From: the_dojang-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com To: the_dojang-digest@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Subject: The_Dojang-Digest V8 #440 Reply-To: the_dojang@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Errors-To: the_dojang-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Precedence: The_Dojang-Digest Thur, 26 July 2001 Vol 08 : Num 440 In this issue: the_dojang: MA and Special Needs Kids the_dojang: Re: The_Dojang-Digest V8 #439 the_dojang: Tedeschi's Hapkido Book the_dojang: RE: More Kicking stuff the_dojang: Hapkido I & II by Dr. Kimm the_dojang: Hapkido Books the_dojang: Copyrighted forms the_dojang: RE: Copyrights and copycats the_dojang: Translation the_dojang: . ========================================================================= The_Dojang, serving the Internet since June 1994. ~1111 members strong! Copyright 1994-2001: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource The premier internet discussion forum devoted to the Korean Martial Arts. Replying to this message will NOT unsubscribe you. To unsubscribe, send "unsubscribe the_dojang-digest" (no quotes) in the body (top line, left justified) of a "plain text" e-mail addressed to majordomo@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com. To send e-mail to this list use the_dojang@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com See the Korean Martial Arts (KMA) FAQ and the online search engine for back issues of The_Dojang at http://www.MartialArtsResource.com Pil Seung! ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Craig Stovall" Date: Thu, 26 Jul 2001 13:46:04 -0500 Subject: the_dojang: MA and Special Needs Kids I was just wondering if anyone on the list has had experience teaching MA to special needs children and adults. By special needs...I'm referring to those challenged with developmental disabilities...most notably Down's Syndrome. What's it like in terms of difficulties, challenges, obstacles, adjustments to curriculum, etc? Also, I guess one could expand the discussion to working with disabled (physically) children and adults...I'd be interested in hearing any of those stories also. Much thanks. Craig Stovall _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp ------------------------------ From: "Clifford Vaught" Date: Thu, 26 Jul 2001 18:47:09 Subject: the_dojang: Re: The_Dojang-Digest V8 #439 Meghan, I don't personally support that policy. I don't advocate anything that prostitutes the art for the money - and I'm not talking about "making a living" money. If someone performs a kata/hyung that was created by another, is not that performance a form of free advertisement that the performer isn't necessarily compensated for? There's a very famous move in wrestling called the "Granby Roll" created at Granby High School in Norfolk, VA. Countless wrestlers (not WWF!) use this technique. What you're saying is that in competition if a wrestler uses that technique, and wins, perhaps even Olympic gold, then that athlete should compensate Coach Martin or what - - lose the gold medal? What a selfish thing that would be. How about the Fosbury Flop in high jump? What's the difference between any of those examples and a hyung? What is the point of having a cross-cultural exchange of ideas? What if I change one move? Chuck Norris created 3 new Gicho forms in TSD by just adding a front kick before the punch. I'll bet KJN Hwang Kee didn't lose any sleep over it. He didn't demand a residual income because the basic concept was his. I just don't see it. Soo Bahk!! Cliff - ----Original Message Follows---- From: "Meghan Gardner" Date: Thu, 26 Jul 2001 08:32:20 -0400 Subject: the_dojang: Copyrighted forms Cliff writes: <> I respectfully disagree. If you attend your city ballet and they perform a dance that was choreographed by a specific choreographer, then that dance company must receive permission and often pays royalty fees to that choreographer. You cannot copy a Picasso and sell it, you cannot copy music and distribute it, you cannot cut an paste the content of an online article and display it on your website without permission. Copyright does not mean that you cannot perform a kata - it means you cannot teach it publicly (esp. in a way that would allow you to make money from it). It also means you cannot perform it at a tournament (esp. if there is a cash prize) without permission. I believe and support this practice. Artists, no matter what art they perform, have a right to receive compensation for their art. I know an incredible music band who is struggling to make ends meet because they don't have the money for a lawyer to fight Napster. The result is that they cannot afford to record new tunes and we, their die-hard fans who SUPPORT them, won't get to hear as much of their artistry. If I spend gobs of time developing a form, refining it and writing it down, I have a right to keep the rights to that form. Meghan Gardner Director Guard Up, Inc. www.guardup.com _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp ------------------------------ From: "Craig Stovall" Date: Thu, 26 Jul 2001 13:59:50 -0500 Subject: the_dojang: Tedeschi's Hapkido Book Well, since Tedeschi's Hapkido book was brought up... What in the world is he doing in the cover photo? Is that some sort of low-line sweeping scissor kick of some sort (say that six times real fast)? Just curious...I've never seen that one done in either form or application (although I can sort of visualize the intended result). For those that don't know what in the world I'm talking about...you can see a pic here: http://images.amazon.com/images/P/0834804441.01.LZZZZZZZ.jpg Looks very spectacular, and would seem to require a good deal of body control. He should