From: the_dojang-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com To: the_dojang-digest@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Subject: The_Dojang-Digest V8 #448 Reply-To: the_dojang@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Errors-To: the_dojang-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Precedence: The_Dojang-Digest Tues, 31 July 2001 Vol 08 : Num 448 In this issue: the_dojang: Re: Registration the_dojang: Re: Dat Sine Wave Thang the_dojang: Teaching the challenged the_dojang: Book cover kick Re: the_dojang: Book cover kick Re: the_dojang: Re: Registration Re: the_dojang: Re: Dat Sine Wave Thang and Dave Steffen the_dojang: Re: Sine Wave Thang the_dojang: Buddhist, Confucian, and the student... the_dojang: RE: Knuckle Push-up stuff the_dojang: RE: The_Dojang-Digest V8 #447 the_dojang: RE: Master and Mrs Richards soon to be new addition the_dojang: Il vs Cho? the_dojang: RE: Missing Technique? Re: the_dojang: Il vs Cho? Re: the_dojang: RE: Knuckle Push-up stuff the_dojang: . ========================================================================= The_Dojang, serving the Internet since June 1994. ~1222 members strong! Copyright 1994-2001: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource The premier internet discussion forum devoted to the Korean Martial Arts. Replying to this message will NOT unsubscribe you. To unsubscribe, send "unsubscribe the_dojang-digest" (no quotes) in the body (top line, left justified) of a "plain text" e-mail addressed to majordomo@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com. To send e-mail to this list use the_dojang@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com See the Korean Martial Arts (KMA) FAQ and the online search engine for back issues of The_Dojang at http://www.MartialArtsResource.com Pil Seung! ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "J. R. West" Date: Mon, 30 Jul 2001 18:02:33 -0500 Subject: the_dojang: Re: Registration Ray: Your form looked like a sales brochure for a Rolls.....Horsepower?; Sufficient....Speed?;Fast enough......Price?; If you have to ask, you can't afford it......JRW www.hapkido.com ------------------------------ From: "Robert Martin" Date: Mon, 30 Jul 2001 17:13:25 -0600 Subject: the_dojang: Re: Dat Sine Wave Thang > >"It is one of those devilish hard concepts to learn and to teach. I >do know this (and I know I'll take some hits over the statement): sine wave >works. For whatever reason, it does give more power without cutting speed." > >Anyone can field this one... > >Can I assume that the motion seen in those forms is an exagerrated movement >used to teach "beginners" the basic idea behind the Sine Wave? No, this is not the beginners method. However, there are variations as to how much sine wave to use, etc. I think the expamples are pretty good. >I would >assume that this motion "tightens up" at more advanced levels as the >athlete >learns to harness the "falling effect" without such exaggerated motion. If >not, this Sine Wave motion would seem (by my eye) to slow the athlete down. I'm not sure what you mean by "tightens up". Sine wave, when done properly in a pattern, as a rythmic, natural motion to each movement. Again, I'm not familiar with "falling effect" -- never heard the term. >In all fairness, boxers accomplish the same generation of power without >having to dip and rise like that just by drop stepping. Can I assume that >what I'm seeing in the pattern is just the beginning...rather than the >ultimate goal of the practicioner? > Boxers are not performing patterns. The sine wave does not translate directly to sparring. While the basic concept is used, the speed is much greater. Look at the speed that each movement is done and the time between movements. It is not represntative of a sparring situation. >Also, it's interesting (at least to me) that Choi modified the traditional >movements to harness the power of the Sine Wave motion...but those same >movements (at least by my eye) seem to ignore the equally effective (if not >more efficient) skill of harnessing the bodies ability to twist/torque the >major joints for power generation. In other words, the shoulders and hips >are still kept virtually perpindicular to the angle of the >striking/blocking >arm, and the knees' ability to twist are all but negated by the "locking >out" of the traditional stances at the point of impact. I'm wondering if >there's some theoretical reason why Choi adopted the Sine Wave into the >delivery step in lieu of modifying the actual techniques (adding more >torque >and twist). > >Not trying to find fault here...just curious. > >Craig Stovall > Acutally, the shoulders, hips and knees are still very involved with the whole motion. What Major Gen. Choi (Ret.) has done is to try to make all the motions more natural. (He wanted to elimate the hard movements of Karate.) For example in a low block (najunde makgi), the blocking hand was original brought up almost to the oposite shoulder and the upper body was turned towards that side. When the block was executed the blocking arm was brought down to the proper blocking