From: the_dojang-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com To: the_dojang-digest@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Subject: The_Dojang-Digest V8 #434 Reply-To: the_dojang@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Errors-To: the_dojang-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Precedence: The_Dojang-Digest Tues, 24 July 2001 Vol 08 : Num 434 In this issue: the_dojang: Re:round house kick -korean vs japanese the_dojang: Round house kick the_dojang: knee the_dojang: Pivot the_dojang: Re: meditation -moving meditation the_dojang: Kicks the_dojang: RE: DD Brain Trust the_dojang: Kicks the_dojang: RE: 15th Internationale the_dojang: RE: KSR 2001-12: _Integrated Korean_, by Young-Mee Cho et al. Re: the_dojang: Re: meditation the_dojang: meditation -moving meditation the_dojang: Random merriment the_dojang: 15th International Hapkido Seminar 8/17-19 the_dojang: . ========================================================================= The_Dojang, serving the Internet since June 1994. ~1111 members strong! Copyright 1994-2001: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource The premier internet discussion forum devoted to the Korean Martial Arts. Replying to this message will NOT unsubscribe you. To unsubscribe, send "unsubscribe the_dojang-digest" (no quotes) in the body (top line, left justified) of a "plain text" e-mail addressed to majordomo@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com. To send e-mail to this list use the_dojang@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com See the Korean Martial Arts (KMA) FAQ and the online search engine for back issues of The_Dojang at http://www.MartialArtsResource.com Pil Seung! ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: JSaportajr@aol.com Date: Tue, 24 Jul 2001 12:58:15 EDT Subject: the_dojang: Re:round house kick -korean vs japanese In the discussion of this topic people have focused on the ball of the foot versus instep. In ITF TKD we were taught to attack with the ball of the foot for most targets using the round kick, though not all. In some Japanese styles the foot you are standing on does not turn the heel completely to face the target as in Korean styles. When I trained in Shotokan, this kick was almost exactly the same as in ITF TKD, The big difference I think is between WTF TKD versus Japanese Karate and also versus ITF TKD. That is in how the kick is chambered. In the old style, (Japanese and ITF) the knee is chambered so your knees is parallel to the floor and the kick goes around (mawashi geri means, I believe around the house kick). So you go around the house, or round house. Advantage-more power. Disadvantage-easier to see it comming, maybe slower. In WTF TKD the knee is chambered in front of you like you are going to do a front kick then you turn your hips and the kick becomes a round kick. The chamber is in front of you as opposed to on the side. I was told that all or most kicks in WTF TKD start from the chamber position identical to the front kick then as you kick you turn it into a round kick or a side kick. The idea is that in a tournament it is faster and harder for your opponent to know what kick is coming. You gain speed and telegraph less, but maybe loose a little power, though I received one of these WTF roundkicks from Juan Moreno in a seminar and the power was unbelievable. Of course there aren't many Juan Moreno's around. Anther way of saying this, perhaps is that in Japanese Karate and used to be ITF the kick is chambered on the side with the knee parallel to the ground and come around you, while in WTF the kick comes from in front of you then flips into a round kick. So maybe its the difference between a "round house kick" versus a round kick, if that makes any sense. I belive the Hapkido round kick is more like the Japanese and ITF version than the WTF version except that the instep is used (like WTF) for most targets. Jose' ------------------------------ From: Dave Weller Date: Tue, 24 Jul 2001 10:45:58 -0500 Subject: the_dojang: Round house kick Master Timmerman wrote: >From: "Rudy Timmerman" >>Mr. Loeffler writes: >> As we all know that the Korean roundhouse uses the instep, while the Japanese >> emphazise with the base of toes. > >Greetings Mr. Loeffler: >In our Korean art, the use of the instep v/s the ball of the foot v/s the >toes, depends entirely on the intended target. It has nothing to do with >the