From: the_dojang-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com To: the_dojang-digest@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Subject: The_Dojang-Digest V8 #418 Reply-To: the_dojang@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Errors-To: the_dojang-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Precedence: The_Dojang-Digest Thur, 19 July 2001 Vol 08 : Num 418 In this issue: the_dojang: Judo Gene the_dojang: Re: Kicho Forms Re: the_dojang: Re: Kicho Forms the_dojang: Dojang insurance the_dojang: Re: The_Dojang-Digest V8 #417 the_dojang: Belt the_dojang: Thanks for your answers, the_dojang: Re: Seminars the_dojang: Re: Patterns application the_dojang: Titles Re: the_dojang: Thanks for your answers, the_dojang: Forms and Belts... the_dojang: . ========================================================================= The_Dojang, serving the Internet since June 1994. ~1111 members strong! Copyright 1994-2001: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource The premier internet discussion forum devoted to the Korean Martial Arts. Replying to this message will NOT unsubscribe you. To unsubscribe, send "unsubscribe the_dojang-digest" (no quotes) in the body (top line, left justified) of a "plain text" e-mail addressed to majordomo@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com. To send e-mail to this list use the_dojang@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com See the Korean Martial Arts (KMA) FAQ and the online search engine for back issues of The_Dojang at http://www.MartialArtsResource.com Pil Seung! ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Ray Terry Date: Wed, 18 Jul 2001 15:16:33 PDT Subject: the_dojang: Judo Gene Watching the movie Kickboxer 2 on cable. "Judo" Gene Lebell (The Man in Pink, http://www.maninpinkjudogene.com) is playing the ref for a kickboxing match. He brings the participants out to the center of the ring, turns to one and says, "Ok, Vargas, none of your wrestling bulls#*t". Sorry... it just cracked me up... Ray Terry raymail@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com ------------------------------ From: Richard Zaruba Date: Wed, 18 Jul 2001 16:48:41 -0500 Subject: the_dojang: Re: Kicho Forms > I have learned the first 3 patterns, but haven't found a resource that > shows any higher > Kicho forms. Do others exist? Where might one find them described? I originally learn six Kicho forms along with both the chong hon and palgae forms. Unfortunately I haven't practiced TKD in about fifteen years so I'm not sure where you will find them. I believe they where in one of the Moo Duk Kwon books by GM Richard Chun, I think it was volume two but I'm not sure. Hope this helps. Sincerely, Rich _______________________________________________________________________ Richard Zaruba Department of Anatomy & Cell Biology University of North Dakota School of Medicine 501 North Columbia Road P.O. Box 9037 Grand Forks, ND 58202-9037 zaruba@medicine.nodak.edu 701.777.3952 office 701.777.2576 lab 701.777.2477 fax ------------------------------ From: Ray Terry Date: Wed, 18 Jul 2001 15:45:08 PDT Subject: Re: the_dojang: Re: Kicho Forms > > I have learned the first 3 patterns, but haven't found a resource that > > shows any higher > > Kicho forms. Do others exist? Where might one find them described? > > I originally learn six Kicho forms along with both the chong hon and palgae > forms. Unfortunately I haven't practiced TKD in about fifteen years so I'm > not sure where you will find them. I believe they where in one of the Moo > Duk Kwon books by GM Richard Chun, I think it was volume two but I'm not > sure. Hope this helps. I believe that kicho (aka kibon?) just means 'basic', so the kicho/kibon forms are the basic forms. I think GM Hwang Kee originally taught 3 kibons (the forms perhaps down through Shotokan?), maybe the same with other four original kwans. Other instructors have created their own variations. Ray Terry raymail@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com ------------------------------ From: Harold Whalen Date: Wed, 18 Jul 2001 19:06:46 -0400 Subject: the_dojang: Dojang insurance I have a question for the list I need Martial Arts Dojang coverage what companies carry this ? And How much can we expect to pay? Hal ------------------------------ From: "Dizzy S." Date: Thu, 19 Jul 2001 00:09:57 -0400 Subject: the_dojang: Re: The_Dojang-Digest V8 #417 Dave Weller wrote: <> Hiya, Dave :o) I'm a TSD'er and we practice the kicho forms, but we only learned 3 (Kicho Il Bu (bo), E Bu, and Sam Bu). To the best of my knowledge, I never heard of