From: the_dojang-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com To: the_dojang-digest@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Subject: The_Dojang-Digest V8 #420 Reply-To: the_dojang@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Errors-To: the_dojang-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Precedence: The_Dojang-Digest Thur, 19 July 2001 Vol 08 : Num 420 In this issue: the_dojang: RE: ATA Weapon Origin the_dojang: Re: Dojang insurance coverage the_dojang: RE : Songahm Weapons...Origins the_dojang: RE: Kicho Hyung the_dojang: Re: The_Dojang-Digest V8 #412 the_dojang: RE : Songahm Weapons... OOPS! Re: the_dojang: RE: ATA Weapon Origin the_dojang: United Professionals the_dojang: Re:poomse vs hyung the_dojang: Re: Training in another style of Martial Art Re: the_dojang: Judo Gene the_dojang: Re: Knees the_dojang: Re: Kicho/Kibon Forms the_dojang: . ========================================================================= The_Dojang, serving the Internet since June 1994. ~1111 members strong! Copyright 1994-2001: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource The premier internet discussion forum devoted to the Korean Martial Arts. Replying to this message will NOT unsubscribe you. To unsubscribe, send "unsubscribe the_dojang-digest" (no quotes) in the body (top line, left justified) of a "plain text" e-mail addressed to majordomo@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com. To send e-mail to this list use the_dojang@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com See the Korean Martial Arts (KMA) FAQ and the online search engine for back issues of The_Dojang at http://www.MartialArtsResource.com Pil Seung! ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Ward, Jon" Date: Thu, 19 Jul 2001 11:56:54 -0700 Subject: the_dojang: RE: ATA Weapon Origin > From: "Craig Stovall" > Date: Thu, 19 Jul 2001 10:44:43 -0500 > Subject: the_dojang: Songahm Weapons...Origins > > What is the origin of the single and double stick material that is taught in > the Songahm style? I believe this material is taught under the Protech > umbrella, yes? > > The reason I ask is because what little I have seen of it looks remarkably > similar to techniques from Filipino martial arts (Kali, Escrima, Arnis, > etc.). Also, some "insiders" have told me that this material was adopted > from FMA. I know that the Korean terms for single and double stick are > used, but I can't help but think that this material is of Filipino origin > (either in part, or in whole). Hi Craig, The origin of the ATA single and double stick style is Inayan Eskrima. My instructor Suro Mike Inay, myself and several others instructors taught Master Lee (Protech) during his visit to California in I believe it was 94 or 95. It is indeed based on Filipino martial arts. The tape put out by Protech was all Inayan Eskrima. Also the Knife Defense system is based on Suro Inay's Reactive Knife System that he developed for PPCT for law enforcement. What modifications have been made since then I can not attest to. If you have any other questions please feel free to email me. Jon Ward Guro www.inayaneskrima.com ward@inayaneskrima.com Inayan Systems International ------------------------------ From: David Beck Date: Thu, 19 Jul 2001 14:00:53 -0500 (CDT) Subject: the_dojang: Re: Dojang insurance coverage Last I knew, the Martial Arts Group Inc coverage started at $390 a year and started going up from that when more than something like 20 students. I've forgotten the name of the other major insurance company that advertises in Black Belt; I think their minimum charge was $500 when I was with them about 6-7 years ago. I've no idea how either is on actual claims; and have fingers crossed that I never need to find out... David N. Beck, WATT Lead Engineer Internet: David.Beck@usa.alcatel.com Phone: 972-519-3103 Address: MS TAND1, 1000 Coit Road, Plano, Texas 75075 ** Opinions expressed are not those of Alcatel USA ** ------------------------------ From: Brian Myers Date: Thu, 19 Jul 2001 14:09:49 -0500 Subject: the_dojang: RE : Songahm Weapons...Origins Mr. Stovall, I am a 1st Dan in the ATA, and have done some, limited though it might be, background work on the forms and weapons of my chosen art. Here is what I know, and what I believe to be the "truth" of the matter... "What is the origin of the single and double stick material that is taught