From: the_dojang-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com To: the_dojang-digest@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Subject: The_Dojang-Digest V8 #428 Reply-To: the_dojang@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Errors-To: the_dojang-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Precedence: The_Dojang-Digest Sun, 22 July 2001 Vol 08 : Num 428 In this issue: the_dojang: Re: stretching the_dojang: KSWHKD the_dojang: Training the_dojang: Re: The ATA (long) the_dojang: Re: ATA question the_dojang: Korean Culture the_dojang: . ========================================================================= The_Dojang, serving the Internet since June 1994. ~1111 members strong! Copyright 1994-2001: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource The premier internet discussion forum devoted to the Korean Martial Arts. Replying to this message will NOT unsubscribe you. To unsubscribe, send "unsubscribe the_dojang-digest" (no quotes) in the body (top line, left justified) of a "plain text" e-mail addressed to majordomo@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com. To send e-mail to this list use the_dojang@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com See the Korean Martial Arts (KMA) FAQ and the online search engine for back issues of The_Dojang at http://www.MartialArtsResource.com Pil Seung! ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Melissa Lambton" Date: Sun, 22 Jul 2001 16:01:37 +0100 Subject: the_dojang: Re: stretching > From: Dean Johnson > Date: Fri, 20 Jul 2001 12:33:36 -0700 (PDT) > Subject: the_dojang: TSD kicking technique and streches > > Could anyone point me to books, video or internet > resources that would give me information on proper > kicking technique for TSD-style kicks (instruction, > drills, stretching **especially stretching**). I am > 10th Gup and would like to supplement my > solo-practices with such a guide. > > Ko Mup Sum Ne Da > Tang Soo! > Dean, I would recommend that you look for a book called Stretching Scientifically by Thomas Kurz. You can get this from amazon or directly from his web site www.stadion.com . Mr Kurz describes excellent stretching and strengthening techniques which have definately improved my flexibility. I am a TKD practioner, but I'm sure this book will be able to help any martial artist seeking greater flexibility. Good luck and enjoy. Taekwon, Melissa ------------------------------ From: "Rudy Timmerman" Date: Sun, 22 Jul 2001 00:49:08 -0400 Subject: the_dojang: KSWHKD Piotr writes: > I know that the term Kuk Sool Hapkido was used once in a time, but I didn`t > know it was the same as today`s KSW. Hello Piotr: From what I have experienced, todays WKSA KSW is definitely NOT the same as what I was taught before in KSWHKD. Perhaps GM Seo has kept the older version alive and kicking:) He would most certainly have the expertise in both versions. Sincerely, Rudy ------------------------------ From: "Rudy Timmerman" Date: Sun, 22 Jul 2001 01:33:48 -0400 Subject: the_dojang: Training Dizzy writes: > I got yelled at before for "learning too much". I know stuff I'm not > supposed to know yet, plus "tricks", as they call it in MA. Someone asked me > the other day if I lived at the dojang. Hi Dizzy: You hit on one of my pet subjects. Getting better at the material you have been taught, means only one thing -- more practice of the same old thing. This is unfortunately not a strong point of many students today, and many Instructors "give in" to the expectations of their students to want more (instead of wanting better). I held a major test this weekend and, as it went along, a few students demonstrated some things outside of their curriculum. When I asked one of these students to come "front center" and show me everything he "knew", he almost went an entire belt above his curriculum. When I asked that same student to show me his first form, he had a hard time remembering it. After thanking this student for his demonstration, I assembled my Black Belts to (once again) point out the errors in their perception of "teaching". This student, unbeknowned to him, wonderfully demonstrated something I had a hard time making my Black Belts believe with mere words. I use tests as a tool to "check up" on my Black Belts and Instructors as well as the students. There are many things a Black Belt must learn before s/he can be called an Instructor, and learning how to disguise repetition is a major component. Most novice "Instructors" make the same mistake in their eagerness to share the material they know. They do not seem to realize that sharing is NOT teaching. Teaching is a skill few Black Belts have a knack for, and having the patience to help a student become more proficient at his given portion of curriculum is very difficult. Most novice teachers hide their inexperience by showing more and more stuff. In the end, this results in the student learning very little, but "knowing" a whole lot of nothing. BTW, I actually DID live in my Masters's dojang for quite a while. Living there meant to clean, cook, open, close, teach, keep books, and a myriad of other things. Yet, I did not expect (or want) to learn anything more than I should for my rank. I felt, and still feel, that learning MORE is not the same as learning to do things better. Although I did not think that at the time, it is one of the most valuable lessons my late father {a true (old European) Master Cabinet Maker} ever taught me when I was young. Sincerely, Rudy National Korean Martial Arts Association ------------------------------ From: Clothahump Date: Sun, 22 Jul 2001 15:32:13 -0500 Subject: the_dojang: Re: The ATA (long) > From: CKCtaekwon@cs.com > Date: Sat, 21 Jul 2001 09:02:53 EDT > Subject: the_dojang: The ATA (long) > > There's been a considerable amount of discussion recently on the ATA. I > realize that the ATA is the largest TKD organization out there and has done a > lot of good for the martial