From: the_dojang-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com To: the_dojang-digest@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Subject: The_Dojang-Digest V8 #417 Reply-To: the_dojang@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Errors-To: the_dojang-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Precedence: The_Dojang-Digest Wed, 18 July 2001 Vol 08 : Num 417 In this issue: the_dojang: Re: The_Dojang-Digest V8 #415 the_dojang: Re: Nim vs. Ssi the_dojang: Re: The_Dojang-Digest V8 #416 the_dojang: Jimmy Jansen the_dojang: RE: language stuff the_dojang: RE: Hapkido in Thailand? the_dojang: RE: nim vs. ssi the_dojang: Accepting other belts the_dojang: RE: The_Dojang-Digest V8 #416 the_dojang: Nim or Ssi the_dojang: KSR 2001-08: _Spirit of the Mountains_, by David A. Mason the_dojang: Re: I'm not sure if this is a form of discussion but... the_dojang: Poomse, patterns, hyung, forms the_dojang: crediting bb's from other styles the_dojang: . ========================================================================= The_Dojang, serving the Internet since June 1994. ~1111 members strong! Copyright 1994-2001: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource The premier internet discussion forum devoted to the Korean Martial Arts. Replying to this message will NOT unsubscribe you. To unsubscribe, send "unsubscribe the_dojang-digest" (no quotes) in the body (top line, left justified) of a "plain text" e-mail addressed to majordomo@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com. To send e-mail to this list use the_dojang@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com See the Korean Martial Arts (KMA) FAQ and the online search engine for back issues of The_Dojang at http://www.MartialArtsResource.com Pil Seung! ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Chereecharmello@aol.com Date: Wed, 18 Jul 2001 10:53:24 EDT Subject: the_dojang: Re: The_Dojang-Digest V8 #415 Yes, Dizzy! I do attend tournaments that Master Kim OK's. Let me know when and where! I would be glad to meet you and swap stories/info... If you are attempting to learn an art in its totality, then I would say wait a while before beginning another area of study. But, if you are more interested in self-defense I think it is great to 'cross-train.' I don't think I could learn as proficiently if I spent equal amounts of time studying more than one art. Oh, and how tiring would that be?!? We only 'officially' learn Tang Soo Do, however it is quite evident that some instructors cross-reference other arts. Tang Soo Do seems to be, primarily, a standing art (limited floor work.) However, I have seen a few telltale Hapkido self-defense techniques on the mat. My fiance has a friend who teaches (sp.?) Si Fu (Kung Fu). The two often swap forms. This guy is amazing. He's rounding 60 and still looks like one of those young lifeguard boys... - -Cheree ------------------------------ From: "Yarchak, Mary Kay" Date: Wed, 18 Jul 2001 11:12:15 -0400 Subject: the_dojang: Re: Nim vs. Ssi I'm a bit of a novice at Hangul so please correct me if I have something twisted here but, in re: Frank's question regarding nim vs. ssi, it's my understanding that ssi is used following what an English speaker would call the first name. So Frank would be Frank-ssi, not Clay-ssi. The English equivalent of Mr. Clay would be Clay Sunsangnim and in the dojang, he would be addressed as Clay Sabomnin. The only time of which I'm aware when nim is not appropriate is in referring to one's self - it would be like calling yourself 'sir' or 'ma'am". I have seen the "nim" written in Hangul and haven't been taught any prohibitions against its general written use. MK ------------------------------ From: Dave Weller Date: Wed, 18 Jul 2001 10:08:40 -0500 Subject: the_dojang: Re: The_Dojang-Digest V8 #416 Mr Jensen asked: >From: "Jim Jansen" >Hi! I'm not sure if this is a form of discussion but I have a question. I >want to start taekwondo training with a certain school, however my best >friend said some things about it. I do not really believe him but I just >wanted to clear it off my chest. Is taekwondo effective self-defence >against seasoned boxers or kickboxers? - ------>In a word, Yes. Provided the Taekwondo stylist is as "seasoned" as the boxer or kickboxer. dave weller student wtf tkd "Practice a thousand hours and you learn self discipline. Practice ten thousand hours and you learn about yourself." Myamoto Musashi ------------------------------ From: "Craig Stovall" Date: Wed, 18 Jul 2001 10:39:32 -0500 Subject: the_dojang: Jimmy Jansen Jimmy writes: "Hi! I'm not sure if this is a form of discussion but I have a question. I want to start taekwondo training with a certain school, however my best friend said some things about it. I do not really believe him but I just wanted to clear it off my chest. Is taekwondo effective self-defence against seasoned boxers or kickboxers? thanks heaps, I will be very grateful for any replies." My standard answer when asked about "style vs. style": I have seen a lot of PEOPLE get into fights...I have never, ever seen STYLES get into fights. In a fight between a 115 pound world