in the Songahm style?" The single and double stick (called Bong Mahng-Ee) material is quoted as being based on the use of the "ironing stick" of ancient Korea (although some still use this method of ironing today!) The premise is that the women of ancient Korea used a stick and a flat rock to beat the water out of freshly washed clothing, and by folding the clothing in a particular manner, obtain an "ironed" look. It is said that the women became so familiar with the use of the stick that they began to use it as a weapon of self-defense. This use then spread to everyone in the house as these items were always kept in a very accessible location in the house and were perfect for tight quarters self-defense. I tend to believe this "story" as a partial "truth". I think the lineage of the weapon's use would later include techniques used by both the Chinese and Japanese Martial Arts. This tends to be the way most weapons and techniques have developed, as there has historically been a lot of interaction between cultures in that area of the world. It is hard to believe that there is any "pure" form of Martial Arts practice. And that is just as well, we can all stand learn something from each other!! " I believe this material is taught under the Protech umbrella, yes?" Yes - Protech is the title applied to a system of weapons use taught by the ATA. It strives to teach each weapon as an individual weapon, but in a weapon-to-weapon consistant manner. This system uses the same terms and movement numbering system for the basics of each weapon, making the weapons easier to understand for the beginner. "The reason I ask is because what little I have seen of it looks remarkably similar to techniques from Filipino martial arts (Kali, Escrima, Arnis, etc.). Also, some "insiders" have told me that this material was adopted from FMA. I know that the Korean terms for single and double stick are used, but I can't help but think that this material is of Filipino origin (either in part, or in whole)." Again, yes, I believe you atleast partially correct. As for the term "insiders", well that could be just about anybody who has asked these same questions. To my knowledge the ATA has never made an issue of "hidding" the fact that we are an integrated art. We openly welcome other arts and techniques, and the system Eternal Grand Master Lee started with the Songahm Style is one of learning and dynamic change. Before his death, EGM Lee had began to teach the Senior ranks Tai Chi Chuan, with the intent to make some of its information and practice a mandatory part of Dan Rank material. "Please note...I'm not trying to find fault here. I'm just curious as to where it came from. If it's not Filipino in origin, then what are the Korean arts from which this material is taken (given that Korean names are used)?" I am more than happy to share what little knowledge I have on this matter. I do not feel that the search for knowledge of techniques or history can ever be classified as "finding fault". Those who feel that acknowledging "outside" influences on THEIR ART, in my experience, have been just been afraid of losing some sort of "mystique". I wish we, as Martial Artists, could get away from this idea of "my art is better than yours" and get down to the real business of being a Martial Artist - Learning! Yours in the Martial Spirit, Brian Myers Also, is this material only used for forms practice, or is actual application (strikes, blocks, deflections, disarms, locks, throws, etc) also shown? Appreciate any info. ------------------------------ From: Richard Zaruba Date: Thu, 19 Jul 2001 14:14:37 -0500 Subject: the_dojang: RE: Kicho Hyung Hello Master Rudy, The Kicho forms that I am speaking about are identical to those that were taught by GM Richard Chun and shown in his volume one and two of Moo Duk Kwan Tae Kwon Do. I was actually taught five or six separate kicho forms when I was in TKD. I can still remember practicing them for hours on end until they "flowed like river, with the power of a tidal wave" as my TKD instructor used to stress. We were taught Palgae and Chon Hong forms as well at the under-belt and black belt levels. Respectfully, Richard Zaruba > Richard: In the early days, only five Kicho Hyung (1-2-3-4-6) were usually > taught. I even have tapes of Korean Masters performing just five. The six > Kicho Hyung learned at Kuk Sool schools today are completely