From: the_dojang-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com To: the_dojang-digest@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Subject: The_Dojang-Digest V8 #459 Reply-To: the_dojang@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Errors-To: the_dojang-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Precedence: The_Dojang-Digest Fri, 3 Aug 2001 Vol 08 : Num 459 In this issue: the_dojang: RE: Real Knife Stuff the_dojang: Education the_dojang: RE: MYTBTJ Stuff the_dojang: Copyrights and Grit the_dojang: RE: Dressed to kill the_dojang: Dan Bo and Trim the_dojang: Re: Copyrights the_dojang: Re: The_Dojang-Digest V8 #441 the_dojang: Use of MA in real world the_dojang: Knife Defense the_dojang: Babysitting the_dojang: Erik Paulson Seminar In Livingston NJ the_dojang: . ========================================================================= The_Dojang, serving the Internet since June 1994. ~1000 members strong! Copyright 1994-2001: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource The premier internet discussion forum devoted to the Korean Martial Arts. 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To send e-mail to this list use the_dojang@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com See the Korean Martial Arts (KMA) FAQ and the online search engine for back issues of The_Dojang at http://www.MartialArtsResource.com Pil Seung! ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Kevin Janisse Date: Fri, 3 Aug 2001 07:22:14 -0700 (PDT) Subject: the_dojang: RE: Real Knife Stuff <> I am not a law expert by any means but I have been edjucated by some police enforcement officials and one rule of defense (in the State Illinois) that stands out more than any other rule is "Any force used in defense which is greater than the offensive force will be considered as assult" It might be worded different but my point is that...If your punched-you can only punch (or less) back, If your attacked with a knife-you can only use a knife (or less) back, and believe it or not if they have a bat/club you still can't use a knife. I have heard of countless stories of persons sent to jail because they only defended themselves. We might have a messed up law system and unless your name is Bill Gates, we have to live by it. I would highly recommend that all instructors share some of the laws with their students to help prevent simple mistakes from ruining their lives. Regards, Kevin M. Janisse _______________________________________________________ Send a cool gift with your E-Card http://www.bluemountain.com/giftcenter/ ------------------------------ From: mtomlins@mail.volusia.k12.fl.us Date: Fri, 3 Aug 2001 10:30:50 -0400 Subject: the_dojang: Education Rudy, What would you do to relieve the problem in the education system? Have you done anything about it yet? Are you a teacher in school systems? Have you visited any "real" schools lately? Have you talked to any teachers about what you consider to be problems? I am curious as to how far your dedication in this matter goes. Michael Tomlinson **************************************************************************** This email and any files transmitted with it are confidential and intended solely for the use of the individual or entity to whom they are addressed. If you have received this email in error please notify the system manager at administrator@volusia.k12.fl.us. **************************************************************************** ------------------------------ From: Bruce.Sims@med.va.gov Date: Fri, 3 Aug 2001 09:39:27 -0500 Subject: the_dojang: RE: MYTBTJ Stuff Dear Andy: "....I have not been following this thread recently however I have a question. Where did the forms on the Turtle Press videos come from? Where they just made up? I have the book and dont see how the forms came to be...." The forms on the video tapes are the product of a group in Korea who have worked to reconstruct the hyung in the MYTBTJ to some sense of how they were most likely performed. There are a few short-comings that need to be considered in a project such as this. 1.) The manner in which the techniques are identified don't always speak to the biomechanics of the technique. Usually the title attempts to capture the essense of the technique. "Dragon fishing for pearls" obviously does not allude to a real dragon or pearls but attempts to capture the nature rather than just the mechanics of the technique. Problem is that leaves a lot of latitude for executing that particular technique depending on ones' background or application. The good news is that --- well-- that leaves a lot of latitude for executing that particular technique depending on ones' background or application. :-) 2.) We don't necessarily know the timing or rythymn of the hyung. Like musical notes in a score, hyung are more than a string of movements punched out like the ticking of a watch. There are slow movements and fast, tight and expansive movements both. Its hard to know exactly how to "play" those movements just reading off of a sheet of paper. 