From: the_dojang-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com To: the_dojang-digest@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Subject: The_Dojang-Digest V8 #419 Reply-To: the_dojang@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Errors-To: the_dojang-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Precedence: The_Dojang-Digest Thur, 19 July 2001 Vol 08 : Num 419 In this issue: the_dojang: To: Jimmy Jansen - Caution the_dojang: Re: Kichos the_dojang: Re: Dojang insurance the_dojang: Re: Patterns application the_dojang: Re: Titles the_dojang: Jimmy's Comments the_dojang: Re: Titles the_dojang: Re: Thanks for your answers the_dojang: Songahm Weapons...Origins the_dojang: offtopic: titles the_dojang: Hyung the_dojang: Re: TKD Kicking injury the_dojang: REColorado/Denver TSD the_dojang: . ========================================================================= The_Dojang, serving the Internet since June 1994. ~1111 members strong! Copyright 1994-2001: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource The premier internet discussion forum devoted to the Korean Martial Arts. Replying to this message will NOT unsubscribe you. To unsubscribe, send "unsubscribe the_dojang-digest" (no quotes) in the body (top line, left justified) of a "plain text" e-mail addressed to majordomo@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com. To send e-mail to this list use the_dojang@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com See the Korean Martial Arts (KMA) FAQ and the online search engine for back issues of The_Dojang at http://www.MartialArtsResource.com Pil Seung! ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Brian Myers Date: Thu, 19 Jul 2001 09:26:03 -0500 Subject: the_dojang: To: Jimmy Jansen - Caution From: "Jim Jansen" Date: Thu, 19 Jul 2001 15:29:19 +1000 Subject: the_dojang: Thanks for your answers, Jimmy Wrote : "I really appreciate your replies, basically what you were saying is that the harder you train the better you will be. Craig you mentioned that gunpowder made martial arts obselete. I thouroghly disagree. Guns cannot enhance your mind and body and give you a state of excellent health, even enlightment. But I knew what you were saying though. So it dosen't matter which style, just if it works for you. I have a really good taekwondo text book, and I think I might just train solo. I have another question however, how can a TKD practitioner avoid knee injury - or knee reconstruction, from repeditive kicking? Anyway thanks again." First, let me caution you. While books are a great resource for the "seasoned" Martial Artist, I would not suggest them as a way of learning a new art. While they may contain pictures, and decent explanations, they cannot teach the smaller details of the movements. Only training with an experienced Martial Artist, and one who knows how to instruct, can you really learn a Martial Art. Second, your worry over knee injury is very valid. If you try to learn from a book, it would be very easy to fall victim to a knee, back, or ankle injury - possibly severe injury. By going to a good instructor with solid teaching and practicing experience you can avoid a great number of the common injuries. Let them guide you, teaching you the proper movements for each technique and how to avoid injuring yourself while doing maximum damage to your attacker. As for the knees, I have had 2 reconstructive surgeries on my right knee and need work done on my left knee (but I HATE surgery - and in general dislike doctors!). All of this damage was done skiing, never in my practice of TKD or at tournaments (and actually all occured BEFORE I ever started Martial Arts training!). I believe that a person can practice most Martial Arts safely until the day they pass away, a great example of this is a lady in our organization that is, I believe, 78 yrs old and still competes in sparring and forms! Yours in the Martial Spirit, Brian ------------------------------ From: "Dana Vaillancourt" Date: Thu, 19 Jul 2001 14:51:03 Subject: the_dojang: Re: Kichos Ray responded to an earlier post on Kicho Hyungs:. > >I believe that kicho (aka kibon?) just means 'basic', so the kicho/kibon >forms are the basic forms. I think GM Hwang Kee originally taught 3 kibons >(the forms perhaps down through Shotokan?), maybe the same with other four >original kwans. Other instructors have created their own variations. > >Ray Terry Ray. I was taught Kibon meant "foundational" (i.e., ok, close to "basic")and Kicho meant "basic/beginner." Different styles use these names for different forms, but you are right in their similarity. I believe the Chung Do Kwan has its own Kicho forms now numbering around six. I believe these forms are a vehicle for teaching basic technique versus the more typical self-defense scenario. Someone with a close relationship to GM PARK, Hae Man and the World CDK would propbaly much more familiar than I. Dana _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp ------------------------------ From: "Robert Martin" Date: Thu, 19 Jul 2001 09:17:56 -0600 Subject: the_dojang: Re: Dojang insurance > >From: Harold Whalen >Date: Wed, 18 Jul 2001 19:06:46 -0400 >Subject: the_dojang: Dojang insurance > >I have a question for the list I need Martial Arts Dojang coverage >what companies carry this ? And How much can we expect to pay? > > Hal > > I recently bought insurance from the Martial Arts Group, Inc. The price depends on the number of students, etc. It seems like good coverage. My wife is in the commercial insurance business and thought the coverage would work. You can contact them at 1-800-207-6603. They have ads in TKD Times and, I think, in Black Belt. Hope this helps, Robert Martin _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp ------------------------------ From: "Robert Martin" Date: Thu, 19 Jul 2001 09:23:16 -0600 Subject: the_dojang: Re: Patterns application > >From: Piotr Bernat >Date: Wed, 18 Jul 2001 22:35:40 +0200 >Subject: the_dojang: Re: Patterns application > > > Can anyone say if the ITF have standardized their bunkai? Is there a >block > > of material that instructors can refer to in order to determine what > > Gen.Choi meant for some of the more 'exotic' movements? > >While I was still in the ITF, the patterns were very rarely interpreted in >the school I trained in. Only certain movements were explained more >precise, like for example the hand release / sidekick combo in Hwa-Rang >Tul. But as I watched a videotape from Gen. Choi`s seminar, he indeed did >some - SOME - explanation. However, watching Shotokan people performing >their kata with partners wasn`t something I saw in the ITF, or in any TKD >at all. Just IMHO and AFAIK ;) > >Regards >- -- >Piotr Bernat >dantaekwondo@lublin.home.pl >http://www.taekwondo.prv.pl > > The full encyclopedia has a number of examples of application. However, General Choi has told us in seminars not to limit ourselves to what is in the book. His comment was along the lines: "I've given you the offensive technique, the defensive technique -- now you practice and develope application." I like to try different things with different technique and see what works. To me, that is the essence of hosinsul. Robert Martin A-4-336 _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp ------------------------------ From: "Robert Martin" Date: Thu, 19 Jul 2001 09:27:27 -0600 Subject: the_dojang: Re: Titles > >From: Loucat101@aol.com >Date: Thu, 19 Jul 2001 04:35:36 EDT >Subject: the_dojang: Titles > >If a Black Belt male is a master, does that make a Black Belt female a >mistress? I'm curious: I've never heard of a female master OR mistress... >Louise > Renee Sereff was the first women to test for 7th Dan Master in the ITF. We joked about what we would call her. General Choi solved that problem -- she became Master Sereff. I believe the Korean title used for Master Instructor is, I belive, without gender -- Sa Hyung Nim. It seems very natural to call her Master Sereff. Robert Martin 4th Dan ITF _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp ------------------------------ From: "Craig Stovall" Date: Thu, 19 Jul 2001 10:27:50 -0500 Subject: the_dojang: Jimmy's Comments Jimmy wrote, "Craig you mentioned that gunpowder made martial arts obselete. I thouroghly disagree. Guns cannot enhance your mind and body and give you a state of excellent health, even enlightment. But I knew what you were saying though." I'll only offer this for your consideration. Some studies have shown that the brain wave patterns of Olympic caliber marksmen (markspersons?) undergo remarkable changes the moments before firing their shot at the target. This results in momentary suppression of involuntary muscle control, and less eratic movement of the eyes...in essence, allowing them to make a better shot. The same studies have shown similar brain wave movements in karateka the moments before performing a breaking demo. IMHO, any activity that requires concentration will help one find their way into this "zone". As far as enlightenment...I am less than convinced that such a phenomenon exists. "I have another question however, how can a TKD practitioner avoid knee injury - or knee reconstruction, from repeditive kicking?" 1. Avoid fully extending the knee joint when performing kicks into the air. Besides protecting the knees, the eccentric braking required to prevent the knee from hyperextending is also a challenge to the coordination, and facilitates muscular development. 