From: the_dojang-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com To: the_dojang-digest@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Subject: The_Dojang-Digest V8 #430 Reply-To: the_dojang@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Errors-To: the_dojang-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Precedence: The_Dojang-Digest Mon, 23 July 2001 Vol 08 : Num 430 In this issue: the_dojang: Re: Korean Culture the_dojang: Re: The_Dojang-Digest V8 #425 the_dojang: Re: The_Dojang-Digest V8 #429 the_dojang: Meditation? the_dojang: Re: Roundhouse Kick the_dojang: RE: Certifications the_dojang: Roudhouse Kicks the_dojang: Round house Kicks Re: the_dojang: Re: Roundhouse Kick the_dojang: RE: More Songham Stuff the_dojang: Hom do: seeking information on the art Re: the_dojang: Meditation? the_dojang: . ========================================================================= The_Dojang, serving the Internet since June 1994. ~1111 members strong! Copyright 1994-2001: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource The premier internet discussion forum devoted to the Korean Martial Arts. Replying to this message will NOT unsubscribe you. To unsubscribe, send "unsubscribe the_dojang-digest" (no quotes) in the body (top line, left justified) of a "plain text" e-mail addressed to majordomo@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com. To send e-mail to this list use the_dojang@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com See the Korean Martial Arts (KMA) FAQ and the online search engine for back issues of The_Dojang at http://www.MartialArtsResource.com Pil Seung! ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Bruce Sims" Date: Mon, 23 Jul 2001 08:51:24 -0500 Subject: the_dojang: Re: Korean Culture Dear Mike: "...Lately I've noticed a trend on here of many people "concerned" with the "true" Korean Culture and the "true" Korean Weapons, I have also noticed that none of these people are actually Korean!!...." I think you point is well taken and I can only answer for myself. I respond not as a person who lives just outside of Chicago (which BTW holds one of the single largest Korean populations in North America). Nor am I responding as a practitioner of Korean MA per se. I'll go you one better and even leave off responding as a teacher, counselor or student for just a moment. How about we just take a look at people respecting people? We Americans have this nasty habit of barging into other peoples' cultures and taking what we like, damning what we don't like and deriding just about everything else. Our missionaries denigrate belief systems that are centuries old, our corporate and banking interests bully alien economies, and our military and intelligence communities intimidate while undercutting and dictating foreign policies among cultures. The Korean culture is a very ancient and revered culture in our world today. It is not particularly great or special as these things go, I suppose. They have had a turbulent history and quite a bit of whats happened to them they probably brought onto themselves in many ways. The Koreans as a people have their faults and have made their mistakes, so you will understand, I'm sure, if you hear me balk at nominating some self-appointed personality or leader for sainthood based mostly on his say-so. I'll bet you and I both are probably pretty sick and tired of the same self-inflating bozo-s who exploited western ignorance of Korean culture and language to elevate themselves to positions of prestige or regard here in the West. This is the sentiment that drives comments like my post a little bit back about making our posts less personality and politically driven than informational and analytical. But now, lets turn the coin over, because I don't think we are well-served by going too far the other way either. Training in arts that go back generations if not centuries is not exclusively about combat efficiency or effectiveness. As I have said on many occasions; if that is the case a 9mm Glock would save me a helluva lot of time and trouble. And you are absolutely right. I don't expect to meet someone carrying a sword, cane,or staff on the street. Instead, Korean culture, for me at least, holds in its martial tradition keys understanding our relationships among the people we meet. Korean martial culture provides not only a code of values and deportment, but also a manner of applying that code in our daily lives. Now-- the trick is, in order to get the most out of this understanding and applying this code I can't just walk into Korean culture and decide for myself what it is I am going to take, what I am going to do, or what I am going to substitute for those things I don't care for. Its a package-- a cultural package. So--- on the one hand I must be careful not to get sucked into a situation where someone identifies themselves as the single source of all Korean truth, and--- on the other hand I must be careful to subscribe as closely as possible to the culture as it is rather than how I would like it to be. This is the balancing act that I think we all do. Sometimes people fall off to oneside or the other but I think we are all wanting to do the same thing. I think we are all wanting to get as close to what constitutes that culture which has been able to survive for such a long time and imbue our own lives with those qualities. There are a lot of cultures