3.) We don't necessarily know the preparatory moves that provide for the transition from one technique to another or why one technique necessarily follows another in the order that they do. Sometimes people wonder why I seem to obsess about the various contributions of the Japanese and Chinese culture to the Korean martial traditions and this problem speaks to that effort. Perhaps by examining Daito-ryu we will learn a more sophisticated way of expressing Hapkido. Perhaps by examining Northern Praying Mantis Chuan Fa we will know Kuk Sool Won better. From what I understand, the folks that have been revivifying the hyung in the MYTBTJ have been working on this for quite a while and their efforts have been quite a bit more than merely taking the pictures in the book and putting them in motion. I am going to guess that what we are seeing on the tape is probably pretty accurate. I will also be the first to say that I am fully prepared for at least some variance. In Kumdo, one of the traditional hyung BON KUK GUEM BOP pops up in a number of styles and you would be surprized at how much variance there is from place to place. Hope this is of some help. Best Wishes, Bruce . ------------------------------ From: Clothahump Date: Fri, 03 Aug 2001 10:43:54 -0500 Subject: the_dojang: Copyrights and Grit > > From: "Craig Stovall" > Date: Wed, 25 Jul 2001 16:17:49 -0500 > Subject: the_dojang: Copyright THIS!!! > > In regards to this business (pun intended) about the ATA copyrighting it's > forms. > > Are there any attorneys on the list that can attest to the legality of > copyrighting a martial arts form? When I first heard about this, I was > assuming that the NAMES of the forms were copyrighted...but additional > comments have led me to believe that the actual FORM itself is copyrighted. > > Is this possible? How do you copyright a series of bodily movements? If > this is possible, I'm going to copyright all of the boxing combinations that > I can think of, and then force Roy Jones, Lennox Lewis, et al to pay me a > royalty fee for using these combos in a fight. Maybe I can copyright the > motion of snapping a football between ones legs, and then make the NFL pony > up just to get their season going. Ohhhhhh...I be so smart!!! This is > better than selling Grit magazine! The copyrighting of the Songahm forms is based on the same intellectual property law that allows copyrighting of specific dance movements to form a routine. The individual techniques, obviously, cannot be copyrighted; it's the arrangement of the techniques into a specific, identifiable pattern that is copyrighted. ATA did this because it has a very strong quality control program. The Songahm form system is the heart and soul of the ATA and it stands to reason that ATA has a vested interest in seeing that the forms are done and taught correctly. Good luck selling Grit - sounds like you'll need it.... ------------------------------ From: Bruce.Sims@med.va.gov Date: Fri, 3 Aug 2001 09:51:54 -0500 Subject: the_dojang: RE: Dressed to kill Dear Grant: "...Is this a personal preference thing at your school? >Our school uses varying degrees of black trim for >different dan ranks -- not that I really understand >the system...." I'll go you one better! :-) Does anyone on the Net have an idea of what a uniform reflect Korean Martial tradition would actually look like? The Japanese have their Do-gi and hakama and the Chinese have the long blouse with the frogs on the front. I have seen various organizations such as the WHF, HRD and KSW using their characteristic uniforms. I personally use both a heavy dbl-weave Judo gi and a lighter black canvas uniform (not at the same time :-) ) I started wondering with all this talk about uniform trim if anyone has ever thought what a "traditional" uniform for Korean MA would be. Just for fun, Bruce ------------------------------ From: Charles Richards Date: Fri, 3 Aug 2001 08:59:52 -0700 (PDT) Subject: the_dojang: Dan Bo and Trim Chime in with Danny here Cho Dan Bo is a term used in (some)TSD to denote a Black Belt Candidate. I'm guessing it is similar to a Decided Black Belt vs a 1st Degree Black belt (ANY TKD takers?). It is the limbo land between 1st gup and 1st Dan. The same NGB Danny is refering to also uses Boo and Sunim prefixes as in Boo Sa Bum Nim for 3rd Dans and Sunim Sa Bum Nim for 5th Dans being deputy or senior master respectively...I'm guessing the literal translation is something like "basic dan almost" :-) At my school I will be using the term for my 1st gups. The blue trim Y-neck tops are for the traditional MDK guys and Soo Bahk Do guys with the Blue Dan belts...Master Mac has one somewhere :-). As far as I know Pro-Force and Sang Moo Sa are the only providers. Moving to the Black trim adds Hyashi(TC), Century and a few others I'm sure. What's really rare is the Midnight Blue Belt with Red central stripe. I believe Sang Moo Sa is the ONLY source for those. Somewhere I read that in some styles the amount of trim denotes either blackbelt, instructor, or master instructor....interesting? At my school we use black belts and black trim for dan (around the cuff and all edges and lapels) and no trim for gups. KISS Yours In Jung Do, Charles Richards Moja Kwan TSD __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Make international calls for as low as $.04/minute with Yahoo! Messenger http://phonecard.yahoo.com/ ------------------------------ From: Clothahump Date: Fri, 03 Aug 2001 11:06:14 -0500 Subject: the_dojang: Re: Copyrights > From: Dave Weller > Date: Thu, 26 Jul 2001 15:45:25 -0500 > Subject: the_dojang: Copyrighted forms > > Several comments have been made about the ATA's copyright of the Songahm poomse. I noticed on one ATA website that they kindly listed all the movements in the Songahm poomse. One might, with diligence, learn the poomse from this publicly placed material. Would the learner be violating the copyright? Or would the use of a public vechicle such as the web to give step by step instruction in these patterns constitute a copyright violation (can't imagine how you'd violate your own copyright but the question does come to mind.)