From: the_dojang-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com To: the_dojang-digest@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Subject: The_Dojang-Digest V8 #425 Reply-To: the_dojang@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Errors-To: the_dojang-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Precedence: The_Dojang-Digest Sat, 21 July 2001 Vol 08 : Num 425 In this issue: the_dojang: Re: The_Dojang-Digest V8 #422 the_dojang: ATA and sticks the_dojang: Two Kukkiwon Textbooks - difference? the_dojang: Add me to the injured list :o( the_dojang: Re:Jackson, Miss. the_dojang: Re: The_Dojang-Digest V8 #424 the_dojang: My certificate the_dojang: : Re: WTF Certificates the_dojang: Re: KSHKD the_dojang: Re: ITF the_dojang: The ATA (long) the_dojang: . ========================================================================= The_Dojang, serving the Internet since June 1994. ~1111 members strong! Copyright 1994-2001: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource The premier internet discussion forum devoted to the Korean Martial Arts. Replying to this message will NOT unsubscribe you. To unsubscribe, send "unsubscribe the_dojang-digest" (no quotes) in the body (top line, left justified) of a "plain text" e-mail addressed to majordomo@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com. To send e-mail to this list use the_dojang@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com See the Korean Martial Arts (KMA) FAQ and the online search engine for back issues of The_Dojang at http://www.MartialArtsResource.com Pil Seung! ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Clothahump Date: Fri, 20 Jul 2001 18:58:32 -0500 Subject: the_dojang: Re: The_Dojang-Digest V8 #422 > From: Chereecharmello@aol.com > Date: Fri, 20 Jul 2001 10:31:23 EDT > Subject: the_dojang: Re: The_Dojang-Digest V8 #416 > > Are there any Texan's on the list? A wonderful family of 3 is moving from > Pennsylvania to Texas (Corpus Christi (-Sp.?) in a week. The 3 of them have > been training together in Tang Soo Do for over a year now and would like to > continue training when they move. > > They are looking for a school with a similar, well-rounded curriculum > (Sparring, self-defense, one-step, hyung (forms/patterns) grab-escape etc.) > Paula, the mother had looked through the phone book while visiting her new > area, but could only find Tae Kwon Do. > > Any help would be greatly appreciated. I will miss them dearly, so knowing > they have found a place to train would make me feel a lot better... Well, if they wind up going to a Taekwondo school, might as well go with the best: ATA TAEKWONDO USA OF CC J. R. CANTU 2649 CAMARGO DR. CORPUS CHRISTI, TX 78415 (361) 853-9512 Not that I'm biased in favor of ATA or anything like that, you understand :-) ------------------------------ From: Clothahump Date: Fri, 20 Jul 2001 19:02:53 -0500 Subject: the_dojang: ATA and sticks > > > From: "Ward, Jon" > Date: Fri, 20 Jul 2001 11:56:10 -0700 > Subject: the_dojang: Integrating the Art > > ...snip... > > Brian responded > > Again, yes, I believe you atleast partially correct. As for the term > > "insiders", well that could be just about anybody who has asked these same > > questions. To my knowledge the ATA has never made an issue of "hidding" > > the > > fact that we are an integrated art. > > > I would have to respectfuly disagree with the hiding of the ATA being an > integrated art. The techniques of Eskrima were taken and called Korean stick > fighting. > > Again no disrespect intended, just stating the facts as I see them. Not by the ATA itself. We have always presented the history of sticks as used in Korea, but at the same time, we freely acknowledge that what we teach is Escrima, because sticks in Korean martial arts were never as organized as they are in the Phillipines. ------------------------------ From: "T. Kennelly" Date: Fri, 20 Jul 2001 21:23:32 -0400 Subject: the_dojang: Two Kukkiwon Textbooks - difference? While looking through the Best Martial Arts catalog I noticed two Kukkiwon textbooks and was wondering what the difference might be. Both appear to be official Kukkiwon publications. The first is titled Taekwondo Textbook and the second is Kuk-ki Taekwondo Text Book. There is a considerable difference in the price with the first selling for $79 and the second for $25. ------------------------------ From: "Dizzy S." Date: Fri, 20 Jul 2001 21:58:55 -0400 Subject: the_dojang: Add me to the injured list :o( Hiya all. I'm not sure if I pushed myself a little too hard the past coupla days, or just got too "rough", but I pulled (or think I did) a hammy :o( Wednsday night, my sah bum nim "killed" us lol. He gets in these "hyper moods" and kills us with endurance. Lotta kicking (in the air and bag work), "line work" (doing each tech in a line "walking" down the floor and back), running jump kicks, sparring, ect. Then yesterday, I, among others from my school, were invited to a fellow student's school (she teaches at another school) for a sparring clinic. When I sparred someone from my school, I did get rough (we always "play rough" sometimes, but only with a certain few). This went on for an hour and a half. After the clinic, I went to my school for regular class. During regular class, my left leg started to hurt (the back of the thigh from the butt cheek down to the back of my knee). I