From: the_dojang-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com To: the_dojang-digest@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Subject: The_Dojang-Digest V8 #449 Reply-To: the_dojang@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Errors-To: the_dojang-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Precedence: The_Dojang-Digest Tues, 31 July 2001 Vol 08 : Num 449 In this issue: Re: the_dojang: Missing Technique? the_dojang: Re: The_Dojang-Digest V8 #448 the_dojang: Dat Sine Wave Thang...Round 2 the_dojang: Re: Dat Sine Wave Thing the_dojang: Re: Knuckle Push-ups the_dojang: Re: Buddhist/Confucian Stuff the_dojang: Korean Weapons the_dojang: Re: Il vs. Cho the_dojang: Re: book cover kick and GM Ji the_dojang: outside-inside block the_dojang: RE: Cho-Dan vs. Il Dan the_dojang: . ========================================================================= The_Dojang, serving the Internet since June 1994. ~1222 members strong! Copyright 1994-2001: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource The premier internet discussion forum devoted to the Korean Martial Arts. Replying to this message will NOT unsubscribe you. To unsubscribe, send "unsubscribe the_dojang-digest" (no quotes) in the body (top line, left justified) of a "plain text" e-mail addressed to majordomo@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com. To send e-mail to this list use the_dojang@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com See the Korean Martial Arts (KMA) FAQ and the online search engine for back issues of The_Dojang at http://www.MartialArtsResource.com Pil Seung! ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Ray Terry Date: Tue, 31 Jul 2001 7:44:36 PDT Subject: Re: the_dojang: Missing Technique? > When I studied TangSooDo (US TSK MDK) we utilized 'pakeso-ahnero mahki' > (please excuse the spelling), or an Outside-Inside block (closed fist)... > [snip] > > So, this begs the question: is this a common technique or just unique to > TSD? Used in TKD, too. A bit slow perhaps, but a very powerful blocking technique. Ray Terry raymail@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com ------------------------------ From: Chereecharmello@aol.com Date: Tue, 31 Jul 2001 10:23:10 EDT Subject: the_dojang: Re: The_Dojang-Digest V8 #448 In a message dated 7/31/01 9:56:17 AM Eastern Daylight Time, the_dojang-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com writes: << For example, in TangSooDo the first basic form is Kee-Cho Hyung Il-Bu yet the first Pyung-ahn form is Pyung-ahn Cho-Dan! At first Dan you are a Cho-Dan, why not an Il-Dan? In the arts, Mark mark.lasich@alcoa.com >> Cho means basic or beginner...Il means one...At the Cho Dan level, you are deemed a "beginner Black Belt" ------------------------------ From: "Craig Stovall" Date: Tue, 31 Jul 2001 10:12:00 -0500 Subject: the_dojang: Dat Sine Wave Thang...Round 2 Robert, Thanks for the clarifications. I only have a few more points and questions. <> "Falling effect"...I mean harnessing the energy provided through momentary freefall to add energy to whatever strike/block/punch that I'm executing. To use an extreme example...if I'm standing straight-legged and then allow my knees to suddenly flex or bend, then gravity will pull me to the earth. This falling effect "creates" energy in my body the same way that a rock thrown off of a building gains energy. With skill and timing, this energy can be transferred through a strike/block/punch. Is this not the same thing that Sine Wave is doing? Harnessing gravity to add impetus to technique, yes? If not, then how does Sine Wave create more power? <> I'd argue that shadowboxing is VERY analagous to kata/poomse/hyungs. Yes, it is a freestyle practice as opposed to the (somewhat) fixed nature of pattern, but I think the concepts are the same. Further, the boxer is practicing the same techniques that he/she would use in a sparring or competitive situation. They train the way they fight, and they fight the way they train...which leads into my next question. If Sine Wave doesn't translate directly to sparring...then what does it translate to? Self-defense? Or, is it merely a method of generating power within the form by harnessing gravity as opposed to creating it through the "traditional" method (those stiff karate guys)? Please explain. Forgive me, but I have to believe that there's a more utilitarian reaon for Sine Wave than just making my forms more powerful without wearing out my body. But if not...so be it. <> Effective how? In what context? If the Sine Wave doesn't translate directly to sparring (your words, not mine), then what's the utility of