any kicko forms higher than Kicho Sam Bu (I researched some of the TSD history, too). To take a look-see on the forms from TSD, ITF and WTF Tae Kwon Do, I suggest Master Mac's page (http://users.ev1.net/~D.McHenry/Forms/ ). He has all three sets of forms on his page. <> It's the same at my dojang. I hope I was of some help (coming from a rookie lol). Tang Soo! Dizzy 6th gup TSD www.imahq.net _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp ------------------------------ From: "Rudy Timmerman" Date: Wed, 18 Jul 2001 13:02:24 -0400 Subject: the_dojang: Belt Jere writes: > When I > travel I carry my black belt (I am a hapkido 5th dan) and I carry a white > belt. Jere R. Hilland I have carried my white belt with me for nearly fifty years. It is a permanent part of my gear, and it has served me well. Sincerely, Rudy ------------------------------ From: "Jim Jansen" Date: Thu, 19 Jul 2001 15:29:19 +1000 Subject: the_dojang: Thanks for your answers, Thankyou Craig, and Jim. I really appreciate your replies, basically what you were saying is that the harder you train the better you will be. Craig you mentioned that gunpowder made martial arts obselete. I thouroghly disagree. Guns cannot enhance your mind and body and give you a state of excellent health, even enlightment. But I knew what you were saying though. So it dosen't matter which style, just if it works for you. I have a really good taekwondo text book, and I think I might just train solo. I have another question however, how can a TKD practitioner avoid knee injury - or knee reconstruction, from repeditive kicking? Anyway thanks again. - -jimmy jansen _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp ------------------------------ From: Piotr Bernat Date: Wed, 18 Jul 2001 22:46:10 +0200 Subject: the_dojang: Re: Seminars > People today seem to degrade those who study aspects of a martial art by > seminar learning vs day to day education with a instructor. I think both ways of learning have their merits. As for seminars, it is indeed hard to memorize say 30 new techniques presented during one day. However, I feel there is another important point in attending seminars. They`re not only about learning new technique, but also about perfecting the known one. Recently I practiced some techniques I really enjoyed. I knew them for quite a while and I (mistakenly) thought I do them quite well. Then, I was at a seminar when we did the same technique, and the instructor in charge came to me afterwards and showed me just a slight improvement of this already well-known element. I could have forgotten all the new techniques presented there, but this one improvement was really worth the time and $$$... :) - -- Piotr Bernat dantaekwondo@lublin.home.pl http://www.taekwondo.prv.pl ------------------------------ From: Piotr Bernat Date: Wed, 18 Jul 2001 22:35:40 +0200 Subject: the_dojang: Re: Patterns application > Can anyone say if the ITF have standardized their bunkai? Is there a block > of material that instructors can refer to in order to determine what > Gen.Choi meant for some of the more 'exotic' movements? While I was still in the ITF, the patterns were very rarely interpreted in the school I trained in. Only certain movements were explained more precise, like for example the hand release / sidekick combo in Hwa-Rang Tul. But as I watched a videotape from Gen. Choi`s seminar, he indeed did some - SOME - explanation. However, watching Shotokan people performing their kata with partners wasn`t something I saw in the ITF, or in any TKD at all. Just IMHO and AFAIK ;) Regards - -- Piotr Bernat dantaekwondo@lublin.home.pl http://www.taekwondo.prv.pl ------------------------------ From: Loucat101@aol.com Date: Thu, 19 Jul 2001 04:35:36 EDT Subject: the_dojang: Titles If a Black Belt male is a master, does that make a Black Belt female a mistress? I'm curious: I've never heard of a female master OR mistress... Louise ------------------------------ From: Ray Terry Date: Thu, 19 Jul 2001 6:40:10 PDT Subject: Re: the_dojang: Thanks for your answers, > ... Guns cannot > enhance your mind and body and give you a state of excellent health, even > enlightment. I would disagree here. Proper study and application of hojutsu (traditional firearms martial arts) or modern weaponcraft is excellent and, of course, highly effective. Recommended for all. Ray Terry raymail@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com ------------------------------ From: Brian Myers Date: Thu, 19 Jul 2001 08:31:51 -0500 Subject: the_dojang: Forms and Belts... This is in response to a couple of the current discussions. 