champion boxer, and a 280 pound bar bouncer...I'll put my money on the doorman any day of the week. Now, does this mean "boxing style" is inneffective against "bouncing style"? No...it's a ridiculous question. If you are new to the martial arts, then here's what I would say to you. Find something that "works" for you, and don't worry about what other people say about it. Rickson Gracie, Mike Tyson, Bruce Lee, and General Choi all have one thing in common. Everything they practice was made obsolete by the invention of gunpowder. Don't get caught up in the petty "battle of the styles". Most of the people who keep this ongoing debate going either have too much time on their hands, don't really train at all, or need the validation of others to prop up their fragile egos (Read; "Ken Shamrock is a badass shootfighter...by the way, I train shootfighting"). Hope this helps. _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com ------------------------------ From: Bruce.Sims@med.va.gov Date: Wed, 18 Jul 2001 11:03:02 -0500 Subject: the_dojang: RE: language stuff Dear Frank: "...I thought that when addressing a normal (lol) person one would say ssi such as Terry ssi? It was my understanding that nim is not written, but used in spoken korean... anyone with a short post be able to tell me?..." I would be interested in a response to this question myself. I was given to believe that using the suffix "-ssi" can be a bit tricky as it is suggestive a a familiar or intimate (non-sexual) relationship with another. If I was understanding my instructor correctly, connections are very important among Korean society and it sounds as though this is a good way to get into trouble suggesting a level of friendship which does not exist in fact. Anyone? BTW: Many thanks to Ray for the Korean Language material you posted. Much good stuff. Best Wishes, Bruce ------------------------------ From: Bruce.Sims@med.va.gov Date: Wed, 18 Jul 2001 11:08:34 -0500 Subject: the_dojang: RE: Hapkido in Thailand? Dear Tao son saeng: At one time the World Hapkido Federation reported having a school affiliate both on Singapore and in Bangkok but this is going back quite a number of years. Sorry I couldn't be more help. Enjoy your vacation just the same. Best Wishes, Bruce ------------------------------ From: "Peter Kim" Date: Wed, 18 Jul 2001 12:18:25 -0400 Subject: the_dojang: RE: nim vs. ssi "ssi" is used when someone wants to politely address male person, in spoken language. Sometimes, it could be used for addressing female person also. For female it used to be "yahng", but last I heard that is not being used any more due to the fact lot of female hostess at the pubs and bars are being called so and so "yahng" and some take offense at that term. Usually once you get to know the person better, "ssi" is dropped from the name. Korean language has ton of those rules regarding how to address certain person at certain position, office, age.. Most of the time, all those nim, and ssi is used for older person or someone you have recently met. Usually all those terms of respect gets dropped once you find out other person is younger than you are, or you are asked to drop using higher form of addressing that person. One speaks differently to younger person than when one's addressing older person, unless that younger person is in some position that needs certain degree of respect. Even then elderly people tend to talk down to younger people, specially when that elderly person is really old. Peter Kim ------------------------------ From: "J. R. West" Date: Wed, 18 Jul 2001 11:40:40 -0500 Subject: the_dojang: Accepting other belts As I have stated before, all a belt does is let me know where a particular student is in MY system, and everyone of my students is encouraged to carry a white belt in their bag with them in the possibility of visiting someone else's school. That being said, anyone who comes to train at my school starts out as a white belt, unless they come from one of my students schools. Lower rank students will always assume that a person with higher rank has the training and knowledge to answer questions and offer help, but a person from another system or style would not have the experience in my version of HapKiDo to be a resource person. Secondly, one of the scariest things that can happen to someone is to be upside-down with their head rapidly approaching a mat, trying to convince their partner that they haven't learned how to fall yet . The fairest way to treat the crossover student is to subject him to all the nuances of training that is afforded a beginning student, that way there will be no holes in their training when the get to the upper belt level. Another consideration may be the fact that there is a certain amount of "unlearning" to do when changing styles, for example, a third dan in TKD recently joined my school and asked how long it would take for him to attain black belt, and my response was "about 4 years for someone with no prior training, and you can add a year for someone with your rank in a hard style". I was really only kidding, but after a few months here, the man said he now understood exactly what