different than > those of TSD. As far as I know, there are three traditional TSD Kichos. > Sincerely, Rudy > National Korean Martial Arts Association ____________________________________________________________________________ Richard Zaruba University of North Dakota School of Medicine and Health Sciences Department of Anatomy and Cell Biology 501 North Columbia Road P.O. Box 9037 Grand Forks, ND 58202-9037 Off: (701) 777-3952 Lab: (701) 777-2576 Fax: (701) 777-2477 ------------------------------ From: David Beck Date: Thu, 19 Jul 2001 14:14:23 -0500 (CDT) Subject: the_dojang: Re: The_Dojang-Digest V8 #412 I haven't seen anyone else reply to Anthony Boyd's question on performing the same form you learned at white belt level as a black belt. > > So, should you act upon your ability to choose? Should you adjust the form >to reflect your new level of understanding or should you complete each form >or technique with your utmost precision and control, exactly as it was >taught to you? Should you choose one in the privacy of the empty dojang but >the other in the presence of your instructor? My opinion is that you adjust the form, while staying within the form's movements. IE you don't raise a stance, not chamber a fist, etc to reflect combat reality because forms are not about combat reality. But you do adjust timing and rythym some, you do add subtleties in shifts of weight -- a form has some individual interpretation to it. Performed in a group, yes, the group should stay together, but performed individually it can be very artistic. The form is the same; your interpretation of it is different. David N. Beck, WATT Lead Engineer Internet: David.Beck@usa.alcatel.com Phone: 972-519-3103 Address: MS TAND1, 1000 Coit Road, Plano, Texas 75075 ** Opinions expressed are not those of Alcatel USA ** ------------------------------ From: Brian Myers Date: Thu, 19 Jul 2001 14:24:22 -0500 Subject: the_dojang: RE : Songahm Weapons... OOPS! Mr. Stovall, I am sorry, I forgot to answer your last, and probably most important question! "Also, is this material only used for forms practice, or is actual application (strikes, blocks, deflections, disarms, locks, throws, etc) also shown?" A resounding yes to actual application! We start by teaching how to handle the weapon. Then before a form is ever attempted, a series of basics is taught including 9 striking angles, blocking techniques, and theory of weapon's use. Then we teach the form. As a result of teaching the form, where many times students string various techniques together for the first time, an awareness of how the weapon can be applied to joint locks, pressure points, and general defense is developed. As with all of our forms, we teach them as a form of "shadow boxing" - that is imagine your attacker and do your techniques as if your life depended on it! We try to steer students away from doing techniques and forms, both with weapons and empty handed, for the "oooohhhs and aaaahhhss" garnered by flashy technique. Once again thanks for the great questions! Brian Myers ------------------------------ From: Ray Terry Date: Thu, 19 Jul 2001 13:14:21 PDT Subject: Re: the_dojang: RE: ATA Weapon Origin > The origin of the ATA single and double stick style is Inayan > Eskrima. My instructor Suro Mike Inay, myself and several others instructors > taught Master Lee (Protech) during his visit to California in I believe it > was 94 or 95. It is indeed based on Filipino martial arts. The tape put out > by Protech was all Inayan Eskrima. Also the Knife Defense system is based on > Suro Inay's Reactive Knife System that he developed for PPCT for law > enforcement. I was waiting to see if Master Ward would reply. Yes, I concur with what Master Ward stated above. Suro Inay (RIP) was also my Eskrima instructor. Ray Terry raymail@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com ------------------------------ From: Richard Zaruba Date: Thu, 19 Jul 2001 14:43:51 -0500 Subject: the_dojang: United Professionals Hello everyone, I have a question for the school owners on the list. I would like to know what your opinion of United Professionals Martial Arts Management & Tuition Company is and why? I would like to hear about any experiences that you have had with them both good and bad, as well as what you believe are the pros and cons of their involvement in a school. Feel me to e-mail me privately about this matter. Thank