2. Find a competent instructor to help you find the "correct" form. "I have a really good taekwondo text book, and I think I might just train solo." See #2 above. _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp ------------------------------ From: SallyBaughn@aol.com Date: Thu, 19 Jul 2001 11:29:03 EDT Subject: the_dojang: Re: Titles Louise wrote: << If a Black Belt male is a master, does that make a Black Belt female a mistress? I'm curious: I've never heard of a female master OR mistress... >> I've known two females who attained "traditional" Master status (5th Dan) and several who attained current Master status (1st thru 4th Dan). They are all addressed as "Master." ------------------------------ From: "Jim Griffin" Date: Thu, 19 Jul 2001 11:37:29 -0400 Subject: the_dojang: Re: Thanks for your answers While I would be the last to discourage anyone from learning stuff from books, IMHO you would be much better served studying the art with a qualified instructor. Your book will make a good reference tool - I've been able to "learn" some of my forms from books (well enough that my instructors can correct me later on bits that I didn't get quite right) - but it really doesn't replace studying an art with people that know it. No matter how well the book is written, it can't spot problems with your technique nor can it show you new nuances to those techniques when you are ready for them. A good instructor can spot flaws in your kicking techniques (for example) and help you to avoid them so that you can preserve those knees of yours. :) An instructor can get out on the mat and get sweaty with you; that sort of thing just gets a book wet and yucky. Finally, an instructor can do a much better job than a book at nagging you into much needed practice. Out of curiosity, which TKD book did you get? I'm always on the lookout for interesting ones. - --- begin quoted text --- From: "Jim Jansen" Date: Thu, 19 Jul 2001 15:29:19 +1000 Subject: the_dojang: Thanks for your answers, Thankyou Craig, and Jim. I really appreciate your replies, basically what you were saying is that the harder you train the better you will be. Craig you mentioned that gunpowder made martial arts obselete. I thouroghly disagree. Guns cannot enhance your mind and body and give you a state of excellent health, even enlightment. But I knew what you were saying though. So it dosen't matter which style, just if it works for you. I have a really good taekwondo text book, and I think I might just train solo. I have another question however, how can a TKD practitioner avoid knee injury - or knee reconstruction, from repeditive kicking? Anyway thanks again. - - -jimmy jansen - --- end quoted text --- - ---===--- Jim Griffin www.wuma.com sitebuilder.liveuniverse.com/jgriffin/ _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp ------------------------------ From: "Craig Stovall" Date: Thu, 19 Jul 2001 10:44:43 -0500 Subject: the_dojang: Songahm Weapons...Origins For any of the ATA folks that might want to address this. What is the origin of the single and double stick material that is taught in the Songahm style? I believe this material is taught under the Protech umbrella, yes? The reason I ask is because what little I have seen of it looks remarkably similar to techniques from Filipino martial arts (Kali, Escrima, Arnis, etc.). Also, some "insiders" have told me that this material was adopted from FMA. I know that the Korean terms for single and double stick are used, but I can't help but think that this material is of Filipino origin (either in part, or in whole). Please note...I'm not trying to find fault here. I'm just curious as to where it came from. If it's not Filipino in origin, then what are the Korean arts from which this material is taken (given that Korean names are used)? Also, is this material only used for forms practice, or is actual application (strikes, blocks, deflections, disarms, locks, throws, etc) also shown? Appreciate any info. _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp ------------------------------ From: "G'irts Kalnins" Date: Thu, 19 Jul 2001 19:09:08 +0300 Subject: the_dojang: offtopic: titles Dear John, >In my work I do deal with people from other countries (usually visiting my >company), and I've found that the Americans around me tend to use the >honorifics from the visitor's country of origin..both in direct address and >in referring to the person. That was what I thought before, I have a feeling that Americans use English more eclectic than others. Is this the case with Korean title, too ? >As for broadening my own horizons..I take it from your email domain name >that you're from Latvia? How do people from your country address one >another? In the company of peers, young people, or older to younger Firstname or "tu" (the second person singular personal pronoun in the nominative case like 'thou' in ancient English). In official circumstances, respecful or honoric cases Lastname 'Lastname kungs(Mr.)' or "Ju's" ( the pronoun of the second person singular or plural). Like German "du und Sie", or Russian "Ty i Vy". The second language group in Latvia are russians. They usually use 'Firstname Fathersname', like "Michail Ivanovich" means Michail the son of Ivan. Titles are used in military, university. But almost only between insiders. If I'd call my friend "captain" (he is a captain of police) he would take