I meant. On another note, if someone refuses to remove their old belt, it is best just to let them go as they are there not to learn, but to show off, and you will lose them shortly anyway. One other problem with a black belt from another system coming into your school at his previous rank is the "instant" respect given by the other students to black belts, and since your black belts have worked for years to attain that position, it is not fair to "give" that position to someone that has not earned it in your school. As of this writing, I have at least four colored belts and two black belts that have had their own schools in other systems and have started over again here, and there are probably 10 or 12 other ex dan grade holders that have put on the white belt and are on their way back up. The highest rank that has ever come to me is a 6th dan in Isshinryu that is approaching his 2nd dan here sometime during 2002....J. R. West www.hapkido.com ------------------------------ From: "Wallace, John" Date: Wed, 18 Jul 2001 09:57:02 -0700 Subject: the_dojang: RE: The_Dojang-Digest V8 #416 Hello Mr. Kalnins: As a native english speaker, I "default" to using Mr. or Ms. whenever I'm in doubt about another person's proper title or position. I do tend to be more formal than is common (especially here in California). A lot depends on context of course. In my work I do deal with people from other countries (usually visiting my company), and I've found that the Americans around me tend to use the honorifics from the visitor's country of origin..both in direct address and in referring to the person. For example, I'd address Monsieur Troesch from France, or Takeda-san from Japan using those terms. I don't know the honorific for people from India, however, so I address Mr. Venkatapathy with my 'default' title. As for broadening my own horizons..I take it from your email domain name that you're from Latvia? How do people from your country address one another? Sincerely - -John Wallace From: "G'irts Kalnins" Date: Wed, 18 Jul 2001 09:55:13 +0300 Subject: the_dojang: Titles Hello, While thinking about this discussion, I started to wonder about usage of English here. (English is my third language) Is it appropriate to mix English and foreign adressing/titles ? IMHO in chat/slang/joking/teasing it's OK, but in respectful conversation/correspondence you should not mix in foreign words/titles, but use those of language you use. If you speak English use Mr./Sir./Master if You speak French use monsieur/e.t.c. Adressing/titles are specific for each culture and each language, sometimes they specify position/standing (Her/His Majesty for royal persons, Excellence for high officials, as governors, ambassadors, and Catholic bishops and archbishops), sometimes they are used for a sake of politeness (Mr./Miss/Sir .. ). If unfitting title is used people could think that you don't know what you are talking, or that you don't respect them enought to find out proper form of adress. If you use simple form of adress (like 'Firstname' in company of peers, 'Mr. Lastname' in others), adresees hirt might not fill with gladness and warmth, but they will respect you. Of course there are multiple exceptions. "O Sensei" for Morihei Ueshiba is used for historical reasons and he is understood by this title, likewise there is currently only one Pope or The Queen Mother. As I wrote before my knowledge of English can only be better, and your opinions would be very valuable. Respectfully, G'irts Kalnins P.S. Don't forget use one title higher for army/police officials and university officials, some people value their titles, and you can spare you lot's of problems if you take care of that ;) ------------------------------ From: J T Date: Wed, 18 Jul 2001 10:12:45 -0700 (PDT) Subject: the_dojang: Nim or Ssi In the Korean language, when addressing someone who is your friend or someone of your equal you could use ssi (sshee). For instance my wife's name is Sun-mi, occasionally I will hear one of her friends call to her saying Sun-mi ssi. This is also commonly used when addressing strangers such as young ladies (agassi) men (adjassi). Nim, as stated before is honorific and used in a respectful matter. Example Mr. Talbott= Talbott songsenim. You wouldn't say Talbott songsessi. Jeremy __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get personalized email addresses from Yahoo! Mail http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/ ------------------------------ From: Ray Terry Date: Wed, 18 Jul 2001 10:37:27 -0700 (PDT) Subject: the_dojang: KSR 2001-08: _Spirit of the Mountains_, by David A. Mason Forwarding... Ray _Spirit of the Mountains: Korea's San-Shin and Traditions of Mountain-Worship_, by David A. Mason. Seoul: Hollym International, 1999. 224 pages. ISBN: 1-56591-107-5. 