1) The differences in forms 2) The acknowledgement of previous rank First, let me try to descibe the progression of techniques in the Songahm Taekwondo style forms. As a White Belt you start off by learning 2 stances (Front and Middle), 4 variations of both the front kick and the side kick, 2 types of punch, high blocks, low blocks, inner forearm blocks, and 1 type of knife hand strike. With this arsenal of "basics" you then learn an 18 movement form that describes E-W line. A little explination is needed here. All Songahm forms can be diagramed on an 8 pointed star, and when one looks at the ATA's Songahm Star you can begin to see where each pattern will go in that star. One point of the star points to each cardinal direction plus one for each 45 offset direction. All forms start in the center of the star "facing east", not literally, but a figurative east so as to allow turning movements to be given a left or right to a new direction n/s/e/w type of description. The White belt form for example starts in the center and runs out to the eastern pt. turns back to the west (on the same line), runs to the western pt., turns back east, and brings the student back to the center of the star, facing the same direction (east) as they began. This center-to-center, facing east at beginning and end format is followed by almost all ranks, there are a few exceptions just to keep the student on their toes! The next rank, that of orange belt, learns a new set of hand, foot, and blocking techniques and puts together an entirely new form, this time 21 moves in length and utilizing not only the "new" material, but agreat deal of the white belt material as well. This form traces a rectangle on the star long sides running E-W and short sides going first to the N and then back to the S at the "other end" of the rectangle. This progression of new techniques and longer forms continues troughout ALL ranks - including Dan ranks. All lower rank movements are taught 4 separate components. A punch for example is taught as a technique the has a "chambered" position, a proper movment of the striking hand, a proper use of the "other" hand as a force generator ("recoil") and a proper target and timing. Another important consideration in Songahm Forms is that of mirroring. At white belt the techniques are mirrored at the center point of the star, in other words if you do it with the right hand in the first half of the form, it will be done with the left hand in the second half. This mirror point changes as you progress in rank, and as a Dan holder (First Dan form - Shim Jun - 81 movements) the "mirrored" movements are not identicle, one may be done open-handed and its mirror may be done closed. In addition, the Dan forms also incorporate 45 degree movements on the star, the idea of "single-handed" techniques (ie no reaction force from the opposite side of the body), and "off-timing" or "half-chamber" techniques, all these items being scrutinized heavily by the instructors as it comes as a real surprise to a lot of 1st Dan students! The Songahm Style utilizes 9 lower rank forms, and 9 Dan forms. Along the way each student must also learn various sparring combinations, Self-Defenses, and as their rank increases 3 single weapon forms, 2 double weapons forms, joint manipulation, and pressure points and control tactics. This brings me to my other point. While the ATA allows for some recognition of rank in other forms, I agree many others in the DD. After having made the move from TKD to Aiki-Jutsu, I really believe that while my skills as a TKD practioner should be respected, when I stepped into that Aiki-Jutsu Dojo I was a BEGINNER! Their system only uses 3 "belt distinctions" white belt on white hakima (uniform), black belt on white hakima, and finally black belt on black hakima. If you do not put on that white belt as a student new to that particular art, you are fooling yourself! Show respect for those who have practiced your new art, and given of their blood and sweat to make that art their art. Besides, I personally would not want a brand new, no previous martial arts, student coming up to me in Aiki-Jutsu asking for help just because I was wearing the black belt - I wouldn't know where to begin, nor should I try and take that priviledge! Yours in the Martial Spirit, Brian ------------------------------ From: Ray Terry Date: Thu, 19 Jul 2001 7:21:53 PDT Subject: the_dojang: . ------------------------------ End of The_Dojang-Digest V8 #418 ******************************** It's a great day for Taekwondo! Support the USTU by joining today. 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