out there. Some people select Japanese culture, Some Chinese, some English and French and Italian. I picked Korean. Just some Monday morning thoughts. Best Wishes, Bruce ------------------------------ From: Chereecharmello@aol.com Date: Mon, 23 Jul 2001 10:31:27 EDT Subject: the_dojang: Re: The_Dojang-Digest V8 #425 In a message dated 7/21/01 9:47:47 AM Eastern Daylight Time, the_dojang-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com writes: << I got "stiff" in the past, but never this bad. I'd take a couple days off, and I would be fine. But this is different. Does anyone know of any "light" stretching (not like the stretching done in class .... I tried and it hurts) I could do to keep from getting "stiff" more, during my time off? Something that will work the "stiffness" out little by little? Any advice would help. Thanks in advance. Tang Soo! Dizzy 6th gup TSD www.imahq.net >> Be careful, Dizzy. Muscle stiffness can be a sign of dehydration. It is possible that you just overworked yourself, but I would rest a few days. Continue to do some light stretching (yoga is a great supplement to MA training!). After a really strenuous workout, I always eat a banana and drink plenty of water. The banana is loaded with potassium (K) that replenished your electrolytes and helps w/ night muscle-cramps. Hope your just overworked! Tang Soo! - -Cheree ------------------------------ From: "Clifford Vaught" Date: Mon, 23 Jul 2001 14:34:46 Subject: the_dojang: Re: The_Dojang-Digest V8 #429 Thanks Ray - that's exactly correct. In Soo Bahk Do Moo Duk Kwan, one of the distinguishing features is the use of the hip in all techniques. The roundkick is not just a flicking kick involving the leg from the knee down or even just the leg. I cannot speak to the Japanese roundkick at all or even how the roundkick might be different amongst the various Tang Soo Do stylists and Tae Kwon Do. I know when I was studying in the Norris system, use of the hip was not a topic so the roundkick was mostly, if not all, leg. Soo Bahk!! Cliff - ------------------------------ From: Ray Terry Date: Sun, 22 Jul 2001 21:33:05 PDT Subject: Re: the_dojang: Korean Roundhouse kick vs Japanese Roundhouse kick > Just for the purpose of learning and deeper understanding , I am curious as > to what this group knows about the differences between a Korean Roundhouse > kick and the Japanese Roundhouse kick. As we all know that the Korean > roundhouse uses the instep, while the Japanese emphazise with the base of > toes. I'll just mention briefly the Korean roundhouse can be with either the instep or the ball of the foot, it is not an instep only kick. Use the ball of the foot for power breaks and better penetration into the target or between blocking arms. Other thoughts? Ray Terry raymail@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp ------------------------------ From: "Lasich, Mark D." Date: Mon, 23 Jul 2001 10:30:05 -0400 Subject: the_dojang: Meditation? This question is so fresh in my mind, so pardon me if I've asked it already, or if it's already been addressed on the list: Does anyone have any suggestions on how to begin meditation? Do you think about something in particular? Do you think about nothing (which I find hard since I am then thinking ABOUT nothing). OR, I've read that you simply let thoughts travel through your mind without attempting to latch onto any specific thought - to just let it come and then go, only to be replaced by another...... How long for a newbie? Five minutes, an hour? Position: Sitting, standing, lying down? Eyes open, closed? Breathing: in through the nose, out the mouth? All nose? All mouth? - I *do* know breathing into the lower abdomen is the best! Any guidance for someone who is beginning to realize the benefits of some 'quiet time' in the midst of the flurry of activity most of us call our day... Thank you. Mark mark.lasich@alcoa.com ------------------------------ From: "Bruce Sims" Date: Mon, 23 Jul 2001 09:14:43 -0500 Subject: the_dojang: Re: Roundhouse Kick Dear Prince: "...I am curious as to what this group knows about the differences between a Korean Roundhouse kick and the Japanese Roundhouse kick...." You would have truely enjoyed a spirited exchange on SABAKI Net about 6 months ago as a number of folks worked to run down the origins of this kick. It was great to watch so many people working to identify where it came from and there were some general conclusions drawn but nothing that could be pinned down to specifics. (Gee, non-specific historical material in the MA. Imagine that! :-) ) To start with noone was able to identify a "roundhouse kick" in the Japanese, Okinawan, Korean or Chinese arts. Certainly, we all agree that such a kick exists NOW, in all these cultures, but going back before WW II such a kick is not identified in any of the Forms or kata, nor is it mentioned in any of the curriculum. There are front kicks and side kicks and back kicks but no "roundhouse kick". This brought up the question that if there is no historical provenance for such a kick, where did it come from. I think the common consensus was that it is was dervived from the catalogue of lower leg techniques as are found in the SE Asia traditions Muay Thai, Bando and Penjac Silat. For me, personally, I have to consider that Korean nationals who went to Japan pre-WW II could well have taken with them Taek Kyon techniques that included such a kick. It