arts, but I have to admit that I have a very > hard time taking the ATA seriously. (hold the arrows til the end of this > post) > > I've been involved in TKD since 1976 and somewhere in those early years we > began hearing the statement "if you want to earn your black belt in a year > and a half, just join the ATA". This was in a time that it took several > years (4 +) to earn your black belt in TKD. So I must admit, since the early > years, I've had a bias against the ATA. The ATA was considered a joke by the > TKD family I was involved in. Over the years, the ATA has developed an excellent teaching style and a very well developed curriculum. It works - very well. And some people can't handle other people's success, so they badmouth the organization. I've been involved deeply with the ATA since 1987. I had to sweat blood for each rank that I earned, and believe me, they were earned and not bought. I have never seen anyone, in my school or any other ATA school that I am familiar with, earn the rank of 1st Degree Black Belt in a year and a half, with the exception of people that had prior training in another style and transferred into the ATA at an advanced colored belt rank. I'm not saying we don't have some bad apples in the barrel. Even with the ATA's rigorous instructor development program, we occasionally have one or two slip through. And as I have said before, in this forum and others, it only takes one person to pee in the pool and spoil it for everybody else. > The derogatory comments and jokes did not disapate over the years, even with > my move from Kansas to South Texas many years ago. I must admit during those > years I never saw an ATA school or an ATA Black Belt (none around where I > lived), so it's interesting that the reputation traveled to Kansas and was > also prevalent in my new adopted home of South Texas. The comments were > probably started and spread by the Texkwondo guys! As I said above, we've had to put up with this all along. The organization as a whole just shrugs it off as jealousy and sour grapes, and quietly keeps on doing things better and better. > More recently I've had experience with a couple of the organization's schools > and/or black belts. A man and women opend an ATA school in my community a few > years ago. To launch their school, they performed a demonstration at the > local county fair. They brought in seasoned black belts from their > headquarter school in a town about 30 miles away. Being curious and also > scouting out the new competition, I went to the demo. It was actually quite > embarrassing. I've done many and been to many martial arts demonstrations, > but that was the first time I felt embarrassed and wanted to hide. They were > horrible (I was thrilled, despite my embarrassment as a martial artist). > Their boards did not break, their performance of their forms were terrible, > and the crowd actually hissed, jeered, and laughed at them. I kid you not. > > The head instructor of the new school lived down the street from me and did > so for about 4 years (their school lasted less than 2 years before going out > of business), so i spoke with them on occassion. I invited them several times > to come train with us in my school, not once did they ever do so. I invited > them to my friendly, by invitation only, tournaments, not once did they come. > In one conversation with them, I was told that her 2nd dan plus teaching > certificate cost her $700 !!!!!!!!!!! > > Two years ago I had one of my tkd families move to another small town in > Texas (Burnett, TX). Their two children were deputy black belts in my school > (1st gup). They went to the local ATA school and watched them play dodge ball > for nearly an hour. Not one kick thrown the entire hour. In speaking with the > school's owner/head instructor, when my family told the instructor that they > had been in tkd for 2 1/2 years, the instructor said "what! and you are not a > black belt yet? Join my school and I'll have you both as black belts in three > months". > > Needless to say, they did not join that school and traveled once a week well > over and hour one way to continue training here. As I mentioned, we're not perfect. I don't defend the bad apples and I'm glad when something happens and ATA winds up inviting them to go elsewhere. > I know there are some very good ATA schools out there. Two years ago i had a > new student move in from Eagle's Nest, NM. she was a blue belt in the ATA > school there, owned by Mr. and Mrs. Ronald Anderson. This girl was good, she > kept her rank, and just a few months ago was promoted to black belt. In fact > I respected her previous instructors so much that i invited them to sit on > the testing board and to participate in the ceremony. They came, and I now > have new friends in the ATA community and more importantly, in one of my > favorite vacation spots! :) > > Now, I have to admit that when I think of the ATA, I think of it in the same > contents that many of you hapkido traditionalist think of Combat Hapkido. Now > I have no problem with CH, so I am wondering if my ATA "experience" is > flawed. Michael Rowe does an excellent job in representing the ICHF, perhaps > an ATA member can begin to improve my image and would like to address these > concerns I have. Well, I'd like to try. I'm proud to be in the ATA. It is an extended family for me and I cannot help but agree that your experience is somewhat flawed. I'll try to answer any questions that you have, either here in the DJD or via e-mail if you prefer. > I also read, so don't know if it's true or not, that the ATA put an image of > it's founder as the karate guy on its trophies. I find this hard to beleive > as it conjures up the word "cult" in my mind. Not a cult, by any means. I believe GM H. U. Lee was put on the trophies for World Championships 1999 because by that time, it was known to the seniors that he was fighting cancer. It wasn't announced to the rest of us until early 2000 