? ...snip... Good comments, Mr. Weller. The best way to look at the copyrighting of the forms is to compare it to copyrighting a song. Suppose I write a song. You obtain a copy of it in some way. 1. You buy it. I get a royalty for it. You get unlimited usage of that recording. This is the "correct" way to do it, and can be likened to a student signing up in the school and being taught the copyrighted form. 2. Your buddy buys it and tapes a copy for you. Technically, this is a copyright violation. I didn't get the royalty from the sale. This would be like my student in #1 going home and teaching a copyrighted form to his next door neighbor. I'm not going to get really bent about this, because more than likely, you'll wind up buying the song for yourself. And the neighbor is probably going to wind up joining my school in the long run. 3. Your buddy buys it, mass produces it and sells it, like Hong Kong does with every CD and video known to man. Or Napster. Now I'll go after this guy for copyright violation. And ATA does enforce its copyright against non-ATA instructors teaching the Songahm forms. The forms are intellectual property to ATA, just as the song I wrote is intellectual property to me. If an ATA licensed school operator puts the forms up on a website and someone learns them off the website, they have technically not violated copyright. If they turn around and teach those forms, they are violating copyright, because ATA has said that only certified instructors, or people teaching under their direction, can legally teach the forms. Let's be realistic about something, though - if they learn it off the website, the odds are they're going to learn it wrong in the first place. No book will ever replace working one-on-one with an instructor. ------------------------------ From: Clothahump Date: Fri, 03 Aug 2001 11:09:33 -0500 Subject: the_dojang: Re: The_Dojang-Digest V8 #441 > From: "Meghan Gardner" > Date: Thu, 26 Jul 2001 23:17:36 -0400 > Subject: the_dojang: Copyrighting > > Cliff writes: > > < prostitutes the art for the money - and I'm not talking about "making a > living" money.>> > > I don't see the difference. Any money an artist makes from their creation > is rightfully earned. In your mind, who should be the one to determine what > is "making a living" and what is "prostitution" (which is actually a > respectable career in some cultures). ...snip... > <> > > Likely, and if the creator cared, you would be successfully sued for > copyright infringement. > Excellent statements, Ms. Gardner. And FWIW, I understand that ATA has successfully defended its copyright against people who left the organization, changed a move or two and continued to teach the forms. ------------------------------ From: "TNT-Police Combatives ." Date: Fri, 03 Aug 2001 09:11:15 -0700 Subject: the_dojang: Use of MA in real world Greetings all, This is a good thread in that it brings up a very important issue - legal defensibility. Once I started teaching police combatives, I realized that normal MA training would not be sufficient, a short version was needed to transfer the skills in a short time period. Part of that process was study of legal use of force. Many of the defense techniques I had been practicing in the dojang for years were not suitable for legal use. The defense technique had to match the attack. I soon went over my entire MA curriculum, and noticed that many of the defense techniques used excessive force. For example, a wrist grab from an opponent would result in a knife hand to the throat. If someone grabs your arm and you crush their trachea, you will be charged with assault, and may be civily sued. There are however, situations where the grab SHOULD result in a high level of force use (kidnap etc.). As instructors, we need to be sure that what we are teaching is appropriate for actual use. Our students will react to threats how they have been trained. If a student is taught correct force response to certain threats, and they are instructed on the legal use of their skills, there should not be a problem standing by them if they do the right thing. If they themselves cannot articulate the reasons for the force they used in a situation, it is not your job to defend them, unless an overview of the known facts suggest they acted correctly within the law. I have testified several times in defense of my police students. Most of that testimony was not whether the force used was appropriate, but was of whether the officer used skills taught to them in my program. So far, all have used the techniques correctly in situations that demanded them. I was also able to illustrate that the techniques used were lower on the force continuum than techniques that COULD have been used...the officers used less force than they could have. Police actions are scrutinized because they are 'supposed' to have more skill than the average crackhead. A trained martial artist may be held to the same standard. The "well sir, since you have been training for 8 years in Tibetan Gopher Throwing, why couldn't you have just held the poor misunderstood youth down until 'proper' authorities arrived? Why did you do that fancy kick to his