30,000 won. Reviewed by John Synott Queensland University of Technology A Reviewer's Encounter with San-Shin Some years ago late in the afternoon of a grey, mild, autumn day in South Korea I walked through the woods behind Pusan National University and up the road to the fortress on the top of Mount Geumjeong. At the fortress I rambled along the broken stone walls enjoying the high solitude, with the city sprawled out far below. Mistiming the ultimate folding of the autumn dark I turned to retrace my steps and the path was nowhere to be seen. Night closed in eerily as I realised I had no choice other than to spend the night on the mountain. An experienced bushwalker, I felt no dread at spending a night in the open, and knew that it would be perilous to attempt to stumble my way out - that could lead me off a ledge into oblivion. So, rather uncomfortably as light rain set in, I formed a crude shelter from some picnic tables and settled in for the night. I had read nothing of the Korean spirits of the mountains- San-Shin - yet my sense of the spiritual beings who are said to inhabit landscapes had been well-conditioned over my lifetime of wandering across the landscapes of Australia, where indigenous people tell us the spirits of the Dreaming continue to dwell and the local communities perform the ancient ceremonies that mark their relationships to the landscapes and the spiritual beings. "The land is my mother" is a literal rather than figurative expression of belief across Aboriginal Australia. I, too, had known the spiritual sense of awe and presence that seems to reside in remote places. Resuming my story, during that night on Geumjeong-San at some deep dark hour a local wind stirred up, and whipped around me with the presence of a living creature whose habitat I had unwittingly invaded. It was not threatening, but something was definitely *there* letting me know that I was not alone, but not particularly wanted on the mountain peaks at night either. Certainly this spiritual meeting with the god of the mountain was a projection of my subjectivity as I huddled wet and hungry among the rocks, but it was vividly real to me at the time, and, ever the sceptic, I was nevertheless fascinated at the palpable reality of this happening. At first light I could not move on due to a heavy fog, but gradually it lifted and I was able to descend without much difficulty. Later that day I wrote a poem about my encounter with the god of the mountain. Sometime later I read about San-Shin in Covell's Folk Art and Magic in Korea. Then along came David Mason's book on the topic, Spirit of the Mountains (1999) which I opened with undoubtedly personal as well as academic interest. Some Defining Features of Mason's San-Shin In this book Mason has pursued a systematic study of his topic and gathered an impressive array of information from throughout South Korea regarding San-Shin. He has combined this information and his discussion/analysis of it with a most lovely set of photographs, largely taken from shrines and mountain landscapes across South Korea and the result is undoubtedly the most comprehensive book yet published in English on the subject of San-Shin. Mason's work has been beautifully presented by Hollym in a glossy coffee-table style format. The many photographs look good, though Mason informs us they were taken with non-professional equipment, and he apologises for 'these crude but authentic records' that were the results of 'one man's very long research-quest (p.24).' Yet, it is the bringing together of these two key frameworks of the book- the aesthetic and the scholarly research - that has produced its core problems. On the one hand we have a glossy invitation to ramble amongst the photographs and descriptions of San-Shin images and legends, while on the other we are meant to follow and be convinced by Mason's exposition of his scholarly research into the topic. The author tells us quite early on that this book is a revised version of his Master's thesis at Yonsei University - - in which discipline he does not say - and it is in this attempt to provide an apparently scientific and analytical basis to his exposition of San-Shin within the counter-frame of a coffee-table browser that the work fails to achieve cohesion, and instead provokes frustration. The irritation I experienced at this contradiction was exacerbated by a further and quite idiosyncratic feature of Mason's book, a theoretical web he weaves around his discussion of his topic, that leads in the end to rather na•ve proposals regarding cultural and political issues of national reunification of North Korea and South Korea. Actually Mason employs two theoretical constructs to make sense of his material. The first is a personalised categorisation that has no apparent relation to anything else in ethnographic literature: 'Over the course of this book I have developed my own theory dividing all manifestations of the Korean mountain spirit and its worship into three vertical levels' (p. 28). This theory is actually a typology. The second level of theory is an interpretive model on the meaning of San-Shin, to which I shall return later in this review essay. Mason has asked the book to carry these different levels of discussion and he has worked assiduously to weave them together, but even the mighty topic of San-shin and the strength of mountains cannot hold up such an edifice. It is useful to deconstruct them, nevertheless, to try and identify the particular strengths and