thought I was just sore from the day before, so I stretched a little more and rejoined class. But during forms work, I felt a sharp pain in my leg. I had to bow out. I was hurting too bad. This morning when I woke up, my leg didn't hurt, but both were very stiff (the left more than the right). When I go to pick something up off the floor (like a box or something) at work, it hurt. I got "stiff" in the past, but never this bad. I'd take a coupla days off, and I would be fine. But this is different. Does anyone know of any "light" stretching (not like the stretching done in class .... I tried and it hurts) I could do to keep from getting "stiff" more, during my time off? Something that will work the "stiffness" out little by little? Any advice would help. Thanks in advance. Tang Soo! Dizzy 6th gup TSD www.imahq.net _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp ------------------------------ From: "Bruce Sims" Date: Fri, 20 Jul 2001 20:33:08 -0500 Subject: the_dojang: Re:Jackson, Miss. Dear Jere: "...I hope to see everyone there!..." The arrangements might be a bit tricky for me but I'm looking forward to it. Best Wishes, Bruce ------------------------------ From: "Bruce Sims" Date: Fri, 20 Jul 2001 20:38:20 -0500 Subject: the_dojang: Re: The_Dojang-Digest V8 #424 Dear Patrick: "...The teacher has a responsibility to the subject that trancends the responsibility to any individual student...." Your position and welcome to it. Best Wishes, Bruce ------------------------------ From: SungPaeKi@aol.com Date: Fri, 20 Jul 2001 22:16:01 EDT Subject: the_dojang: My certificate Piotr Bernat wrote: <> My certificate has a picture of the kukiwon in the center. On the top it has the Korean flag and the USA flag, with a boarder around it with flowers and some birds at the top, and on the bottom of the boarder there are 2 WTF logos. The actual certificate paper seems to have pictures from the Moyee Dobo Tonji (spelling) on it. The top is in Han-gul and says Dan Jung and there is a serial # which is Jae '9511027' Hoe. Under that in Han-gul it says Chang-moo Kwan Tae kwon do EE Dan. It says my name in Hangul and some other Han-gul writing. Off to the top right of the Kukiwon is a red stamp, that looks to be Chinese. Under the picture of the Kukiwon it says Black Belt Dan Certificate and under that it says American association of Korean Martial Art in English. Under that it says We are proud to certify that Joshua J. Cather is hereby awarded the international rank of Black Belt 2nd Dan, in the art of Tae Kwon Do. The above named has met the qualifications set by the world! Tae kwon do federation, has exc elled in the special skills of the martial arts, and has acted with honor, respect, self-confidence, and discipline. In testimony whereof, we have here unto subscribed our names and have caused the seal to be affixed hereto, this day of 12 November 1995. Then it has Two places to sign, and says master under the lines. That's what my certificate looks like, if I had a scanner I'd send it to you. Maybe its an older one I don't know, Maybe it's one just used by AAKMA. Does anyone know if there is anyway that I can check the serial number somewhere? Joshua Cather 1st Dan Hapkido 2nd Tae Kwon Do ------------------------------ From: "Dana Vaillancourt" Date: Sat, 21 Jul 2001 02:59:52 Subject: the_dojang: : Re: WTF Certificates Piotr and Ray are both right. Piotr regarding the WTF/KKW certificates not saying "qualifications set by the World Taekwondo Federation" (although the Sang Moo Sa stock "look-alike" certificate does). And, Ray saying the WTF logo was on the KKW certificates (between circa 1985-1987). Dana _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp ------------------------------ From: Piotr Bernat Date: Fri, 20 Jul 2001 21:32:18 +0200 Subject: the_dojang: Re: KSHKD > Hello Piotr: > That version of name has been around for a long time. When I first became > a student of KS in the sixties, it was named that by Master Pak (my first > KS Instructor). In fact, my first certificates bore that name. I believe > trademark issues made it necessary to change this. Sincerely, Rudy I know that the term Kuk Sool Hapkido was used once in a time, but I didn`t know it was the same as today`s KSW. What really surprised me was the fact that I heard it again during this year`s MA festival, especially since I watched the footage from different previous years` events and everywhere the style mentioned was Kuk Sul Won. I doubt it was just a mistake by the announcer, therefore I was simply interested if this is a sign of some stronger bonds between KSW and HKD groups, or someting else? Regards - -- Piotr Bernat dantaekwondo@lublin.home.pl http://www.taekwondo.prv.pl ------------------------------ From: Piotr Bernat Date: Fri, 20 Jul 2001 21:37:26 +0200 Subject: the_dojang: Re: ITF > As far a being original TKD, you'll get many different answers. The only > thing I can say is that General Choi was the first one to use the > Taekwon-Do for the martial art that he was teaching. That`s a great statement. If we would all follow this example, maybe we could avoid some heated discussion about which style is original, recognized, more Korean, has a bigger master, better looking forms (or doboks ;)... A humble opinion by a TKD man: > Robert Martin > 4th Dan ITF/USTF (BaiRui is a sister orignization to the USTF) Regards - -- Piotr Bernat 