country of origin of the art. > >Sincerely, Rudy Master Timmerman, I am curious about the application of striking with the toes when executing a roundhouse kick. Is it to strike a pressure point? I ask because I have always been told to strike with with either the ball of the foot or the "top"/ instep of the foot depending on application. Whenever I have inadvertantly struck with my toes it has been painful. Respectfully, dave weller student wtf tkd "Practice a thousand hours and you learn self discipline. Practice ten thousand hours and you learn about yourself." Myamoto Musashi ------------------------------ From: "Rudy Timmerman" Date: Tue, 24 Jul 2001 01:07:50 -0400 Subject: the_dojang: knee Ken writes: > I also had a bad > experience with a board involving the ball of my foot and the emergency room > (toes just aren't flexible enough). Hi Ken: Like anything else, the toes of the foot need to be exercised in order to bend back. Barring a mechanical problem, most students should be able to "teach" their toes proper alignment for the RH kick. We begin by sitting on our heels with the toes bent under. This not only helps stretch the toes, but it also facilitates getting up quicker. Next, I INSIST that, during any other exercise where this is possible (like stretching), my students position their foot for various kicks. Doing this while a student is stretching makes this easier, because they don't have the problem of balancing AND foot alignment. Bruce: A great piece to share with readers. I have found that the problems with female athletes and knees often is related to the valgus/varus differences between men and women. The angle of the upper leg seems to place additional stress on the knee. See you this weekend?????? Sincerely, Rudy National Korean Martial Arts Association ------------------------------ From: "Rudy Timmerman" Date: Tue, 24 Jul 2001 01:22:47 -0400 Subject: the_dojang: Pivot Bruce writes: > Instead I watch for balance, timing, > focus, discomfort, sound application and individual performance limits. Good advise Bruce: Individuals differ significantly, and ONE rule will never suit all. Above everything else, the safety of the student is paramount. Faster recovery (from a hospital bed) does not serve the student well in any situation. Sincerely, Rudy National Korean Martial Arts Association ------------------------------ From: "Lasich, Mark D." Date: Tue, 24 Jul 2001 13:34:56 -0400 Subject: the_dojang: Re: meditation -moving meditation JSaportajr: Excellent point! Weren't the Pyung Ahn forms (US TSD MDK) supposed to be a form of relaxation? I remember being told about doing Pyung Ahn Ee Dan when I supposed to be "relaxing" - not to show disrespect, but I thought to myself at the time, isn't relaxation supposed to be one of the intents of these forms? To all responders to my meditation post so far - thank you for your insight, experience and recommendations. I will have to experiment with what works for me. I've been accused of thinking TOO much, so I tend to believe that attempting to obtain a "clear" mind would certainly help me! Other input is definitely welcome. Can someone elaborate on what a "mantra" really is? Mr. McDonough: I keep trying to be water, the analogy is great, but it just seems to be so much easier to be the rock! To Phil: since I am a novice meditator, probably one or two beers out of the 6 pack would render me useless! Of course, I could always think about the remaining four, but then my mind wouldn't be clear then, would it ;-) In the arts, Mark mark.lasich@alcoa.com ------------------------------ From: "Rudy Timmerman" Date: Tue, 24 Jul 2001 01:36:47 -0400 Subject: the_dojang: Kicks Bruce writes: > Clearing kicks such as both > Crescent kicks and Cover kicks are not power kicks as the practitioner must > moderate their power. In these cases the vector of the kick is at odds with > the structure of the construction of the leg. Hi Bruce: In addition to moderating the power, and never using this kick on heavy bags, I also teach my students to angle the lower leg inward some with the inside crescent kick. This, plus a slight angle of the ankle, tends to add a small measure of safety (every bit helps). Since we use this kick to block as well as strike, the angle of the lower leg lessens the potential of damage to the femural artery in certain weapon defense applications. Sincerely, Rudy National Korean Martial Arts Association ------------------------------ From: Bruce.Sims@med.va.gov Date: Tue, 24 Jul 2001 12:51:28 -0500 Subject: the_dojang: RE: DD Brain Trust Dear Mike: "...Hey I have no problem with debates or opinions but don't become an "expert" on a subject that you are basicaly detached from. When people are typing dissertations on here about a subject they didn't major in or have lived it gets me a little weary, and I have to speak up. I love this board but lets not get cerebral just for cerebral's sake. I like to keep at least one eye on the road at all times don't you?..." Oddly enough, I DO have a problem with debates and would concur with you wholeheartedly about the "expert" issue when it comes down to one (I'll use your word) "detached" person pontificating about something to which they have made no effort to truely connect. However, thats not ( I hope) what I see here on the DD. Rather, I see a lot of folks coming out of the closet to say that MA is more than just banging heads and backing it up with resources, study, reflection, questions, citations and all the other fine things that make education work. Not everyone on this Net is willing to take long, hot showers with everybody else and thats fine. The problem for me occurs when people are bullied or lambasted into silence or clam-up from frustration. Personally I have seen this happen more from debates than about anything else. As far as getting "cerebral"-- well, I think its damn well about time! My MA career started after military service in 1973 and for a couple of decades I have seen MA teachers repeatedly use the MA equivilent of "'cuz I said so" when students asked questions. Look at some of the issues we have talked about just in this last year and you will notice that the powers that be up there in the rarified reaches of New Jersey, California, New York and Korea are not killing themselves to give any straight answers. If we practitioners of this generation don't start using our heads to check on some of this oral tradition don't be surprised if a couple of generations down the pike you find yet more MA practitioners espousing that Chaun fa started at the Shaolin Temple, Aikido pratitioners can shoot Ki out the ends of their fingers, and the Hwa Rang warriors used Taekwondo. Personally I think the much touted grandmasters and the brawny head-bangers have had their turn dictating the nature of Korean MA. Maybe we are overdue for people who aren't embarrassed or ashamed to say that they put a little thought into things. Best Wishes, Bruce ------------------------------ From: MissIllona@aol.com Date: Tue, 24 Jul 2001 13:43:43 EDT Subject: the_dojang: Kicks In a message dated 7/24/2001 10:04:22 AM Pacific Daylight Time, the_dojang-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com writes: << I remember very well practicing Crescent kicks against a body bag and kicking sheild thinking that the pain I would endure was merely an indicator that I needed to be more dilligent in my training. >> Our instructor never allowed us to use these for those kinds of kicks ... not even hand held pads by our partners. He had us kicking into x-ray papers or pads hanging from a string. And I thank him. My joints are just fine now at the ripe ol' age of 52. In power kicks we don't teach anyone to extend the leg all the way when they hit a big bag ... we keep the knee slightly bent when it reaches the target (example that I am thinking about is the roundhouse to the legs or body or bag) and we kick with the shin. How does everyone else do them? Illona ------------------------------ From: Bruce.Sims@med.va.gov Date: Tue, 24 Jul 2001 12:56:11 -0500 Subject: the_dojang: RE: 15th Internationale Dear Dennis: "....We need to get together all the DD (& X-TKDnet) members at JR West's 15th International Hapkido Seminar in Jackson MS August 17- 19 for a group photo. It would be cool to put faces with names. So who all will be there? ..." I'm working on it even as I write this. I had not originally planned to make it to Jackson until the next Internationale in the Spring of 2002. Now I think I would like to give it a try, but the logistics are a bit tricky at this late date. Keep you posted. If you need to reach me off line you can use the website or bsims@midwesthapkido.com. Best Wishes, Bruce www.midwesthapkido.com ------------------------------ From: Bruce.Sims@med.va.gov Date: Tue, 24 Jul 2001 12:59:57 -0500 Subject: the_dojang: RE: KSR 2001-12: _Integrated