this as a joke. Back to mat, G'irts btw. How many DD members use grass as their mat in summertime ? I like grass better than sweaty mats. ------------------------------ From: "Rudy Timmerman" Date: Thu, 19 Jul 2001 01:04:36 -0400 Subject: the_dojang: Hyung Dizzy writes: > One thing stressed very heavily at our Dojang is, when performing poomse > in class, to always start and end at the same time. We are told it should > sound like ONE person doing the form Hi Dizzy: After years of doing the very same thing, I have come to the conclusion that this practice may cause major problems for those who are significantly taller than their classmates. In order to keep up with them, they invariably shorten their stances and/or make other shortcuts in order to keep up with the pace of the team. Since it is my mandate to ensure each student progresses to his or her best ability, I now make sure students other than average size are allowed to practice hyung at a pace that is more comfortable and productive for them. RE: Kicho Hyung Richard: In the early days, only five Kicho Hyung (1-2-3-4-6) were usually taught. I even have tapes of Korean Masters performing just five. The six Kicho Hyung learned at Kuk Sool schools today are completely different than those of TSD. As far as I know, there are three traditional TSD Kichos. Sincerely, Rudy National Korean Martial Arts Association ------------------------------ From: "Mark M. Smith" Date: Thu, 19 Jul 2001 13:11:08 -0400 Subject: the_dojang: Re: TKD Kicking injury Jim, At 10:22 AM 7/19/2001 -0400, you wrote: >I have another question >however, how can a TKD practitioner avoid knee injury - or knee >reconstruction, from repeditive kicking? Anyway thanks again. I hear this question a lot. It assumes that because TKD involves lots of kicking techniques injuries are inevitable. This is NOT the case. You will only injury your knees if you use incorrect techniques that stress your knees. I know personally many TKD Masters who have been training for 20, 30, 40 or even 50+ years without knee problems. I myself have trained TKD for 20+ years without any knees problems. Many of these Masters have/had training regimes that are much more intense that the typical US martial artist, sometimes throwing 1000's of kicks a day 6-7 days a week. The fact that they have been able to do this for all these years demonstrates that the problem is not in the fact of kicking but in the technique that is being used. As to your question, "How can a TKD practitioner avoid knee injury - or knee reconstruction, from repetitive kicking?" The answer is to kick with correct technique. What is correct technique? Now that is hard to describe in an email. The best I can say is to avoid some common mistakes. 1.) Do not let the knee lock out (ie hyper-extend) during snap kicks (round house, front, twist, etc.). 2.) Keep the weight on the ball of your supporting foot so that it can easily pivot to avoid twisting stress to the knee during kicks. 3.) Avoid crescent kicks. These put a side load on the knee. The knee is designed for front/back and compression loads NOT side loads 4.) Strike using instep, heel, ball of foot, or sword edge of foot. A common problem is to strike roundhouse kicks not with instep, but half instep half inside of foot (ie hip has not been fully turned over at completion of technique.) On the plus side, make sure you do an extensive warm-up routine (min 15-20 minutes) including stretching of all leg/hip muscles before doing extensive kicking. The best answer remains to find a qualified instructor who know correct technique. Hope I have been on some help. Respectfully, Mark M. Smith Merrimack, NH ------------------------------ From: Gregory Giddins Date: Thu, 19 Jul 2001 12:33:07 -0600 Subject: the_dojang: REColorado/Denver TSD I finally found the school in/near Denver I posted about a couple days ago....it's Mountain Star , not Seven Star. Oops. If you're on the north end of town, it would probably be worth checking out. http://www.martial-arts-network.com/MtnStar/About_Us/about_us.htm Greg Giddins ------------------------------ From: Ray Terry Date: Thu, 19 Jul 2001 12:07:38 PDT Subject: the_dojang: . ------------------------------ End of The_Dojang-Digest V8 #419 ******************************** It's a great day for Taekwondo! Support the USTU by joining today. US Taekwondo Union, 1 Olympic Plaza, Ste 104C, Colorado Spgs, CO 80909 719-578-4632 FAX 719-578-4642 ustutkd1@aol.com http://www.ustu.org To unsubscribe from the_dojang-digest send the command: unsubscribe the_dojang-digest -or- unsubscribe the_dojang-digest your.old@address in the BODY (top line, left justified) of a "plain text" e-mail addressed to majordomo@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com. Old digest issues are available via ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com. Copyright 1994-2001: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource Standard disclaimers apply.