face?" defense and line of questioning is out there. We need to be able to articulate the need for the techniques we teach when faced with certain attacks & we need to be able to transfer that knowledge to our students who may be faced with using their skills to defend themselves. There was a TKD magazine a while back that offered 4 or 5 defenses against an attack. The defenses were done by respected practicioners. Some defenses were great, others so extravagant it was silly. Most of the issues had one thing in common...most showed at least one example by a trained MAist using excessive...very excessive force against a relatively minor attack. Martial arts work great against people who have no training. An over zealous defense in the dojang may not cause injury to the partner, but may cause some fairly cool damage in the moron on the street who is attacking you. Take Care, Mark Gajdostik _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp ------------------------------ From: Charles Richards Date: Fri, 3 Aug 2001 09:16:32 -0700 (PDT) Subject: the_dojang: Knife Defense I guess my options for Georgia are shaping up like 1. Glock 22 strong side directional draw in plain view 2. Good Ole Buck or Case knife in the blue jeans pocket 3. Huntin' knife on belt in plain view 4. Ink pen for pain compliance point strikes 5. All of the above :-) Seriously, I am reconsidering my posiiton on firearms given the legalities of personal defense with a knife. I would never carry a cheap or dull knife. If you're going to use a tool use the best and keep it well maintained. I do know two healthy Hapkido Players that have been known to carry a cane in their car or through airport security :-) I really appreciate the true story about the Gerber knife defense. I have always been reluctant to teach knife techniques to 15 and under because it may come back to me, or because the student may not be mature enough to make a use it/don't use it decision...and if a student of mine was involved in a knife defense, I too would want to stand by them through the aftermath...tough call either way. Regards, Charles R. Moja Kwan Carry Jung Do in your heart and a Glock in Georgia __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Make international calls for as low as $.04/minute with Yahoo! Messenger http://phonecard.yahoo.com/ ------------------------------ From: DrgnSlyr5@aol.com Date: Fri, 3 Aug 2001 13:55:19 EDT Subject: the_dojang: Babysitting From another list, with the author's permission: I believe that many parents nowdays use martial arts courses as a form of babysitting service, and as a means of trying to instill some form of discipline which they are either too busy, or too lazy to do at home. Store front schools, down here at least, all offer introductory programs targeted at school age children. These are short term sessions, usually three months, that provide a free gi, special classes, and other incentives. Maybe one out of twenty students actually go on to really train past this introductory program phase. These programs make lots of money for the school owner and give junior instructors a chance to sharpen their teaching skills, but on the down side, they can be very discouraging for both the instructors, and the more serious students due to true lack of interest, and support of the parents. I've seen several very good, hard working instructors throw up their hands and walk out in frustration because order was almost impossible to maintain in this "babysitting " environment. I realize that school owners have high overhead and operating expenses to deal with, and these "karate kid" programs help to keep the doors open so that the more dedicated and focused adepts can learn and grow with their chosen art. I guess some where along the line, the balance is maintained, and maybe, just maybe, out of those thirty screaming heathen yuppy larva, there may be one that will listen, learn and grow. And also, there may be that one scared, young soul, who will find self esteem and inner strength. This is reason enough to open the doors another day. Bill ------------------------------ From: Ray Terry Date: Fri, 03 Aug 2001 11:32:02 PDT Subject: the_dojang: Erik Paulson Seminar In Livingston NJ Forwarded message: on August 11th and 12th covering combat submission grappling. Time - 9:30 to 3:30 both days Location: Integrated Martial Arts & Fitness 113 S. Livingston Ave Livingston NJ 07039 (973) 422-1500 email - eskrima@hotmail.com Cost $120 both days $65 one day Call or email for info and directions. Don Edwards eskrima@hotmail.com ------------------------------ From: Ray Terry Date: Fri, 03 Aug 2001 12:03:14 PDT Subject: the_dojang: . ------------------------------ End of The_Dojang-Digest V8 #459 ******************************** It's a great day for Taekwondo! Support the USTU by joining today. US Taekwondo Union, 1 Olympic Plaza, Ste 104C, Colorado Spgs, CO 80909 719-578-4632 FAX 719-578-4642 ustutkd1@aol.com http://www.ustu.org To unsubscribe from the_dojang-digest send the command: unsubscribe the_dojang-digest -or- unsubscribe the_dojang-digest your.old@address in the BODY (top line, left justified) of a "plain text" e-mail addressed to majordomo@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com. Old digest issues are available via ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com. Copyright 1994-2001: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource Standard disclaimers apply.