weaknesses of the book, for it has a plethora of both. Presenting San-Shin In introducing San-Shin to an English-language readership, Mason picks up from the earlier writings by Covell on the emergence of San-Shin in Korean religious/folk culture through discussion of the historical foundations of the San-Shin belief. This discussion is the lead in to the very long Chapter Two "Iconography of San-Shin" which is surely the central chapter of the book, containing the presentation and description of the various beautifully coloured and presented photographs that make the book so attractive to the eye. Initially Mason identifies the contexts of shamanist and foundational roots and early historical references in the early chronicle _Samguk Yusa_ to San-Shin. This slight but useful orientation leads into an interesting discussion of gender aspects of San-Shin, which Mason concludes can be either 'ambiguously male and/or female'. While his previous discussion had clearly identified the spirits manifesting primarily as an wise old man or beautiful young woman, Mason resolves his authorial dilemna over gender forms by reverting to the neuter gender of 'it' to describe San-Shin. In fact, it is extremely difficult for Mason to maintain this neutral nomemclature throughout the book, for he reminds us often that the earlier shamanic tradition of depicting San-Shin as female fell away to dominant patriarchal representations of San-Shin, so that the mountain spirit figure is 'almost always depicted as a seated man' (p.55) and Mason tends to use the male form in most instances. However, his announcement that he is going to describe the San-Shin in gender neutral terms is an important statement in the way he attempts to position the subject in relation to the reader. By removing his subject from the anthropomorphic realm of human social and cultural construction (or attempting to) the author has suggested here so early in the text that San-Shin is an objective phenomenon that might be investigated somewhat scientifically. His extended treatment of the subject then proceeds with a systematic analysis of the phenomenon, through analysis of its various manifestations. At first, David Mason engages the reader with an interesting discussion of generic features of San-Shin: the media where images of San-Shin have been produced, particularly paintings which date from around 1650. This discussion, as throughout the book, is illustrated by a range of charming and informative photographs demonstrating the different styles of San-Shin depictions. However, by now Mason's determination to categorise every example into his self-constructed evolutionary theory of Low, Middle and High levels of San-Shin portraiture has begun to intrude into the book. His categorisation is based on an unsupported aesthetic belief that the earlier village-based images of San-Shin are primitive while those to be found in, particularly, temples are of a 'higher artistic step up' (p.45) and deserve to be categorised into 'my Higher Level' (why the category should be capitalised in this usage I fail to see). One could well argue against this social evolutionist position from a 'minjung' perspective, proposing that the genuine cultural origins of San-Shin in rural farm culture were appropriated by the ruling classes over centuries of feudal hegemony and their stylised depictions represent not a more elaborated and sophisticated understanding of San-Shin but a decadent privileging of upper-class culture as opposed to the 'true' culture of the rural peasantry. In this perspective Mason's argument for an aesthetic priority of the more elaborated works is challengeable. Over subsequent sections Mason discusses features such as the basic iconography of San-Shin images, the locations where San-Shin reside, the motifs of objects held by San-Shin, headgear images and symbols, icon-companions such as tigers, humans, other animals, and plants. The descriptions of these features largely are enjoyable reading and Mason demonstrates some keen observations of the paintings, guiding one's eye back to the reproductions to identify a range of symbolic features. This informative approach is undermined, however, by the quasi-scientific frame that the author seeks to use to, presumably, convince us of his authority on the topics under discussion. Time and again Mason tells us that a particular icon crops up in such and such a percentage 'of my collection' which, we were informed in Chapter One, is 550 photographs of San-Shin images. This constant invocation of the statistical occurrence of the particular images in Mason's collection is both off-putting to the casual reader and frustrating to the scholar, for 'my collection' is no verifiable reference point on which valid conclusions or future scholarship can develop. It is clearly the sample base of Mason's masters thesis but does not constitute knowledge that the academic readership collectively can regard as 'standard'. Quite obviously the author considers himself as pioneering the field of San-Shin studies, but his efforts to establish some quantitative base for San-Shin scholarship are not convincing. The