it? Further, why doesn't it translate to sparring? I have my own opinion about this, but I'll keep it to myself and avoid the rotten eggs being thrown my way. *cough* too slo *cough cough* telegrapi *cough* see you comin a mile aw *cough cough* Pardon me:) The reason I'm asking these snotty questions is because I was under the impression that ITF TKD was still practiced as a fighting/self-defense form...that it hasn't yet become one of the new age self-improvement cults that I see around every corner. If this is so, then where does Sine Wave show up in your fighting? If not sparring...then self-defense? Where? Does it even have a fighting application? What can I say...I'm thick headed. Help me out. After all...that's why we're here, right? Craig "BTW, I now own the copyright on the Sine Wave...sorry General" Stovall _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp ------------------------------ From: danny Date: Tue, 31 Jul 2001 09:10:36 -0600 Subject: the_dojang: Re: Dat Sine Wave Thing I found a pretty well-written piece at website http://www.geocities.com/changhontkd/tkd6.htm Though it says these are the differences between ITF sine wave and WTF linear motion, I think one could substitute most any ecclectic TKD school for the WTF part. They almost all generate power in a purely linear motion. 35. ITF AND WTF DIFFERENCE - One of the main differences between the ITF and WTF styles is power generation. ITF practitioners use a down-up-down movement for most hand and kicking techniques. This sine wave motion that ITF practitioners use is called knee spring. It causes the body to move in a sine like wave resulting in the whole body being involved at the moment of contact with the target. WTF practitioners look very Karate like in many of their movements, stiff but powerful, speedy, linear and the techniques can vary from school to school due to the many kwans that influence this style versus a strict standard in the ITF. The techniques between both groups, though not usually visible at first, chamber differently. The WTF style is sometimes very reminiscent of Karate though it is hard to see with the current Taegeuk poomse. Many are moving closer to full contact but this will vary from school to school. The Olympic style is currently the rage, punching and kicking to body protectors in their sparring for the ever-elusive points for the win. Punches to the head are forbidden. The ITF style stays loose, trying to never let your body get cold and stiff hampering movement, and then it tightens at the moment of impact delivering very powerful strikes. The semi-contact point sparring for the ITF rewards the more complicated technique, but sometimes these high point techniques are not the best to use in a street encounter. Taekwon, Danny ------------------------------ From: "Bruce Sims" Date: Tue, 31 Jul 2001 09:50:36 -0500 Subject: the_dojang: Re: Knuckle Push-ups Dear Ray: "...?? How are you doing your knuckle pushups to obtain impact? Given the straight line from the two knuckles thru the wrist and up the arm, I always felt more comfortable and natural doing knuckle pushups than I did doing pushups on the palms. ?? ..." Sorry. Let me slow down here a bit. The rationale I had gotten for doing push-ups was to build upper-body strength, and I don't think anyone has a problem with that. I am also right there with you when you mention the alignment of the various structures of the hands and arms doing the knuckle-pushups. However, when I have asked as to the advantages of one kind of pushup (palms?) compared to knuckles, the response that I usually got was that it would a.) toughen the skin of the knuckles for striking b.) condition under-lying stuctures to sustain impact in striking c.) compress the meta-carpals and carpals (hand bones) to accept impact d.) sensitize the practitioner to strike with the supported (1st two) rather than unsupported (last 2) knuckles of the hand. My original position is that the hand is not designed to take impact in this fashion (hence the need for special conditioning) and so I suggest that the student is better served by either using hand-wraps or avoiding knuckle push-ups altogether. Best Wishes, Bruce ------------------------------ From: "Bruce Sims" Date: Tue, 31 Jul 2001 10:35:23 -0500 Subject: the_dojang: Re: Buddhist/Confucian Stuff Dear Brian: Thanks for writing back. If its OK I wanted to tweak a couple of points in your post. “…As to accountability, I fully agree that ALL arts must come to terms with finding a way to ensure the quality of it's instructors. …” I would add to this, “..within the context of their art.” I share this because I think there are far too