because they wanted to see how he would respond to the first round of treatment. He appeared at World Championships in June 2000, and that was his last formal appearance with his ATA family. He died in October 2000, and just last June, the ATA inaugurated Chief Master S. H. Lee as the new 9th Degree and Grand Master. GM H. U. Lee was a very charismatic person. He was a man with a vision who made his vision become reality. He was an incredible motivater. The ATA's unofficial motto came from his early days in the USA, when he didn't speak much English and communicated with a dictionary in one hand. When he expressed his dream of having an ATA school in every city in the USA, he was told it wasn't possible. He looked up some words and said, "Today not possible - tomorrow possible." ------------------------------ From: Clothahump Date: Sun, 22 Jul 2001 15:54:06 -0500 Subject: the_dojang: Re: ATA question > From: "Bruce Sims" > Date: Sat, 21 Jul 2001 08:44:04 -0500 > Subject: the_dojang: Re:ATA Question ...snip... > It would help if someone who has first hand experience with the ATA could help me clear up the actual nature of the organization. Thanks. > Well, I'll give it a shot. When the ATA was founded in 1969, we taught Gen. Choi's forms. Master Lee wasn't satisified with them and did a tremendous amount of research on the traditional, historical styles of Korean martial arts and developed a new style called Songahm (Pine Tree and Rock) that emphasized kicking much more than the other forms currently being practiced. In addition, the ATA developed a unified teaching approach and instructor certification system, which at that time, no one else had. About 5 or 6 years ago, GM. H. U. Lee began incorporating weapons training into the curriculum. His reasoning was that the best way to learn to defend against an attack with a weapon was to learn to use the weapon correctly in the first place. He likened it to a college education - Taekwondo is the major, and the weapons are electives that support the major. Now, there are some who would say that, because we no longer teach "just" Taekwondo, we are not a "traditional" Taekwondo style any more. And to some degree, GM Lee agreed with that. In an interview in Fall of 2000, he said, "... The reason is when I created Songahm Taekwondo, I modified traditional Taekwondo. "There are three kinds of Taekwondo Martial Arts. First is professional Taekwondo...only certain people can do it. Competition Taekwondo is the same. That's for young people. Traditional Taekwondo is one of a kind. Traditional is for everybody, from the 3 year old up to the 80 year old. Also, we have handicapped people learning Taekwondo. That is the true martial arts and the true philosophy." When he was asked specifically about weapons and why he started the Protech System (the weapons division of the ATA), he replied, "First, they have to learn Songahm Taekwondo....After that, I developed Protech for weapons because they enjoy it and it gives them something new to learn and train with. Maybe next decade, I'll start something else." But the ATA will always be first and foremost about Songahm Taekwondo. The interview closed with this: Int. : "What's your dream for my future?" Lee: "...I set up the Songahm Taekwondo path. You can be whatever you want to." Int.: "So, anyone can do it? You start with White Belt, all the way to Black Belt and then Master and even Grand Master. You made a complete path for anybody and it's going to make Songahm last forever. Is that it?" Lee: "That's what I set it up for." ------------------------------ From: mtomlins@mail.volusia.k12.fl.us Date: Sun, 22 Jul 2001 19:12:55 -0400 Subject: the_dojang: Korean Culture Lately I've noticed a trend on here of many people "concerned" with the "true" Korean Culture and the "true" Korean Weapons, I have also noticed that none of these people are actually Korean!! Listening to people talk about how the Korean Culture is being altered or not represented correctly by non Koreans is pretty hilarious. The last time I checked I was living in the United States! And so are most of you! Do you understand how ludicrous it sounds to be discussing your interpretation of Korean Culture when you live somewhere like Chicago!! Can't we move on? I couldn't care less about what is considered a "true" Korean weapon or not.. I like American weapons, things like Colt, and Smith and Wesson.. I like practicing with the "traditional weapons" but come on,, I don't worry about someone drawing a sword on me or a Korean Fan,,,etc.. I am more concerned with a knife and a firearm,,, we are in the United States remember,,, not the Silla Kingdom!! Michael Tomlinson **************************************************************************** This email and any files transmitted with it are confidential and intended solely for the use of the individual or entity to whom they are addressed. If you have received this email in error please notify the system manager at administrator@volusia.k12.fl.us. **************************************************************************** ------------------------------ From: Ray Terry Date: Sun, 22 Jul 2001 18:41:02 PDT Subject: the_dojang: . ------------------------------ End of The_Dojang-Digest V8 #428 ******************************** It's a great day for Taekwondo! Support the USTU by joining today. US Taekwondo Union, 1 Olympic Plaza, Ste 104C, Colorado Spgs, CO 80909 719-578-4632 FAX 719-578-4642 ustutkd1@aol.com http://www.ustu.org To unsubscribe from the_dojang-digest send the command: unsubscribe the_dojang-digest -or- unsubscribe the_dojang-digest your.old@address in the BODY (top line, left justified) of a "plain text" e-mail addressed to majordomo@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com. Old digest issues are available via ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com. Copyright 1994-2001: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource Standard disclaimers apply.