hight and the upper body was snapped back to the front. Now. The hands are crossed (back of wrist to back of wrist with blocking hand on inside)in front of the chest. The "cross" or intermediate hand position is started at the start of the first donward motion of sine wave. The upper body no longer twist so far over. As the block is executed, the blocking arm is twisted down into the block, the body is lowered into the end of the sine wave, the feet are planted (if steppig) and the breath is expelled. I know it sounds compilcated and it is. However, it is very effective. When the motion was called "spring style", tests where done at Colorado State University. I don't have the official results anymore (convient -- isn't it!) but this motion was shown to be more powerful and no slower. If you are truly interested, I would suggest find a good ITF instructor and have a few lessons. Feel free to email me directly if you have questions or are interested in learning more about sine wave. Robert Martin 4th Dan ITF PS: If my follow ITFers find anything that needs changing, feel free to jump in. _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp ------------------------------ From: "Patrick L" Date: Mon, 30 Jul 2001 16:49:26 -0700 Subject: the_dojang: Teaching the challenged Dear Mr. Stovall, RE: >I was just wondering if anyone on the list has had experience teaching MA >to special needs children and adults. By special needs...I'm referring to >those challenged with developmental disabilities...most notably Down's >Syndrome. What's it like in terms of difficulties, challenges, obstacles, >adjustments to curriculum, etc? Also, I guess one could expand the >discussion to working with disabled (physically) children and adults...I'd >be interested in hearing any of those stories also. Much thanks. Craig Stovall< I have taught Down's, deaf, stroke victim's and even one child without elbows or knees. The children with Deafness and Down's are usually capable of integrating with an assembled class. The other's required one on one attention. Monitoring the behavior of all students becomes a little more important. Cruelty, teasing, and "uneasiness" require your attention. Prospects do not always respond positively to sharing class with the "challenged". Getting in the WAY, Patrick _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp ------------------------------ From: "Patrick L" Date: Mon, 30 Jul 2001 17:10:00 -0700 Subject: the_dojang: Book cover kick Dear Mr. Stovall, >... Tedeschi's Hapkido book ... What in the world is he doing in the cover >photo? Is that some sort of low-line sweeping scissor kick of some sort >(say that six times real fast)? Just curious...I've never seen that one >done in either form or application (although I can sort of visualize the >intended result).< I have seen and done this kick many times. However, always in the air against two people. It is one of the many acrobatic double kicks in Hapkido. His form is very good (except for closed eyes)- the height (or rather the lack of it) confuses me, but I too can imagine the application. There was a thin book about Hapkido published in the early 70's with the same kick on the cover sleeve by an Instructor named Ji. Getting in the WAY, Patrick _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp ------------------------------ From: Ray Terry Date: Mon, 30 Jul 2001 18:30:18 PDT Subject: Re: the_dojang: Book cover kick > There was a thin book about Hapkido published in the early 70's with the > same kick on the cover sleeve by an Instructor named Ji. He had a copy of that picture back in a corner of his dojang office. Of course, the technique was head high. When I'd ask GM Ji questions about that picture, he'd just smile, nod his head, and say 'much younger then'. :) Ray Terry raymail@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com ------------------------------ From: Ray Terry Date: Mon, 30 Jul 2001 18:31:05 PDT Subject: Re: the_dojang: Re: Registration > Ray: > Your form looked like a sales brochure for a Rolls.....Horsepower?; > Sufficient....Speed?;Fast enough......Price?; If you have to ask, you can't > afford it......JRW www.hapkido.com Ask me no questions and I'll tell you no lies... :) Ray Terry raymail@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com ------------------------------ From: Ray Terry Date: Mon, 30 Jul 2001 18:49:02 PDT Subject: Re: the_dojang: Re: Dat Sine Wave Thang and Dave Steffen Agreed, dat sine wave thang can be difficult to comprehend. It didn't click with me until ITF Dan friend Dave Steffen demoed it for me at his Colorado State TKD Club in Ft. Collins, CO. I could see it well demoed on the ITF's CD-ROM (see the file Sinewave.mov in the archives), but having Dave demo it 'in my face' greatly helped me to better understand the concept. Thanks Dave! Ray Terry raymail@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com ------------------------------ From: DrgnSlyr5@aol.com Date: Tue, 31 Jul 2001 02:48:32 EDT Subject: the_dojang: Re: Sine Wave Thang In a message dated 7/30/2001 3:44:14 PM Pacific Daylight