third, again long, chapter in this book is an historically-oriented discussion of the continuities and themes of San-shin in the main religious traditions of Korea over the centuries. From shamanism and the Dan-Gun origin myth, through Daoism, Confucianism Buddhism and Christianity, Mason traces the presence of San-Shin and the various responses to it. While the accomodation of traditional religions to San-Shin themes has been fairly seamless, there are clear conflicts between Christian belief and those views of relationships between humans and nature evident in San-Shin shrines and rituals. Yet Mason manages to find Christian absorption of San-Shin elements in such practices as, for example, charismatic prayer meetings in remote mountain locations. While it is difficult to demonstrate San-Shin's universality in Korean Christian religious belief , which is clearly Mason's thesis, it is a much easier task to find many instances of Buddhist accommodation to San-Shin beliefs and Mason's discussion of the relationship between Buddhism and San-shin is nicely contextualised in historical and philosophical discussion of Korean Buddhism, again beautifully supported by photographs of paintings, architecture and natural formations. Suprisingly, this scholarly discussion of the relationship between Buddhism and San-Shin takes a discordant and unnecessarily personal tone in the final section on 'San-Shin as Bodhisattva', whereby Mason exposes the reader to an experience that 'actually shocked me speechless' . The author's reaction is to what he regards as a heretical trend towards incorporating San-Shin into a Buddhist theography. In the context of the book, the material is unimportant to the Western reader but, unnecessarily, Mason has placed himself and his views as the central subject of this last section of this chapter. His final comments on this matter are worth quoting in the context in what is to come in Chapter Four, for Mason concludes Chapter Three with these words: 'San-Shin is too native Korean to become merely a deity within an imported religion. It represents all Korea, not any one aspect, and it belongs to all Koreans, not just the Buddhists' (p.188). This emotive opinion may well seem out of context in respect to the general discussion of the chapter which is finishing, but it is a sharp warning of what is to follow in Chapter Four. The final chapter of David Mason's book is titled 'Future Prospects for the Mountain Spirit', and it is here that the author attempts to predict, indeed shape, the future trends of Korean society through his mobilisation of the San-Shin concept as the 'root-axial element' of traditional Korean culture. For all of the previous discussion that has argued the ubiquity of San-Shin consciousness throughout Korean history, there has been no argument or evidence for the essentialist position that Mason adopts in his concluding chapter. Right back in the opening chapter he had told us of his 'own idea' regarding this foundational cultural concept of San-Shin. He even offered the presumptuous proposition that his view may be what 'traditional Koreans may really have (unconsciously) meant when they worshipped their San-Shin' (p.16). Mason argues this centrality of San-Shin traditions to Korean culture while at the same time reminding us that 'I have found extremely few Koreans who can tell me anything at all about them' (p.199). It would appear that he stands alone as a solitary bearer of the meaning of a cultural artefact that contemporary society has abandoned. However, Mason asserts that there are two contemporary challenges that will ensure a revival and continuity for San-Shin. Firstly, he claims, San-Shin is a 'green' icon in an increasingly polluted and environmentally degraded world. Mason comes out as a champion of environmental protection and claims that a revitalised San-Shin worship would help defeat the environmental destruction of modernization and industrial development in Korea. While this proposal can be understood as whimsical speculation on the part of the author, the next claim does tend towards the ludicrous. Mason advances a final thesis that San-Shin will play a 'central role' in national reunification of North and South Korea, through the a revitalisation of this common cultural heritage of Dangun/San-Shin in North Korea and South Korea. Mason offers his vision that the San-Shin tradition will provide a basis for cultural reunification and concludes with a shamanist-style invocation: 'May it be So! May this book assist it!' Thus Mason concludes his treatise on San-Shin on a note far removed from the tone of measured erudition and statistically-based scholarship that he has used to set up his discussion in the earlier chapters. It is as if, in the end, he too lost belief in the rigour of his scholarship and opted for populist incantation. In summary, _Spirit of the Mountains_ left me disappointed in many respects. While I was able to enjoy the beautiful production by Hollym, particularly the photographs, I found myself having to get past the author in order to extract the information about San-Shin that was useful to me. There is much