copyright that move:) Ok...that was my last pot shot at the copyright deal...maybe. Craig "I thought he was breakdancing...now my leg's broken" Stovall _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp ------------------------------ From: Bruce.Sims@med.va.gov Date: Thu, 26 Jul 2001 08:15:13 -0500 Subject: the_dojang: RE: More Kicking stuff Dear Danny: "... I just wondered, you being the analytical person you are, what changes have you noticed in your students and the way they pivot the supporting foot at say intermediate color and cho dan levels now that you don't specify an amount of pivot..." . I have to be completely candid and say that the changes I have noticed are more what I feel in my guts for my students than maybe what I can report measureably. Tell me if this makes sense. Though MA training requires discipline I don't know anybody who signs up for MA training so that they can experience a "Basic Training" mentality. I think most students will adopt the guiding principals of the instructor if a.) the guidance seems reasonable and b.) the information has an intelligent rationale. For instance, in the case of pivoting the foot, I think most students understand the benefits that such a maneuver holds for them (more power, better alignment, etc.) and would accept guidance from the teacher in developing this motion as part of there execution. If, on the other hand, I, as teacher, dictate that a pivot will always be thus and so under one situation for one kick, and thus and so for another kick or circumstance I believe that I would begin to sound pendantic or compulsive and students would begin to have trouble accepting my guidance. My job, as I see it, is to help people come out of the best part of themselves which includes taking good care of themselves. In the case of the pivot, as long as I see that the student is allowing their foot to release tension on the ankle and knee joints as well as elevate their hips up on end at the point of impact, this is a very good start. Specifying a particular range of turn, say "90 degrees" or "180 degrees" suggests that everyone has the same level of flexibility, or intent in application. Now, having said all of that, there is one interesting item that I noticed a few of my students (and myself BTW) in executing my RH kicks over time. As you know Hapkido does not advocate a lot of high kicks. That does not keep students from training to kick high just for the satisfaction or showmanship of it. I have noticed that when either my students or I start aiming for higher kicks we start turning our foot well past 90 to the 180 degree mark. However, when I would press them for heavy application (ie bag work) or when they are involved in a selfdefense situation such as one-step everyone begins to naturally shorten their pivot back towards 90 degrees again. I have noticed something like this when students execute a substitute ("skip-in") side kick as opposed to a step-across side kick as well. I suspect it has something to do with the unconscious need to not open the hips too much in a combat situation for better (faster) recovery from a kick, but now I'm just spit-balling. Hope this helps. Best Wishes, Bruce ------------------------------ From: "T. Kennelly" Date: Thu, 26 Jul 2001 15:01:46 -0400 Subject: the_dojang: Hapkido I & II by Dr. Kimm > From: "Bruce Sims" > For my money I would recommend staying with Hapkido by Dr. Kimm. Bruce, can you tell me what the difference between Dr.Kimm's Hapkido I and II. Also, for the first time, I noticed you have published a few books. Where can I find out more about your work. ------------------------------ From: mtomlins@mail.volusia.k12.fl.us Date: Thu, 26 Jul 2001 15:09:10 -0400 Subject: the_dojang: Hapkido Books When it comes to Hapkido books there are none better than Dr. Kimms two Hapkido books.. These books can also be broken down into two seperate schools of Hapkido,, Hapkido Bible 1 is basically Doju Nim's version of Hapkido and very closely parallels Sin Moo Hapkido. Hapkido Bible 2 is Hapkido done thru the eyes and body of Dr. Kimm's style. I like them both but I am partial to Hapkido Bible 1 Michael Tomlinson **************************************************************************** This email and any files transmitted with it are confidential and intended solely for the use of the individual or entity to whom they are addressed. If you have received this email in error please notify the system manager at administrator@volusia.k12.fl.us. **************************************************************************** ------------------------------ From: Dave Weller Date: Thu, 26 Jul 2001 15:45:25 -0500 Subject: the_dojang: Copyrighted forms Several comments have been made about the ATA's copyright of the Songahm poomse. I noticed on one ATA website that they kindly listed all the movements in the Songahm poomse. One might, with diligence, learn the poomse from this publicly placed material. Would the learner be violating the copyright? Or would the use of a public vechicle such as the web to give step by step instruction in these patterns constitute a copyright violation (can't imagine how you'd violate your own copyright but the question does come to mind.)