Time, the_dojang-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com writes: << Not trying to find fault here...just curious. Craig Stovall >> Gee, Craig, I'm disappointed. I look forward to the next creative signature you will use depending on the subject you're addressing! ;-) DS ------------------------------ From: Brian Myers Date: Tue, 31 Jul 2001 07:31:41 -0500 Subject: the_dojang: Buddhist, Confucian, and the student... Now that I seem to be back on-line with the DD... Bruce: You have helped, somewhat. I agree with your 4 pts (why there aren't more books available). I have fallen victim to the first one - tradition and the "don't question tradition or your instructor's instructor" mentality. What a waste of perfectly good gray matter! As for point #2 - I too believe in the idea of "teaching for the art" and not "teaching for the money", but I can see the flip side of that arguement. Afterall in today's world not many of us have the energy (or love of the arts) to pursue a full-time job and teach, so those that chose to teach must also find a way to eat. Thoughts 3 and 4 - accountability and innovation - are where my real question lies... As to accountability, I fully agree that ALL arts must come to terms with finding a way to ensure the quality of it's instructors. If I understand you correctly there are 3 modes of teaching Buddhist, Confucian, and Academic. Buddhist offers the greatest freedom of thought for the student, the greatest challenge for the teacher, and little or no good method of ensuring quality generations of instructors. Confucian places more bounds on the freedoms of the student, makes the job of instruction more structured and "linear", but still fails to ensure a good quality control on new instructors. Academic has Confucian student boundaries, an even more detailed and recorded "teacher's manual", and does the best job of quality control on future generations of instructors. Am I close? I would propose another option - one which some schools, but very few organizations, ascribe to. A "sliding scale" method. As a student begins they are placed into a Confucian mode, ie very structured and linear in progression of techniques. This allows them to learn the "basics" of their art thoroughly, building a solid foundation to their abilities (and provides us silly westerners with a sense of accomplishment based on attainment of goals and objects!). This also seems to satisfy the McDojang desire for protraction of learning and retention of students (afterall what lower rank student doesn't just salivate at the mere thought of that "next belt"?!). Also during this period, those who are deathly afraid of the "questioning student" have a structure and history to fall back on. As a student reaches 1st Dan (I personally do not care for designations of Dan level as you may see why momentarily) he or she would them be allowed to follow a more Buddhist approach. Learn all that you can in the order that suits you best and most compliments your personal desires and abilities. Those few students that attain Dan level and continue actively pusuing knowledge should be accorded more freedom in their pusuit, in recognition of their devotion to the art and its knowledge. Again this seems to best fit the McDojang wishes, those that stay active at this point are self-motivated and the idea of being stagnated and controlled becomes a "turn-off". If a student wishes to become an instructor, of their own school - not just as an assistant to thier head instructor, they are then put through an Academic approach to train for instructorship. This "apprenticeship" includes all the necessary quality checks to ensure a "proper" instructor is graduated. The real rub in my senario is the place where most organizations fail. How to let a Dan rank student pursue knowledge freely. Many fears begin to arise, especially one of losing a student because they begin to pursue "other" martial arts. Most organizations do pretty good job with the idea of training a "young" student and have decent Academic resources available for those who wish to become instructors, but they just can't seem to let go of the strict structure and allow more "freedom of movement" for their Dan ranks to develop themselves and their personalities. The very idea of Dan "ranks" forces some version of technique "rationing" onto a group of individuals who are usually looking towards a little more openess and freedom of thought. I guess my question must by its nature remain somewhat personal, afterall some people never want to leave the "comfort" of being told what to do and what to think. Any comments or ideas? Yours in the Martial Spirit, Brian Myers ------------------------------ From: Bruce.Sims@med.va.gov Date: Tue, 31 Jul 2001 07:56:08 -0500 Subject: the_dojang: RE: Knuckle Push-up stuff Dear T: "...Having just come from a class where the instructor promotes knuckle push ups I was wondering what have your learned about these knuckle push ups? Is it related to the floor the push ups are performed on? Something biomechanical about all of that weight on the knuckles and wrists?..." Probably the easiest way to