many instructors who have a pretty liberal idea of “quality” which plays fast and loose with the integrity of their art. A little bit ago there was an exchange about the incorporation of weapons from other arts into Korean martial tradition and how those weapons were represented. I can imagine that an instructor could view such an effort as admirable and perhaps his way of promoting quality in the arts. For myself, I don’t support this, but I can understand the argument one could make. “…If I understand you correctly there are 3 modes of teaching Buddhist, Confucian, and Academic. Buddhist offers the greatest freedom of thought for the student, the greatest challenge for the teacher, and little or no good method of ensuring quality generations of instructors. Confucian places more bounds on the freedoms of the student, makes the job of instruction more structured and "linear", but still fails to ensure a good quality control on new instructors. Academic has Confucian student boundaries, an even more detailed and recorded "teacher's manual", and does the best job of quality control on future generations of instructors. Am I close? …” I would probably characterize things about the same with a few word changes. For instance I would characterize the Buddhist model as the “most liberal”. Since it supposes a single pile of information, that pile can be approached, shaped, divided and manipulated in any of a number of ways. When the teacher/student decide that nothing further is to be gained by their association school is over. The Confucian model with its focus on testing and ascendancy through a hierarchy of ranks is, in my opinion, a bit easier on the teacher and a bit tougher on the students than the Buddhist model. The teacher decides what is offered and what hoops are jumped through at each level or rank. Info on one level may—or may not—relate to any other level. Content of respective levels taught at one school may--- or may not – be identical at another school, even a school of the same association. The academic approach identifies a specific curriculum which is organized as a series of ranks with each subsequent dependent on the mastery of the preceeding rank. I think up to this point we are pretty much on the same page. I would propose another option - one which some schools, but very few organizations, ascribe to. A "sliding scale" method….” “…The real rub in my scenario is the place where most organizations fail…” I think the problem as I hear you relate it is actually one of “ownership” Martial Arts practitioners are people who also happen to the students. They might join an organization but they are not “owned by” or “belong to anyone.”That’s the whole point of following a martial art as a path to becoming a better person. Just as one wears a cast for a while until they can use the damaged body part well, one accepts the restrictions of a teachers guidance and coaching until that person can do for themselves. The path is followed for life, but the relationship with a particular teacher may or may not last that long. A good teacher will know when to backoff, or make an appropriate referral to another teacher when they have done all they can do for a student. How many of the people on this DD Net still go back to there 3rd year HS English class every day to remind themselves how to diagram sentences? For that matter, how many attend church every day to remember how to relate productively with their neighbor? Its no wonder that students leave their teachers at inappropriate times and under inappropriate circumstances (see: Black Belt Magazine article). There is no protocol in place in most schools for seeing a student off as a friend when the school has done all that they can do for the student. Nor is there any way to help a student who brings material back to his school integrate that new material within the context of the schools avowed goals and structure. some people never want to leave the "comfort" of being told what to do and what to think. Any comments or ideas?