Korean_, by Young-Mee Cho et al. Dear Ray: Once again thank you for a great contribution. As many of the citations have said it is increasingly hard to find sound material for Korean study. UCLA has a great exchange program with 6 Korean University and Harvaard, Columbia and a few others have exceptional libraries and resource centers. The trick is being able to engage these places and get to the pertinent material. Nice job. Keep up the great work. Best Wishes, Bruce ------------------------------ From: Ray Terry Date: Tue, 24 Jul 2001 11:39:10 PDT Subject: Re: the_dojang: Re: meditation > ... It is > unfortunate that the Transcendental Meditation movement has gotten so weird, > which makes me hesitate to recommend it, though the technique is very > effective and there is a lot of scientific, physiologic research to back this > up. Agreed, and expensive. I think the TM Centers now charge $1000 to learn the program. When I learned it (in the mid-70s) I think it was ~$150. Ray Terry raymail@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com ------------------------------ From: "jere-hilland" Date: Tue, 24 Jul 2001 15:03:00 -0400 Subject: the_dojang: meditation -moving meditation Jose': I previously mentioned the walking meditation found in China. But was it not the Zen priest D.T. Suzuki who once watched a aikido demonstration and call it moving Zen? To bad he did not witness a hapkido demonstration. Jere R. Hilland www.geocities.com/hapkiyukwonsul ------------------------------ From: "Craig Stovall" Date: Tue, 24 Jul 2001 14:05:54 -0500 Subject: the_dojang: Random merriment Donnla wrote, "So what would you say then, to those who accuse the US of coming down hard on Tibetan Gopher Throwing? :-)." POPPYCOCK!!! (Pardon my French) Despite the rumors, the U.S. has never taken an offical position on Tibetan Gopher Tossing, nor have we taken any action against those who would toss gophers (whether they be Tibetan, Korean, or Antarctican). I'm sure this burning issue will warrant sufficient attention in the future, but right now our government has bigger fish to fry. As we speak, our corporate owned and sponsored military-industrial complex is working feverishly at wrecking foreign currency markets, cutting off precious capital resources to various third-world countries, and financing secret wars in Banana Republics across the entire Northern Hemispere. Of course, this current flurry of activity was spawned by recent reports that the U.S. has plunged to a distant third in terms of being a global menace. We currently rank behind "Crop Circles" and the "Boogie Man", but we have high hopes of regaining the top position once we unleash yet another strain of the AIDS virus. Our CEO (George W.) has assured us that 3rd Quarter results will look much brighter, and dispelled all rumors that we were in danger of being surpassed on the list by "UFO Abductions". By the way...all of you that subscribe to 'Mother Jones'...you're being executed next week. Have a nice day. Craig "Beware...we're watching" Stovall 2nd Degree BB 33rd Degree Mason Prince of the Martian Underworld _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp ------------------------------ From: "jere-hilland" Date: Tue, 24 Jul 2001 15:13:08 -0400 Subject: the_dojang: 15th International Hapkido Seminar 8/17-19 Excellent! I am looking forward to finally meeting you. My flight arrives (from Cincinnati) at 2:28 pm then I will be going to the dojang before checking in at the hotel. Jere R. Hilland www.geocities.com/hapkiyukwonsul <> Me. Ray Terry ------------------------------ From: Ray Terry Date: Tue, 24 Jul 2001 13:16:17 PDT Subject: the_dojang: . ------------------------------ End of The_Dojang-Digest V8 #434 ******************************** It's a great day for Taekwondo! Support the USTU by joining today. US Taekwondo Union, 1 Olympic Plaza, Ste 104C, Colorado Spgs, CO 80909 719-578-4632 FAX 719-578-4642 ustutkd1@aol.com http://www.ustu.org To unsubscribe from the_dojang-digest send the command: unsubscribe the_dojang-digest -or- unsubscribe the_dojang-digest your.old@address in the BODY (top line, left justified) of a "plain text" e-mail addressed to majordomo@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com. Old digest issues are available via ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com. Copyright 1994-2001: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource Standard disclaimers apply.