From: the_dojang-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com To: the_dojang-digest@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Subject: The_Dojang-Digest V8 #457 Reply-To: the_dojang@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Errors-To: the_dojang-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Precedence: The_Dojang-Digest Thur, 2 Aug 2001 Vol 08 : Num 457 In this issue: the_dojang: RE: Real Knife Stuff the_dojang: Re: The_Dojang-Digest V8 #455 the_dojang: Capener the_dojang: Dae Gee Hyul and San Guk Kwan the_dojang: RE: Real Knife Stuff the_dojang: RE: Something to talk about Re: the_dojang: RE: Real Knife Stuff the_dojang: Re: further knees the_dojang: Re: The_Dojang-Digest V8 #455 the_dojang: Re: Cho dan bo the_dojang: Re: Academia the_dojang: Muye Tobo T'ongji the_dojang: . ========================================================================= The_Dojang, serving the Internet since June 1994. ~1000 members strong! Copyright 1994-2001: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource The premier internet discussion forum devoted to the Korean Martial Arts. Replying to this message will NOT unsubscribe you. To unsubscribe, send "unsubscribe the_dojang-digest" (no quotes) in the body (top line, left justified) of a "plain text" e-mail addressed to majordomo@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com. To send e-mail to this list use the_dojang@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com See the Korean Martial Arts (KMA) FAQ and the online search engine for back issues of The_Dojang at http://www.MartialArtsResource.com Pil Seung! ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Michael Rowe (outlook)" Date: Thu, 2 Aug 2001 14:22:27 -0500 Subject: the_dojang: RE: Real Knife Stuff <> So you no longer teach the use of a valuable tool because someone who used your training to do something the state though was inappropriate? << First let me tell you that this person was a very timid individual, he could not deal with confrontation.>> We he apparently overcame this handicap. << Well one night him and his wife and 2 other girls were out at 2am in Ybor City, Fl. Now this area has been a known trouble area at night and he broke my number one rule (don't go to Ybor at night)>> Mistake #1 << Anyway 3 large bruisers started harassing his wife and girl friends, he was about 30 feet away observing the situation as the words began to fly. Then one of the body builders noticed that he was paying attention to what was going on and wanted to know if he wanted a piece of the action and started to rapidly approach him.>> Mistake #2 - should have contacted authorities right away or told someone to call 911. << He started backing up and by this point had his brand new Gerber tactical folder in his hand and open,>> Mistake #3 - In most states (Florida Included) He is not allowed to brandish or present to bear a weapon unless lethal force is a possibility that needs to be defended against. << as the attacker swung at him, he slashed, catching him from the collar bone and across his chest. The attacker did not realize he had the knife or the fact that he was cut, so he kept punching as my student was on the ground trying to shield himself, with the Gerber in his hand in a reverse grip. So as he is punching him he is also cutting up his own arms and not realizing it. After a few seconds, blood is everywhere and the attacker learns that he just messed with the wrong person (over 300 stitches). When police arrive they knick name my student "The master chef" and arrest him.>> As they should lethal force was not called for and defense with the knife was not needed. Instead the student should have been using the knife as an blunt impact weapon. Very effective and not as dangerous legally. << Two and a half years later and 30,000.00 in attorney's fees and nearly lost his marriage. In the end he got 6 months probation and they withheld adjudication and neither mans life will ever be the same. I still carry a knife myself, but in a self-defense situation I would not use it unless I would be willing to use a gun in the same situation.