…” Yes--- that this is the saddest commentary of all. We MA teachers are labor-like scholars about punching and kicking, throwing and choking but that same student who has been with us for four years still can’t bring himself to ask his boss for a day-off or maybe a raise. Statistics suggest that the chances of being mugged and having to actually defend one’s Self from deadly force are actually pretty remote. On the other hand we must on a daily basis face conflict, anger, frustration, disappointment, and a host of other ills. So what we produce is a guy who can punch his way to the top of the tournament, but tantrums like a 3-yr-old over a bad call. What the hell is that?! I am not saying that using an Academic approach would solve this. Its not a panacea. However, I think that the Academic approach would require the teacher to have a more intimate involvement with his students growth and less of a chance to shrug off responsibilities. Best Wishes, Brian Bruce ------------------------------ From: Sam Frantz Date: Tue, 31 Jul 2001 12:20:06 -0400 Subject: the_dojang: Korean Weapons I would like to purchase good Ssahng Jeol Bong (nunchaku) for practice and self-defense purposes. Can anybody recommend a good place to buy quality Korean weapons, specifically the Ssahng Jeol Bong? With the information I have now, I would probably order from Century Martial Arts or one of their distributors. Thanks, Sam ------------------------------ From: "Peter Kim" Date: Tue, 31 Jul 2001 12:48:05 -0400 Subject: the_dojang: Re: Il vs. Cho Il is a number.. as in one, two, three.. cho describes "first" or "basic" or "beginning". They are both Korean pronounciation of chinese characters (differen't ones..). In pure Korean, hanna, duhl, saht.. is used to count the numbers.. However, it's kinda hard to explain when to use which ones.. been away from Korea for last 20 yrs or so doesn't really help the matter either.. Pete ------------------------------ From: "ISA CONSULTATION GROUP" Date: Tue, 31 Jul 2001 13:20:38 -0400 Subject: the_dojang: Re: book cover kick and GM Ji Subject: Re: the_dojang: Book cover kick. <<>> Ray, I believe the book he is referring too is *Art of Self-Defense: HAPKIDO* by Joon M. Jee, 7th Dan at that time. I had the book at one time, (no longer though) and I do have the Hapkido Cane techniques on video that was made on Super 8 films, duplicating the book. Of course as always, "I may be wrong"! George Petrotta http://taekwondo.4dw.com/ http://hapkido.4dw.com/ http://gpetrott.webjump.com/index.html ISA CONSULTATION GROUP includes ISA Martial Arts, ISA Web Design and ISA Consulting Services! _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp ------------------------------ From: "Christa Stevens" Date: Tue, 31 Jul 2001 12:44:06 -0500 Subject: the_dojang: outside-inside block FYI outside-inside block is also used in the Japanese styles of Shotokan and Shito-Ryu. if anyone really cares. :) I have been studying Shito-Ryu for many years in addition to TKD and, I'm not a big fan of the outside-inside block for applicability purposes because of the way we were taught to fold for the block (in Shito-Ryu). The fold leaves the whole torso open and vulnerable to attack. Christa _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp ------------------------------ From: Rudolph George-P27574 Date: Tue, 31 Jul 2001 10:43:02 -0700 Subject: the_dojang: RE: Cho-Dan vs. Il Dan <*> Re: the_dojang: Il vs Cho? <*> > At first Dan you are a Cho-Dan, why not an Il-Dan? The use of "Cho-Dan" is a legacy of the Japanese influence on Korean martial arts. In Japanese, first Dan is "Sho-Dan", which the Koreans pronounce "Cho-Dan". One note about the TSD/MDK forms that you mention Mark, the Ki-Cho series and the Pyung-Ahn series. Hwang Kee created the Ki-Cho forms in 1947, and named them accordingly, using Korean terms. The Pyung-Ahn series, the other TSD/MDK serieses are quite widely used across many Japanese martial arts systems (Shotokan, Isshin-Ryu, Shorin-Ryu, Wado-Ryu, for example). Some systems use them as black belt forms, some don't--but that's how they got "Cho-Dan" attached to the name. Having said all that, it's perfectly okay for yours, or any instructor, to call the appropriate rank "Il Dan" instead of "Cho Dan"--it just would not be "traditional" to do that. - ------------------------- George Rudolph Mad Scientist Motorola ASDC - ------------------------- ------------------------------ From: Ray Terry Date: Tue, 31 Jul 2001 11:18:32 PDT Subject: the_dojang: . ------------------------------ End of The_Dojang-Digest V8 #449 ******************************** It's a great day for Taekwondo! Support the USTU by joining today. US Taekwondo Union, 1 Olympic Plaza, Ste 104C, Colorado Spgs, CO 80909 719-578-4632 FAX 719-578-4642 ustutkd1@aol.com http://www.ustu.org To unsubscribe from the_dojang-digest send the command: unsubscribe the_dojang-digest -or- unsubscribe the_dojang-digest your.old@address in the BODY (top line, left justified) of a "plain text" e-mail addressed to majordomo@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com. Old digest issues are available via ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com. Copyright 1994-2001: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource Standard disclaimers apply.