would not have been out of the question that the Japanese incorporated such a technique into their arts, but "good luck" getting them to admit to this. I just know that such a kick did not come from Okinawa to Japan based on the traditional Kata practiced at the time and I have not been able to find such a kick in the various Chaun Fa precursors to Okinawan Karate. I'd like to think my theory is the most plausible one but I also admit my prejudice. :-) Best Wishes, Bruce ------------------------------ From: "Master Frank Clay" Date: Mon, 23 Jul 2001 12:41:45 -0400 Subject: the_dojang: RE: Certifications The Certificate sounds like one of the Sang Moo Sa lookalikes. You can always write Kukkiwon and ask them. If Ray doesn't have the address, I do. Just let me know, but I think that Ray can take care of this one. Frank ------------------------------ From: "Craig Stovall" Date: Mon, 23 Jul 2001 09:58:27 -0500 Subject: the_dojang: Roudhouse Kicks Prince wrote, "Just for the purpose of learning and deeper understanding , I am curious as to what this group knows about the differences between a Korean Roundhouse kick and the Japanese Roundhouse kick. As we all know that the Korean roundhouse uses the instep, while the Japanese emphazise with the base of toes. I'd like to know the following" Most Korean schools teach the "traditional" method of striking with the ball of the foot. This can be a very devastating strike, but requires a significant amount of specialized conditioning (ankle strength, ankle flexion, ability to pull the toes back) in order to apply it without injury to the kicker. The "courtesy blade" (kicking with the instep) came along with the advent of safety gear that made sparring much safer and more frequent. Using the courtesy blade protects the sparring partner from the penetrating effect of the traditional strike, and takes advantage of the padding along the instep that is provided by the safety gear. BTW, most Japanese, Okinawan, and Chinese stylists kick this same way when doing light sparring. It's not a "Korean thing"...just a common sense thing. As far as actual differences between the Korean and Japanese styles...I've noted that most Korean systems (especially TKD) seem to over-emphasize using the hip for generating power. Korean roundhouse kicks typically end with the hip fully thrust "into" the kick with a straight line from the head, through the hip, and down to the heel. On the other hand, a lot of Japanese stylists (at least the ones I've seen) tend to throw their kicks with more of a whipping motion that seems to emphasize leg speed for power. Absent is the straight line between the head, hip, and heel. We used to call this "kicking around the corner" as the Japanese stylists tend to torque their bodies into sort of an L-shape. One can argue advantages/disadvantages until blue in the face. To me, the Korean kick tends to generate more power, and keeps the kicker's head safely away from a counter-strike. The Japanese kick tends to allow quicker follow up with punches and hand strikes, and may have a slightly quicker delivery. "which of the kick is considered to be more effective in real life combat" Depends. There are no superior techniques...only superior technicians. "what target would you use the kicks for" In ascending order: 1. Tibia (inside lower leg) 2. Inside/outside knee 3. Inside/outside thigh 4. His BOLLZ!!! (using my fake Brooklyn accent) 5. Bladder 6. Kidney 7. Sternum 8. Neck/throat 9. Anywhere on his big jug head "Disclaimer: before this ever gets into the flame war of "the Korean kick sucks" " The japanese kicks sucks" Please understand that this question is not about who's style is better," Too late!!! Everyone knows that the Savate style is best!!! Only losers kick with bare feet. The French have taken kicking to it's ultimate level, and have the good sense to leave their shoes on. Woe be unto you if a seasoned Savateur should grace your dojo's door looking for a challenge match. Better to cower in shame than taste defeat from the deadly fouette and chasse. Weak Koreans and Japanese...BAH!!! Ok...I'm kidding (for the humor impaired). Craig "I know Savate, and 7 other French words" Stovall _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp ------------------------------ From: Victor Cushing Date: Mon, 23 Jul 2001 11:10:59 -0400 Subject: the_dojang: Round house Kicks With a slightly different perspective, here are some comments from a purely defensive tactics point of view. In addition to what Ray already mentioned. Ball of the foot kicks without shoes can lead to broken toes if not executed properly or if a toe catches in a soft kicking shield, and have a slightly shorter reach than an extended instep kick. Ball of the foot kicks with stiff shoes in a street situation may a bit hard to pull off, but this isn't critical because if you make contact you should do damage Conversely instep kicks with either bare feet or soft shoes versus a hard target on the street may cause injury to the multiple small bones in the top of the foot. The last thing you want do in a bad situation is limit your ability to flee. From the street view, move closer and kick with thai kick using shin as striking surface against flesh (unless you are one of those who kicks palm trees for practice). ------------------------------ From: Ray Terry Date: Mon, 23 Jul 2001 9:11:57 PDT Subject: Re: the_dojang: Re: Roundhouse