3rd Dan Kukkiwon dantaekwondo@lublin.home.pl http://www.taekwondo.prv.pl ------------------------------ From: CKCtaekwon@cs.com Date: Sat, 21 Jul 2001 09:02:53 EDT Subject: the_dojang: The ATA (long) There's been a considerable amount of discussion recently on the ATA. I realize that the ATA is the largest TKD organization out there and has done a lot of good for the martial arts, but I have to admit that I have a very hard time taking the ATA seriously. (hold the arrows til the end of this post) I've been involved in TKD since 1976 and somewhere in those early years we began hearing the statement "if you want to earn your black belt in a year and a half, just join the ATA". This was in a time that it took several years (4 +) to earn your black belt in TKD. So I must admit, since the early years, I've had a bias against the ATA. The ATA was considered a joke by the TKD family I was involved in. The derogatory comments and jokes did not disapate over the years, even with my move from Kansas to South Texas many years ago. I must admit during those years I never saw an ATA school or an ATA Black Belt (none around where I lived), so it's interesting that the reputation traveled to Kansas and was also prevalent in my new adopted home of South Texas. The comments were probably started and spread by the Texkwondo guys! More recently I've had experience with a couple of the organization's schools and/or black belts. A man and women opend an ATA school in my community a few years ago. To launch their school, they performed a demonstration at the local county fair. They brought in seasoned black belts from their headquarter school in a town about 30 miles away. Being curious and also scouting out the new competition, I went to the demo. It was actually quite embarrassing. I've done many and been to many martial arts demonstrations, but that was the first time I felt embarrassed and wanted to hide. They were horrible (I was thrilled, despite my embarrassment as a martial artist). Their boards did not break, their performance of their forms were terrible, and the crowd actually hissed, jeered, and laughed at them. I kid you not. The head instructor of the new school lived down the street from me and did so for about 4 years (their school lasted less than 2 years before going out of business), so i spoke with them on occassion. I invited them several times to come train with us in my school, not once did they ever do so. I invited them to my friendly, by invitation only, tournaments, not once did they come. In one conversation with them, I was told that her 2nd dan plus teaching certificate cost her $700 !!!!!!!!!!! Two years ago I had one of my tkd families move to another small town in Texas (Burnett, TX). Their two children were deputy black belts in my school (1st gup). They went to the local ATA school and watched them play dodge ball for nearly an hour. Not one kick thrown the entire hour. In speaking with the school's owner/head instructor, when my family told the instructor that they had been in tkd for 2 1/2 years, the instructor said "what! and you are not a black belt yet? Join my school and I'll have you both as black belts in three months". Needless to say, they did not join that school and traveled once a week well over and hour one way to continue training here. I know there are some very good ATA schools out there. Two years ago i had a new student move in from Eagle's Nest, NM. she was a blue belt in the ATA school there, owned by Mr. and Mrs. Ronald Anderson. This girl was good, she kept her rank, and just a few months ago was promoted to black belt. In fact I respected her previous instructors so much that i invited them to sit on the testing board and to participate in the ceremony. They came, and I now have new friends in the ATA community and more importantly, in one of my favorite vacation spots! :) Now, I have to admit that when I think of the ATA, I think of it in the same contents that many of you hapkido traditionalist think of Combat Hapkido. Now I have no problem with CH, so I am wondering if my ATA "experience" is flawed. Michael Rowe does an excellent job in representing the ICHF, perhaps an ATA member can begin to improve my image and would like to address these concerns I have. I also read, so don't know if it's true or not, that the ATA put an image of it's founder as the karate guy on its trophies. I find this hard to beleive as it conjures up the word "cult" in my mind. Your comments welcome! gary pieratt ------------------------------ From: Ray Terry Date: Sat, 21 Jul 2001 7:12:03 PDT Subject: the_dojang: . ------------------------------ End of The_Dojang-Digest V8 #425 ******************************** It's a great day for Taekwondo! Support the USTU by joining today. US Taekwondo Union, 1 Olympic Plaza, Ste 104C, Colorado Spgs, CO 80909 719-578-4632 FAX 719-578-4642 ustutkd1@aol.com http://www.ustu.org To unsubscribe from the_dojang-digest send the command: unsubscribe the_dojang-digest -or- unsubscribe the_dojang-digest your.old@address in the BODY (top line, left justified) of a "plain text" e-mail addressed to majordomo@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com. Old digest issues are available via ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com. Copyright 1994-2001: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource Standard disclaimers apply.