>> A knife should only be utilized when lethal force is allowed for cutting defense. All students of the blade must be taught this from day one and re-enforced every lesson. Michael Rowe Dan Il Kwan - Gym of Unity Unity Church of Omaha 3424 N 90th Street Omaha, Nebraska 68134 ------------------------------ From: "Grant D. Watson" Date: Thu, 2 Aug 2001 12:24:27 -0700 (PDT) Subject: the_dojang: Re: The_Dojang-Digest V8 #455 Is this a personal preference thing at your school? Our school uses varying degrees of black trim for different dan ranks -- not that I really understand the system. > Richard. I have noticed this lately with black or > blue trim uniforms as > well. At least the Pro Force brand. Of course, on > the blue trim, I've > usually had the trim provided by my GM sewn on. One > student recently bought > a blue-trimmed Pro Force uniform, washed it warm/hot > and not only did it > slightly run, it faded too fast. Beside liking a > professional look to a new > uniform, I hate to see new dans "looking" > experienced without actually > breaking the uniform in . So, when I got a > similar new black trim > Pro-Force uniform,I washed it in cold water the > first few times and it > neither bled, nor faded too fast. But, I don't wear > the black trim that > often either. Just another observation. > > Dana __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Make international calls for as low as $.04/minute with Yahoo! Messenger http://phonecard.yahoo.com/ ------------------------------ From: Ray Terry Date: Thu, 02 Aug 2001 13:02:31 PDT Subject: the_dojang: Capener Just a pointer to the excellent work of Steven D. Capener on the development of Taekwondo in Korea (http://www.bstkd.com/CAPENER.1.HTM). It does an excellent job IMHO of addressing Karate's theory of "one blow one death", how/why that made its way into early Taekwondo, and how it was eventually dismissed and replaced in Taekwondo by full-contact sparring creating a martial art separate and unique from Japanese Karate-do. Also interesting to note that another Korean brought full-contact sparring to Japanese Karate-do, that person being Mas Oyama. Ray Terry raymail@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com ------------------------------ From: "Master Frank Clay" Date: Thu, 2 Aug 2001 15:36:47 -0400 Subject: the_dojang: Dae Gee Hyul and San Guk Kwan Sure, Its been a long time since I practiced either form, but SAng Guk Kwan begins with single finger strikes to the Sternocleidomastoid area of the neck, right beisde the trachea... then are withdrawn with a "SSSSS" sound and the attack is rapid while the retreat is slow. Dae Gee Hyul "Finding the vital points of the earth" is notable in that it has a movementthat looks like someone holding someone on the ground and moving in a hopping motion laterally... almost like you are slamming them as you junp. (LOL always reminded me of a monkey :)). Hope this helps. ------------------------------ From: "Craig Stovall" Date: Thu, 02 Aug 2001 14:45:48 -0500 Subject: the_dojang: RE: Real Knife Stuff Thanks to Phil for sharing that sobering story about his student. This story struck me on several different levels. My first reaction was sympathy for the student due to the hassle that he had to go through from simply defending himself. However, upon reflection I'd say that he got off easy. Was that level of force (drawing a knife) really necessary in light of the threat that was facing him? I'm not trying to find fault here...just reinforcing the fact that the law can get real ugly toward the defender if the level of force is taken to an "inappropriate level". Lord knows that hindsight is 20/20, and I'm sure he was more concerned over his companions' safety than his own. Heck, if I ran things he would have gotten a medal pinned on his chest, but I don't run things (thank the man upstairs for that fact when you hit your knees tonight). Do we have any LEO's or DA's on the list that could give us a mini-lecture on what's appropriate in various circumstances? Anybody got any good online (or offline) resources that interested parties could use to educate themselves on these matters? I know I could use more information. On to purely physical matters...isn't it amazing that the creep kept on attacking long after he was badly cut? I think these types of anecdotes are useful in getting those who train for self-defense purposes to take a step back and reevaluate what they're doing. Here's a thug that kept pounding away even though he had recieved lacerations that would require 300 stitches to repair. Ask yourself...would your sidekick stop that guy? How about your reverse punch? Think you could wrist-lock that a$$h@le into submission just like Master John Doe shows every Thursday night at his stripmall dojang? One punch, one kill...HIYAAAAHHHH!!! Yeah, right. I think Phil hit the nail square on the head...DON'T BREAK RULE NUMBER ONE! If you're going to go catting around during the wee hours in places inhabited by land sharks...be prepared to suffer the consequences. Otherwise, you run the risk of facing the age-old quandary, "judged by 12, or carried by 6". BTW...a question for Phil. You sort of implied that you stopped teaching knife after this incident. Was this from fear of legal retribution, or was this a moral/ethical choice? Just curious. Craig "Always carry love in your heart, and