Kick > To start with noone was able to identify a "roundhouse kick" in the > Japanese, Okinawan, Korean or Chinese arts. Certainly, we all agree that > such a kick exists NOW, in all these cultures, but going back before WW II > such a kick is not identified in any of the Forms or kata, nor is it > mentioned in any of the curriculum. There are front kicks and side kicks > and back kicks but no "roundhouse kick". This brought up the question that > if there is no historical provenance for such a kick, where did it come from. I recall reading an article in JAMA a few years back indicating same. That article claimed that the roundhouse kick was 'invented' via the tournament circuit in the 60s (as I recall). On a different but related note, I the recent issue of JAMA someone did an analysis of the last (also first) 10 years of JAMA. One thing they menioned was the need to have an online search capability on the articles (or article abstracts) of past JAMA issues. I think that would be a great idea. Often I know I read it in JAMA, but was it 5 years ago or 7??? Ray Terry raymail@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com ------------------------------ From: Bruce.Sims@med.va.gov Date: Mon, 23 Jul 2001 10:46:25 -0500 Subject: the_dojang: RE: More Songham Stuff Dear Clothahump (Is that how you want to be addressed?): Thanks for taking the time and patience to respond. I have a better idea of how to frame my questions now. I sounds as though the Songham style of TKD post-dated the other forms of TKD in that I read your comment about GM Lee modifying the TKD by doing research and adding more kicking. Is there a way of knowing just what kind of research he conducted to make the choices about which kicks to add and how those kicks were to be executed. I think what I am asking with this question is that in making TKD something that anyone can do were the kicks adjusted to make them easier, more authentically Korean (read also closer to Taek kyon) or simply to distinguish them from the larger TKD population? What weapons do the ATA members currently practice and how are those weapons the same or different from the weapons originally identified by GM Lee? From what I understand Gen Choi had, at one point encouraged the expansion of self-defense techniques in TKD including a proposed adoption of some of the HKD curriculum. I notice that you didn't mention such material in your ATA response. Is this another place where Songham TKD differes from the rest of the TKD community. Are there particular provisions that Songham TKD makes for self-defense applications? Best Wishes and thanks, Bruce ------------------------------ From: Rudolph George-P27574 Date: Mon, 23 Jul 2001 09:32:16 -0700 Subject: the_dojang: Hom do: seeking information on the art All, I'm seeking information on the art of hom-do. A web search has not been fruitful so far. - ------------------------- George Rudolph Mad Scientist Motorola ASDC - ------------------------- ------------------------------ From: Ray Terry Date: Mon, 23 Jul 2001 10:10:30 PDT Subject: Re: the_dojang: Meditation? > Does anyone have any suggestions on how to begin meditation? Do you think > about something in particular? Do you think about nothing (which I find hard > since I am then thinking ABOUT nothing). OR, I've read that you simply let > thoughts travel through your mind without attempting to latch onto any > specific thought - to just let it come and then go, only to be replaced by > another...... > > How long for a newbie? Five minutes, an hour? > Position: Sitting, standing, lying down? > Eyes open, closed? > Breathing: in through the nose, out the mouth? All nose? All mouth? - I *do* > know breathing into the lower abdomen is the best! > > Any guidance for someone who is beginning to realize the benefits of some > 'quiet time' in the midst of the flurry of activity most of us call our > day..... As you might guess there are various types. GM Ji teaches several, but what I like is a basic mantra meditation. 20 mins, once or twice a day, use most any mantra, perhaps so'ham or ham'sa. These two are -supposedly- the sound your breath makes as it moves in and out of your body. Eyes closed, sitting in a comfortable chair, focus on (think) the mantra, don't worry if you get off the mantra, just go back to it when you realize you are thinking of something else, i.e. your mind wanders. Others will hopefully have other types of meditation to share with you. Ray Terry raymail@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com ------------------------------ From: Ray Terry Date: Mon, 23 Jul 2001 10:38:12 PDT Subject: the_dojang: . ------------------------------ End of The_Dojang-Digest V8 #430 ******************************** It's a great day for Taekwondo! Support the USTU by joining today. US Taekwondo Union, 1 Olympic Plaza, Ste 104C, Colorado Spgs, CO 80909 719-578-4632 FAX 719-578-4642 ustutkd1@aol.com http://www.ustu.org To unsubscribe from the_dojang-digest send the command: unsubscribe the_dojang-digest -or- unsubscribe the_dojang-digest your.old@address in the BODY (top line, left justified) of a "plain text" e-mail addressed to majordomo@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com. Old digest issues are available via ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com. Copyright 1994-2001: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource Standard disclaimers apply.