respond to your questions is to encourage you to grab a copy of Grays Anatomy at the local library and take some time to examine just how the human hand is constructed. Although some people might make a case for knuckle-walking in primates, the fact is that the human hand is not well-designed or intended for accepting impact, especially across the knuckles. To a greater degree one can conditon the hand to accept impact to the edges such as a ridgehand, knifehand or hammerfist. However, dropping someone on a concrete, tile, or even on a mat area simply applies pressures to joints and bones in the hand that were never designed to take that sort of stress. Now, I will offer this qualifier, and here we can take a page from our cousins in the boxing profession who do quite a bit of hand work and conditioning. Wrapping the hand to accept impact would seem to make the use of knuckle push-ups more acceptable in that each individual finger and its articulation would then be protected and supported. I will also freely admit that there are folks in the contact arts of Karate and To-de who routinely practice makiwara (striking post) and report no adverse results. My hats off to them. I also know that there are people who can walk across hot coals with no ill effects, but I wouldn't advocate that to the general public either. (BTW: I am also firmly-- four-square-- against using calesthetics as a form of correction or guidance in teaching the arts. I know that it has been popular to "drop" people-- especially kids-- for push-ups for various infractions. I think this sends the wrong message about the role of health training in a persons' life. I am sure we are smart enough to come up with some better consequence than using an activity which we want the student to accept as good for them.) You also asked about "bunny hops" and I will throw in "duck walks" as well. The knees are designed to work like a hinge and actually have quite a range of motion-- perhaps as much as 120 degrees in some people. Flexing the knee past the 90 degree point begins to create pressures to the knee hinge that, once again, the joint was not designed to take. With younger practitioners such as a teenage population where complete calcification of the bones is still in process you can probably get away with it. However, as we get older, the joints (like people) become more firmly established in their ways. Asking a student to swat down and then walk or jump in that position is a recipe for knee problems. Even when we do "deep knee bends" in class. students are encouraged to point their hands to the floor and to stop their descent when the fingers touch. This allows a deep descent, but keeps the students from using the structure of the knee itself to stop the descent (and also BTW works the quads a bit more). I would not mind keeping this dialogue going regarding the way we help our students condition themselves to learn our respective martial traditions. Of course, we can't get away from needing to do conditioning so that students can better handle the rigors of the arts. Perhaps other teachers can pitch-in with modifications they have made to the drills and exercises that they do to make it more benficial or less harmful to their students. I hope this helps. Best Wishes, Bruce ------------------------------ From: "Dunn, Danny J RASA" Date: Tue, 31 Jul 2001 07:59:08 -0500 Subject: the_dojang: RE: The_Dojang-Digest V8 #447 Mark, I've been studying TSD for the past 20 or so years, but I first learned the technique in my TKD days back in the early to mid 70's. I have also seen the technique in Shotokan and at least on other Japanese style. Can't say what all the TKD folks are doing today, though. Danny Dunn <<<<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>> ------------------------------ From: "Dunn, Danny J RASA" Date: Tue, 31 Jul 2001 08:03:06 -0500 Subject: the_dojang: RE: Master and Mrs Richards soon to be new addition Charles, Congratulations to you and your wife on your new future family addition!!! Danny Dunn ------------------------------ From: "Lasich, Mark D." Date: Tue, 31 Jul 2001 09:07:02 -0400 Subject: the_dojang: Il vs Cho? When is it appropriate to use Il vs Cho? For example, in TangSooDo the first basic form is Kee-Cho Hyung Il-Bu yet the first Pyung-ahn form is Pyung-ahn Cho-Dan! At first Dan you are a Cho-Dan, why not an Il-Dan? In the arts, Mark mark.lasich@alcoa.com ------------------------------ From: Brian Myers Date: Tue, 31 Jul 2001 08:26:20 -0500 Subject: the_dojang: RE: Missing Technique? Mark Lasich asked: " When I studied TangSooDo (US TSK MDK) we utilized 'pakeso-ahnero mahki' (please excuse the spelling), or an Outside-Inside block (closed fist)... After years in the ATA, I realize that Songahm TDK does NOT use that technique! Granted, we do have things like an upset knife-hand strike, which follows much of the same mechanics, but the Outside to Inside block with closed fist seems missing! Inside-Outside block (ahneso-pakero mahki), or 'inner forearm block' IS part of the ATA. So, this begs the question: is this a common technique or just unique to