you for your time and effort. Sincerely, Richard Zaruba ____________________________________________________________________________ Richard Zaruba University of North Dakota School of Medicine and Health Sciences Department of Anatomy and Cell Biology 501 North Columbia Road P.O. Box 9037 Grand Forks, ND 58202-9037 Off: (701) 777-3952 Lab: (701) 777-2576 Fax: (701) 777-2477 ------------------------------ From: JSaportajr@aol.com Date: Thu, 19 Jul 2001 15:59:31 EDT Subject: the_dojang: Re:poomse vs hyung I have a simple question. Why does the ITF refer to forms as "hyung" and the WTF refer to forms as "poomse"? Do these two words mean substantially the same thing, or is there a difference? Jose ------------------------------ From: ConcordTKD@aol.com Date: Thu, 19 Jul 2001 16:01:01 EDT Subject: the_dojang: Re: Training in another style of Martial Art If you are starting to train in another martial art do in correctly, start at the begining and work your way through. That means starting at white. If you ask for more you don't deserve it and the instructor shouldn't give it to you. (or maybe he should:)) John Murphy A-3-756 ITF/USTF ------------------------------ From: Creed71963@aol.com Date: Thu, 19 Jul 2001 16:52:08 EDT Subject: Re: the_dojang: Judo Gene In a message dated 07/19/2001 8:56:57 AM EST, Ray Terry writes: << Watching the movie Kickboxer 2 on cable. "Judo" Gene Lebell (The Man in Pink, http://www.maninpinkjudogene.com) is playing the ref for a kickboxing match. He brings the participants out to the center of the ring, turns to one and says, "Ok, Vargas, none of your wrestling bulls#*t". Sorry... it just cracked me up... >> All I could think about when I saw that is *"Judo" Gene Lebell" could clean both these guys clocks without working up a sweat*..... Craig ------------------------------ From: Piotr Bernat Date: Thu, 19 Jul 2001 22:52:36 +0200 Subject: the_dojang: Re: Knees > I have another question > however, how can a TKD practitioner avoid knee injury - or knee > reconstruction, from repeditive kicking? Anyway thanks again. Number 1 rule is don`t kick full power in the air. This is a killer for the knees. 10-12 years ago I did it during the classes because nobody really made sure that we don`t hurt ourselves. Now, I still recall these days when I have to demonstrate a kick (not a good feeling in the joints). Even when I do a pattern, I always try to tense the muscles just before the joint gets hyperextended. Also remember to work on strenghtening the legs. One of my young students had knee problems (he used to play soccer prior to TKD). After a medical treatment and doing some strength work on the legs he`s OK, and he really has very strong kicks as a bonus... ;) Regards - -- Piotr Bernat dantaekwondo@lublin.home.pl http://www.taekwondo.prv.pl ------------------------------ From: Piotr Bernat Date: Thu, 19 Jul 2001 22:43:03 +0200 Subject: the_dojang: Re: Kicho/Kibon Forms > I believe they where in one of > the Moo Duk Kwon books by GM Richard Chun, I think it was volume two but > I'm not sure. Hope this helps. Im "Moo Duk Kwan Tae Kwon Do - Korean Art of Self-Defense" vol. 1 there are three Kicho patterns, and in volume 2 five Kibon (they`re different patterns). But I also saw another variation of patterns named Kicho. In Europe, the French TKD federation used (or still uses ?) four patterns named Kicho which are different to both MDK Kicho and Kibon patterns. Regards - -- Piotr Bernat dantaekwondo@lublin.home.pl http://www.taekwondo.prv.pl ------------------------------ From: Ray Terry Date: Thu, 19 Jul 2001 15:21:49 PDT Subject: the_dojang: . ------------------------------ End of The_Dojang-Digest V8 #420 ******************************** It's a great day for Taekwondo! Support the USTU by joining today. US Taekwondo Union, 1 Olympic Plaza, Ste 104C, Colorado Spgs, CO 80909 719-578-4632 FAX 719-578-4642 ustutkd1@aol.com http://www.ustu.org To unsubscribe from the_dojang-digest send the command: unsubscribe the_dojang-digest -or- unsubscribe the_dojang-digest your.old@address in the BODY (top line, left justified) of a "plain text" e-mail addressed to majordomo@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com. Old digest issues are available via ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com. Copyright 1994-2001: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource Standard disclaimers apply.