interesting reading and information in the text but I found the author's practice of introducing his opinions and his self-centred language as elements of the book that I had to filter out. Similarly I was not convinced of many aspects of his scholarship, particularly the half-baked Batesonian theory and the meaningless statistical data that seemed to be there to impress me with the illusion of academic rigour, yet achieved the opposite. There is no doubt that the topic is worthy of a book, and I don't doubt that Mason has developed his expertise on this topic. However a strong editorial hand was needed here, to curb the rash excesses and unwelcome intrusions of the author. Since there is a plan to release a paperback edition of the book, we can hope that the author will respond positively to critical feedback that has been offered in this and other reviews and take steps to let the most worthy subject be presented to readers without having to contend with distracting authorial intrusions. Citation: Synott, John 2001 Review of _Spirit of the Mountains: Korea's San-Shin and Traditions of Mountain-Worship_, by David A. Mason et al.,(1999) _Korean Studies Review_ 2001, no. 08 Electronic file: http://www.iic.edu/thelist/review/ksr01-08.htm ------------------------------ From: "Jim Griffin" Date: Wed, 18 Jul 2001 13:40:29 -0400 Subject: the_dojang: Re: I'm not sure if this is a form of discussion but... You are apt to get responses ranging from "Taekwondo sucks" to "Taekwondo is better than sex" but the real answer to your question is probably: "it depends." Whether your TKD (or just about any other martial art, I'm guessing) training will prepare you to defend yourself is going to depend on things like: How hard will you train? How often will you train? How seriously will you train? See what I mean? There are folks at the TKD school where I study that I am sure can handle themselves in about any situation, but frankly there are others I'm not so sure about. They all get the same training, but some don't apply themselves as well as others. I know some Hapkido people and some Kung Fu people etc. about whom I could make the same observation. As has been observed on this list before, how you study is probably more important that what you study. If you are interested studying in the Taekwondo school you mentioned, by all means try it out. If it turns out that particular school (or TKD in general) doesn't meet your needs, you can always try another. Hopefully, you won't be attacked by many roving bands of "seasoned boxers or kickboxers" until after you have had a few years of training. :-) - --- begin quoted message --- From: "Jim Jansen" Date: Wed, 18 Jul 2001 16:22:25 +1000 Subject: the_dojang: I'm not sure if this is a form of discussion but... Hi! I'm not sure if this is a form of discussion but I have a question. I want to start taekwondo training with a certain school, however my best friend said some things about it. I do not really believe him but I just wanted to clear it off my chest. Is taekwondo effective self-defence against seasoned boxers or kickboxers? thanks heaps, I will be very grateful for any replies. - - -jimmy jansen - --- end quoted message --- - ---===--- Jim Griffin www.wuma.com sitebuilder.liveuniverse.com/jgriffin/ _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com ------------------------------ From: Dave Weller Date: Wed, 18 Jul 2001 13:06:52 -0500 Subject: the_dojang: Poomse, patterns, hyung, forms "Damian Jones" Asked about patterns >Subject: the_dojang: ITF, WTF Taekwondo and Tang Soo Do >I would be interested to hear peoples opinions on the patterns of the >respective styles of ITF and WTF Taekwondo and Tang Soo Do. >I know that they are different, but how different? Is one set more >difficult? Are there any similarities in the patterns? - --->From my experience I would say the WTF poomse are simpler in appearance. I have watched competitors from WTF, TSD, ITF, SBD, et al. and there is beauty in every style, done properly. Many students from our school (taeguek & palgwe practitioners) have competed against students of "other" styles. We always remind them that some people they compete against will be doing forms that are much more complicated and longer than theirs. The advice is always to lock out each technique a bit longer and emphasize their power, strength and competence. At one competition a blue belt student came to me after watching others from his division practicing their forms and was worried that his form (he was doing taeguek Oh Jang) would be over 1/2 way through the other persons performance. I told him if he did his form properly with the power and used the techniques we had taught him there should be no problem. I also mentioned that Palgwe Oh Jang was a much longer form (35 moves) and if he wanted to have a bit longer form to perform, to try it. He did, and took first place. This tells me 2 things. First, even though he had not been practicing this form for competition, he was able to do it well because the time spent in class (and obviously at home) practicing ALL his forms had paid off. Second, a complex form done poorly can't hold