? And how in the world would one enforce the copyright against someone who learned the form in this manner and performed it, provided they were not doing it for payment, or portraying themselves as a "teacher" of this poomse? And if they restrict its use in open competitions(as Ms. Gardner stated) to those who have (i guess) learned it from a certified ATA instructor, do they have a stable of lawyers on hand at tourneys to police the mats? How would one ever know if the form was learned from a registered ATA dojang or from their web site? I might be a WTF/ITF/TSD/ETC practicioner who had an ATA stint. There seem to be so many variables in this senario that I think it's almost unreasonable to assume that, except in cases of non-certified instructors teaching their patterns or performance for cash, they would ever be able to enforce the copyright in this manner. If I were, for example, to learn Songahm 1 from the info on the web and then give a demonstration of it at one of our classes to show the differences between other styles' patterns would I be in violation of their copyright? My point in this little ramble is to show the inadequacies of trying to enforce this copyright. I honestly understand their desire not to have some rogue Dan holder break off and start his/her own style, but utilize the Songahm poomse in their "new" art. But beyond that I find it a bit difficult to believe the copyright holds much water. By the way, this is certainly not intended to disparage the nice ATA folks on here (or anywhere). They obviously have a well rounded, interesting sytem, and the dedication and loyalty shown by the ATA posters to their system and it's founder is beyond reproach. Just some comments to pass the day with.. Respectfully, dave weller student wtf tkd "Practice a thousand hours and you learn self discipline. Practice ten thousand hours and you learn about yourself." Myamoto Musashi ------------------------------ From: Bruce.Sims@med.va.gov Date: Thu, 26 Jul 2001 13:49:23 -0500 Subject: the_dojang: RE: Copyrights and copycats Dear Mark: "... On the other hand, I don't believe copyrighting material is a good way to promote a closer martial arts community....." I'm gonna put my author/publisher hat on for a second to suggest another way of looking at the issue you have raised. Strictly speaking each time a person puts some idea to paper their work is automatically copyrighted under the laws of the US. What most people identify as "copyrighted" is the formal registration of that material-put-to-medium (ie. a book, a tape, a record, a music or dance score, etc.) with the Library of Congress Copyright Office. Filling out the form and mailing it in with a copy of your media and $30 dollars identifies or registers your work officially. It does not make it any more copyrighted; it just registers the copyright officially. This means that if you ever have to go to court it is down in black and white when and what you said was your work. Now, I will agree with you that one good reason to do this is to assure that in our commecial society someone does not come along and use your ideas and not give you fair recognition and compensation for your efforts. But I would also suggest to you that there is another very good reason for this as well. and perhaps the best reason I had for going through the process with the books that I wrote. The reason was that I did not want somebody playing fast and loose with the work that I had dedicated myself to for a number of years. In our easy-living American society it is pretty common to have people de-construct, then reconstruct arts and techniques just about any way they want. The problem is that these individuals then invoke original material, or the names of earlier practitioners to gain authentification for their new material. Personally I would not have published my material if I didn't want people to use it. What I object to is having my material modified, misrepresented or misappropriated by someone to be represented to others as "just as goods as" or "just like" the original. I know what the purpose and goals of the DOCHANG JOURNAL project are and I would not care to have somebody sort through my material cherry-picking what he thought was valid or not and then representing the new stuff as just like the old stuff. If you need an even better example let me use myself. I practice and teach Yon Mu Kwan Hapkido but I use an academic approach rather than the same Confucian approach the GM Myung uses. GM Myung also uses his five forms which he organized and which he has published (and registered the copyright for.). I teach his hyung, and have even introduced a couple of adjustments here and there. What I am not about to do is layout his hyung in a book that I write and represent the hyung as mine (which is what I would be saying when I applied to register my copyright) as this would be an infringement on his copyright no mater how much better I thought my vesion of the hyung was. I hope this helps. Best Wishes, Bruce ------------------------------ From: "Prince Loeffler" Date: Thu, 26 Jul 2001 15:27:31 -0700 Subject: the_dojang: Translation Can anyone help me with these ? Thank you for your help in advance... Okinawan Terms _______________________ Korean Terms Taikyuko Shodan - Taikyuko Nidan - Taikyuko Sandan - Pinan Shodan Pinan Nidan Pinan Sandan Pinan Yondan Pinan Godan Naihanchi Shodan Naihanchi Nidan Naihanchi Sandan - Budo - ------------------------------ From: Ray Terry Date: Thu, 26 Jul 2001 16:34:48 PDT Subject: the_dojang: . ------------------------------ End of The_Dojang-Digest V8 #440 ******************************** It's a great day for Taekwondo! Support the USTU by joining today. US Taekwondo Union, 1 Olympic Plaza, Ste 104C, Colorado Spgs, CO 80909 719-578-4632 FAX 719-578-4642 ustutkd1@aol.com http://www.ustu.org To unsubscribe from the_dojang-digest send the command: unsubscribe the_dojang-digest -or- unsubscribe the_dojang-digest your.old@address in the BODY (top line, left justified) of a "plain text" e-mail addressed to majordomo@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com. Old digest issues are available via ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com. 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