according to Polish WTF TKD Federation rules. When it comes to more senior grades, I leave them certain freedom here. We are simultaneously affiliated to Polish Taekwondo Union which also caters for ITF style practitioners. So, a person with ITF style 1st Kup can either test for Kukkiwon 1st Dan in the PTF, or for ITF style 1st Dan with the PTU. However, I won`t allow such a person to test earlier than ca. one year from joining us. I simply want to see if he / she is dedicated enough to work with us, or is that person just looking for another promotion. So far we had no problems with it. If somebody wants to keep practicicing ITF style patterns in our school that`s OK with me as well (I did ITF for a couple of years so sometimes I can help :) Regards - -- Piotr Bernat dantaekwondo@lublin.home.pl http://www.taekwondo.prv.pl ------------------------------ From: "Meghan Gardner" Date: Tue, 17 Jul 2001 10:36:08 -0400 Subject: the_dojang: Interviews Ellen, <> If you check out our assault prevention section, you'll find over 20 articles that will help you out - at least on the mental level. It's good to hear that, even without formal training in assault prevention, you have managed to fail your interviews. Direct eye contact and an assertive posture is often enough to persuade most would-be assailants to look elsewhere. If you are ever in our area, feel free to stop by our facility. Stay aware and safe. Meghan Gardner Director Guard Up, Inc. www.guardup.com Waltham, MA USA "Always carry love in your heart, and a knife in your pocket." me ------------------------------ From: Chereecharmello@aol.com Date: Tue, 17 Jul 2001 10:43:27 EDT Subject: the_dojang: Re: The_Dojang-Digest V8 #413 Dizzy...I would still like to give you a new nickname...How about "Busy" ? :0 ) I began training in a Japanese MA. The reason: My brother is an ADHD kid. I thought it would help him focus or at the very least tire him out! Unfortunately, the instructor there was unethical so I left in search of a better environment. I never sought to retain my rank, fully realizing that beginning in a new art meant exactly that-beginning again. I found what I was looking for as I watched a young man teaching a children's class at CS Kim Karate. He was organized, articulate and stern but compassionate and seemed to have a genuine mastery of the content of his field...an ideal educator. My first love was not the art, but the family-type atmosphere inherent in the school. There is just something about sweating (and sometimes bleeding) along side of another person. It really is an unexplainable bond. My real love of the art of Tang Soo Do began with the Pyong Ahn forms. As my instructor began to explain the moves, the complexity boggled my mind and renewed my respect for the MA's as a true 'art.' Occasionally, I sit in on a Hapkido class. I wholeheartedly relish the differences between Hapkido and Tang Soo Do. I would not call this "cross-training," so to speak, because I feel the I still have a great deal to accomplish in Tang Soo Do. If you fail to appreciate the differences in other arts, then you are missing out on one of the fundamental principles inherent in the MA's-RESPECT! There, Busy Dizzy. Just trying to fulfill your wish and contributing something nice and non-confrontational :0 ) - -Cheree ------------------------------ From: ABurrese@aol.com Date: Tue, 17 Jul 2001 10:53:43 EDT Subject: the_dojang: Re: San - Nim Ray, If you do not know the person's title, you use NAME-san in Japan. In Korea, if you don't know the person's title, you can use NAME - Songsangnim to be more Polite. (NAME = Family name) So addressing Mr. Kim, I would say Kim Songsangnim, not Kim Nim. That is a basic general rule to be polite if you do not know any other title that is appropriate for the person. Alain ------------------------------ From: Ray Terry Date: Tue, 17 Jul 2001 9:58:53 PDT Subject: Re: the_dojang: Re: Dojangs in Denver > Can anyone recommend any Tang Soo Do or Hapkido schools in the Denver > Colorado area? Master West... Did your student in the Denver area get his HKD dojang up and running? Ray Terry raymail@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com ------------------------------ From: Ray Terry Date: Tue, 17 Jul 2001 10:16:47 PDT Subject: the_dojang: . ------------------------------ End of The_Dojang-Digest V8 #414 ******************************** It's a great day for Taekwondo! Support the USTU by joining today. US Taekwondo Union, 1 Olympic Plaza, Ste 104C, Colorado Spgs, CO 80909 719-578-4632 FAX 719-578-4642 ustutkd1@aol.com http://www.ustu.org To unsubscribe from the_dojang-digest send the command: unsubscribe the_dojang-digest -or- unsubscribe the_dojang-digest your.old@address in the BODY (top line, left justified) of a "plain text" e-mail addressed to majordomo@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com. Old digest issues are available via ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com. Copyright 1994-2001: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource Standard disclaimers apply.