a candle to a simple form done well. But, I digress... The differences I see in the poomse between these arts is primarily in the combination moves in TSD,SBD,TIF(there are more of them) and also in their angular motions. In the taeguek and palgwe forms, as I have learned them, there are no movements away from the cardinal points (E,W,N,S). In many of the other patterns there are movements at varying degrees from these points. There is also a lack of "pressing" (ie slow motion) movements in Taeguek and Palgwe (at the lower gup ranks anyway). There are, as another poster mentioned, a wider variety and greater quantity of kicks in some other styles. The combination moves in some of the other poomse look very nice, but from watching other stylists, I would say they are difficult to master. That said, when those forms are done well, they are lovely! >Another question, has anybody on this list transferred from one style to >another and had to learn another set of patterns? If so how did you find it? >Are there people on this list that cross train and know more than one set of >patterns. - ----> I'm trying, via books and tapes (yeah, I know it's not a great way to learn, but there ain't no TSD,SBD,ITF, etc schools within 100 miles of me), to learn some of the other styles poomse. A quick question for Kicho practitioners.. Are there other Kicho Poomse above Kicho sam Bo? I have learned the first 3 patterns, but haven't found a resource that shows any higher Kicho forms. Do others exist? Where might one find them described? Dicalaimer: I'm not trying to learn these for belt advancement in another system, nor do I believe that I have necessarily learned each form correctly ( or as well as I would if I had a flesh & blood teacher to guide me.) It's more a diversion for me than anything else, and a great help to be familiar with other styles poomse, especially if you must judge them at competitions (a dubious honor I have had a few times). Amazing what you can learn from patterns, and as Master Timmerman noted, there is no better way to exercise for a martial artist! One thing stressed very heavily at our Dojang is, when performing poomse in class, to always start and end at the same time. We are told it should sound like ONE person doing the form. I have done many a pushup for a pattern being out of sync. At a competition I attended this spring we saw a demo by the hosting school's black belts of their first form (chun ji), and I was surprised that they did not stay in sync with one another. Is this something unique to our school (staying in sync)? If our blackbelts had been so bady out of time with each other at a demo, I fear we would STILL be doing pushups. I just assumed this was a part of poomse pratice, but I've been wrong so many times before I've lost count...... >I must stress that the aim of this post is NOT to start people bickering >about any advantages/disadvantages of one style over another, or for people >to "put down" or disrespect another art. I am just interested in learning >more about the patterns of different styles. - ----> learning is GOOD ! Sorry for the long past, Mr. Terry, while you are painting your house. I hope it turns out well.... Do remember though, Ladders are very dangerous! dave weller student wtf tkd "Practice a thousand hours and you learn self discipline. Practice ten thousand hours and you learn about yourself." Myamoto Musashi ------------------------------ From: "jere-hilland" Date: Wed, 18 Jul 2001 14:45:45 -0400 Subject: the_dojang: crediting bb's from other styles I have several students who are colored belts who hold dan ranking from taekwondo to jujutsu. In our dojang, everyone who does not have hapkido ranking starts out as a white belt. If you are a taekwondo black belt and you go to a judo school and wear your black belt, be expected to be treated like a judo black belt, from the judo black belts to the judo white belts. If you are a second year medical student and you switch over to dental school you get to start over, but your experience will help you. Knowledge of basic motion can help a student move along faster in another art. When I travel I carry my black belt (I am a hapkido 5th dan) and I carry a white belt. Jere R. Hilland www.geocities.com/hapkiyukwonsul ------------------------------ From: Ray Terry Date: Wed, 18 Jul 2001 14:02:34 PDT Subject: the_dojang: . ------------------------------ End of The_Dojang-Digest V8 #417 ******************************** It's a great day for Taekwondo! Support the USTU by joining today. US Taekwondo Union, 1 Olympic Plaza, Ste 104C, Colorado Spgs, CO 80909 719-578-4632 FAX 719-578-4642 ustutkd1@aol.com http://www.ustu.org To unsubscribe from the_dojang-digest send the command: unsubscribe the_dojang-digest -or- unsubscribe the_dojang-digest your.old@address in the BODY (top line, left justified) of a "plain text" e-mail addressed to majordomo@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com. Old digest issues are available via ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com. Copyright 1994-2001: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource Standard disclaimers apply.