a pitbull in your pocket" Stovall ;) with apologies to Meghan!!! _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp ------------------------------ From: Bruce.Sims@med.va.gov Date: Thu, 2 Aug 2001 14:53:12 -0500 Subject: the_dojang: RE: Something to talk about Dear Dakin: ".... Perhaps there is a problem today with mastery of content in the schools, but if there is I have a feeling it derives from a belief that education is essential for a democracy, and that means we have to teach all the students, not just the ones with aptitude, adequate study time, and money to pay for it.... .... Ok, that's it! I know we don't need to turn this forum into a discussion of education so that's all I'll say. If anyone wants to chat (or flame), just email me privately, ok?..." No way!! You don't get off the hook THAT easy, my friend! :-) To tell you the truth, Dakin, thats exactly where I hoped this little discussion would go! In all seriousness I believe that we actually do need to to take a look at the nature of our teaching methodology in the Korean MA (if not MA in general). With a tip of my hat to my past teaching experience in the public schools I certainly support the idea that education is NOT a democracy. If the students could deport themselves constructively so as to get their needs met within the context of their society what the heck would they need further education for, right? They come to school because these are ideas and skills the student needs to learn. Where I balk is when the pendulum swings all the way to the other direction and the teacher becomes an absolute authority rather than a coach or guide. Schools exist for the very belief that students are capable of rational thought and growth, needing only guidance to bring those attributes to fruition. Schools exist because we believe that students can grow and change. In fact, the school is there to create an atmosphere and opportunities to encourage this to happen such that in time it becomes habitual. I have seen way too many schools and classes where students are essentially regarded as things to be corrected, fixed or "straightened out" rather than junior partners in a cooperative spirit of learning and discovery. In my classes I begin with a new student by assuming that student is with me for only a short while and then they will move on to someplace else. I also assume that the student already "knows" Hapkido, but needs help in remembering that they know it. I pitch in by coaching the right moves out of them, helping them to give fancy names to otherwise very natural responses, and serving in a role as "quality control." I have not had any students who have come into my class and asked to be drilled until they can't stand-up, impressed into a rigid hierarchy that debases their personhood, or to be turned into "good little Koreans." I have however regularly been presented with individuals who are young, inexperienced, sometimes scared or traumatized, confused or uninformed and are seeking help to address these conditions. These folks do not need "GM-s," "KJ-s," patrilinear succession, or organizational hype. What they do need is someone to give them a glimpse of a method which will help them resolve conflicts in their lives. In my classes I use "shaping" which as you might expect is a method I borrow from my counseling practice. I can't know what other people use in their classes but I can't think of any better time to talk about it then now, yes? Best Wishes, Bruce ------------------------------ From: Ray Terry Date: Thu, 02 Aug 2001 13:56:17 PDT Subject: Re: the_dojang: RE: Real Knife Stuff > A knife should only be utilized when lethal force is allowed for cutting > defense. Not exactly sure what 'for cutting defense' means. ?? Ray Terry raymail@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com ------------------------------ From: FGS & KVF Date: Thu, 02 Aug 2001 13:27:40 -0700 Subject: the_dojang: Re: further knees > Gentlemen, > > There are different forces applied to the Knee joint depending on the type > of exercise, flexibility, supporting muscles..ect. > A slow-deep knee bends on an average adult with no flexibility issues > surrounding the Joint will not cause damage to the joint but rather prevent > damage and arthritic conditions within the joint. I must stress SLOW, as > what has been already mentioned, the type and rate of exercise will > determine the benefits or damage. In power lifting (Olympic style) the > front squat is performed in a deep knee bend to prevent knee damage yet the > rear squat is performed at no lower than 90 degrees to prevent injury to the > knee. The overall physiology of the exercise needs to be taken into > consideration and of course what effect do you want from the