TSD? Thanks. In the arts, Mark. " I would answer as follows: 1) You are correct (as far as I know) in the statement that ATA and Songahm Taekwondo do not teach a block known as : Outside-Inside block. (I will avoid Korean terms for the time being to preserve clarity) 2) If I understand you correctly, you are describing the following characteristics of motion: A) A movement of the arm starting outside the shoulders and moving into a position across some portion of the torso. (Whether at the shoulder level or belt level I think is not important at this stage.) B) The arm is "led" through the movement, presumably an arc (if one focuses on the line drawn by the fist), by either "inner" or "outer" forearm. (Point of clarification : if your arms hang freely at your sides, thumbs to the front, the "inner" forearm is the ridge extending up from the thumb and the "outer" is the ridge extending up from the small finger.) C) Fist remains closed throughout movement, and movement ends with fist close to body. 3) If those assumptions are correct, then the ATA does utilize the Outside-Inside block motions in the following blocks: A) Orange Belt - Double Outer Forearm Block. The "back" hand moves through an arc (although narrow) that moves from outside-to-inside, blocking with outer forearm and maintaining a closed fist. This technique is usually taught to students focusing on the "front" hand, leaving the development of thought concerning the use of the "back" hand for later, when the student's understanding of the "whole" art is better. B) Red Belt - Advanced Double Inner Forearm Block. The hand moving from the low or side position to a position across the chest area moves in the outside-to-inside motion, led by the inner forearm, in a arc. The use of an arc motion in this case allows for more area of coverage in the block without sacrificing speed of technique. This motion is also developed for later use in a much more "devistating" block. C) 1st Dan Decided - "9-Block". In this case the same motion as seen in the Adv. Dbl. Inner Forearm Block is used in moving the hand that stops at the chest level. The arc used here allows for the use of this block as an arm break, disarm tactic, and lends it to be quickly turned into a rather effective armbar/joint lock. Again, the development of this sort of motion started early but due to the nature of this technique and its uses, time is given for the student to develop discipline and control. Again, as with the "development" of weapons, I see this as a case of one art learning the techniques of another and adapting them to suit. Most martial arts have a fairly common base of techniques, excluding the ideas of "hard" and "soft" arts. Many times what one art may call a basic, another art may utilize as only a part of many techniques. Seeing these "changes" and "adaptations" is a key part of truely mastering a martial art, something that I always try to impress on anyone I teach. I hope I have answered your question(s), and if I can be of any further help please feel free to ask(both on the DD, and off). Yours in the Martial Spirit! Brian Myers Brian.Myers@klipsch.com ------------------------------ From: Ray Terry Date: Tue, 31 Jul 2001 7:12:13 PDT Subject: Re: the_dojang: Il vs Cho? > At first Dan you are a Cho-Dan, why not an Il-Dan? We use Il Dan, not Cho Dan. But I believe Cho is beginning. Ray Terry raymail@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com ------------------------------ From: Ray Terry Date: Tue, 31 Jul 2001 7:15:30 PDT Subject: Re: the_dojang: RE: Knuckle Push-up stuff > Probably the easiest way to respond to your questions is to encourage you to > grab a copy of Grays Anatomy at the local library and take some time to > examine just how the human hand is constructed. Although some people might > make a case for knuckle-walking in primates, the fact is that the human hand > is not well-designed or intended for accepting impact, especially across the > knuckles. ?? How are you doing your knuckle pushups to obtain impact? Given the straight line from the two knuckles thru the wrist and up the arm, I always felt more comfortable and natural doing knuckle pushups than I did doing pushups on the palms. ?? Ray Terry raymail@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com ------------------------------ From: Ray Terry Date: Tue, 31 Jul 2001 7:21:39 PDT Subject: the_dojang: . ------------------------------ End of The_Dojang-Digest V8 #448 ******************************** It's a great day for Taekwondo! Support the USTU by joining today. US Taekwondo Union, 1 Olympic Plaza, Ste 104C, Colorado Spgs, CO 80909 719-578-4632 FAX 719-578-4642 ustutkd1@aol.com http://www.ustu.org To unsubscribe from the_dojang-digest send the command: unsubscribe the_dojang-digest -or- unsubscribe the_dojang-digest your.old@address in the BODY (top line, left justified) of a "plain text" e-mail addressed to majordomo@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com. Old digest issues are available via ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com. 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