exercise. > "My question is...why do duck walks...unless your a duck" > Best regards, > Kevin M. Janisse Ok, for the adult with no joint issues doing deep squats with body wt. slowly or for activities of daily living will not injure. However, as a PT, I must let you know that as the adult body ages, if he/she has an occupation requiring repetitive deep squats, or begins or continues exercise regimes with that motion involved, a PT will generally be seeing them. As your body ages, the cartilage gets less elastic and decreased blood flow, so what worked on a young body is not so good for a 40 and up body. We see lots of patients with no prior knee injuries who tear their meniscus doing deep squats with weights or jumping. Their puzzlement always surrounds how they got the injury since they have never had probs b4 or have been doing this their whole life. Welcome to body mechanics, aging, and stress strain concepts. Spunky ------------------------------ From: Neal Konecky Date: Thu, 2 Aug 2001 16:54:07 -0700 (PDT) Subject: the_dojang: Re: The_Dojang-Digest V8 #455 First, a basic overview. Sine wave is a part of what is called the "Theory of Power". In this, General Choi (get over it -- it's easier for me to use this title) explains how the student "can condition himself to use 100 percent of his potential..." I would be very interested to see a study comparing use of the sine wave to someone who has no training, a trained boxer (obviously for hand techniques only) and a trained martial artist whose style does not teach or use the sine wave. Preferably I would like to see the results include a measurement of the force generated at impact. (There is a machine that measures the psi at impact although have no idea what it is called) Clearly this addresses only the question of power generated, not the length of time that it takes to execute a technique. If someone has devised such a test I would be interested to see the results of this as well. Please let me know if they have seen the results of such a test. Neal Konecky ===== "Our government, conceived in freedom and purchased with blood, can be preserved only by constant vigilance" William Jennings Bryan __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Make international calls for as low as $.04/minute with Yahoo! Messenger http://phonecard.yahoo.com/ ------------------------------ From: ABurrese@aol.com Date: Thu, 02 Aug 2001 21:00:05 EDT Subject: the_dojang: Re: Cho dan bo In the schools I trained at in Korea, we used a dan bo rank, but not cho dan bo. I asked Yi Saeng and she said different schools may use different terms, she's not sure since the only martial arts she has been involved in are with the same Hapkido and Qigong instructors that I had. The dan bo rank I held was between 1st gup (red) and il dan (1st black) Dan bo wore a black belt, but did not have dan rank yet. Just saying hello from California> Alain ------------------------------ From: "K T" Date: Fri, 03 Aug 2001 11:39:59 +1000 Subject: the_dojang: Re: Academia Tough test indeed. The rest of the exam uses empirical measurement then in question 7 it changes from questions in feet to answers in meters. Very advanced for 1895. Regards, Noel Doney _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp ------------------------------ From: "Andrew Pratt" Date: Fri, 3 Aug 2001 10:50:08 +0900 Subject: the_dojang: Muye Tobo T'ongji Ken, You wrote: >> I have four copies of the book, 1st is the original transcript the 2nd and updated version writting in hangul, the 3rd is with nice photos and easy to follow instructions (if you can read Korean that is) and my 4th is the English version. << Who was the author of the hangul version? There have been various translations in Korean. Is it soft-back or hard-back? Do the pictures make it look very Chinese or something that might be called 'Korean' style?? Andrew ------------------------------ From: Ray Terry Date: Thu, 02 Aug 2001 19:49:05 PDT Subject: the_dojang: . ------------------------------ End of The_Dojang-Digest V8 #457 ******************************** It's a great day for Taekwondo! Support the USTU by joining today. US Taekwondo Union, 1 Olympic Plaza, Ste 104C, Colorado Spgs, CO 80909 719-578-4632 FAX 719-578-4642 ustutkd1@aol.com http://www.ustu.org To unsubscribe from the_dojang-digest send the command: unsubscribe the_dojang-digest -or- unsubscribe the_dojang-digest your.old@address in the BODY (top line, left justified) of a "plain text" e-mail addressed to majordomo@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com. Old digest issues are available via ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com. Copyright 1994-2001: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource Standard disclaimers apply.