From:      the_dojang-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com
To:        the_dojang-digest@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com
Subject:   The_Dojang-Digest V8 #463
Reply-To:  the_dojang@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com
Errors-To: the_dojang-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com
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The_Dojang-Digest             Sun, 5 Aug 2001          Vol 08 : Num 463

In this issue:

       the_dojang: Copy-rights
       the_dojang: <no subject>
       the_dojang: Copyright
       the_dojang: Re: The_Dojang-Digest V8 #462
       the_dojang: RE: Real Knife Stuff
       the_dojang: .
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From: "Bruce Sims" <bsims@mailserver.midwesthapkido.com>
Date: Sat,  4 Aug 2001 15:58:37 -0500
Subject: the_dojang: Copy-rights

"....Ahhhh!  Finally, the real reason for copyrighting, IMVHO.  Copyrights make
it more difficult for instructors to leave the organization and still maintain 
their school.  Songham folks, I don't mean this adversely, its just 
business...." 

I really think your folks are getting pretty far off track with this whole copyright thing. 

1.) A copyright applies from the moment a concept is organized, but can only be registered once it is put onto some medium. I can make-up stuff all day long in my mind and so can everyone else. I can also put those ideas down on paper and so can everyone else. My stuff is copyrighted when I put it down on paper and so is everyone elses. Now, if I want to have that copyright registered with the Library of Congress I can fill-out my FORM TX (literary works) or my FORM PA (performing arts) and send it in with a copy of what I have done and my $30US and now my idea is on file. 

2.) I can use copyrighted material any time I feel like it and most of us do. Think about the last time a song came on the radio and you sang along with it. What you can't do is use somebody elses song without acknowledging its origins or represent their song as your song. 

Now, lets go back to the Songham situation. 

If I study Songham TKD and learn their hyung, fine, theres' no problem. If I leave their organization and continue to practice their hyung, then likewise, there is no problem. If I leave their organization and continue to teach their hyung and give ample recognition that what I am providing is not mine but that of Songham TKD there is no problem here as long as I am a.) not representing this material as my own and b.) I accept that if what I am doing (teaching the Songham hyung) is turning a profit and they have every right to ask for compensation for using their material. 

I guess what I am reacting to is that in the US intellectual property rights is not something that gets enforced a lot in the martial arts field. Truth be told we tend to mix and match a lot of what we do because so much of our material has been mixed and matched for generations across a number of cultures. What I originally heard in this Net was that the Songham TKD had been developed from material pre-dating the Japanese influences of the Occupation, which suggests to me that this would be the equivalent of public domain. Now what I am hearing is that Songham TKD is a unique expression of TKD which was formulated and copyrighted relatively recently. In most cases people don't make a big thing about this in MA but apparently the Songham people are particularly protective of their material and its within their rights to do this. But lets' not make a Wagnerian Opera out of it. Is this kind of exclusivity really any different than somebody trying to lay claim to a grand-master, originator or director of some aspect of a Korean tradition so that the bucks tend to flow in their particular direction? 

BTW: You may want to pick-up a great little book THE COPYRIGHT HANDBOOK by Attorney Stephen Fishman. Chapter 10 section 2 identifies that works created on or after Jan 1, 1978 lasts for the life of the author plus 50 years. (However, works created before that date have a different duration and I hope some of you Attorney-types can help me out there.) Once the duration has lapsed the work goes to public domain and then anyone can use it and it can never be copyright protected again. Whatever benefits the Songham people may garner from their foresight in copyrighting their material does not last forever. 

Best Wishes, 
Bruce 

------------------------------

From: "Rudy Timmerman" <kwanjang@nkmaa.ca>
Date: Sat, 04 Aug 2001 06:31:45 -0400
Subject: the_dojang: <no subject>

Ken writes:
> How many of you martial arts experts or teachers have other
> hobbies or interests outside of your martial arts training ?

Hi Ken:
I enjoy woodworking, nature, arts (painting) , early Western history, and
traveling, but most of my time is spent at martial arts in some form.

> What percentage of your students who train under you consider martial arts
> training a full time endeavor ?

I would say that 90% or better find martial art training a hobby, character
training, or a fitness endeavor.  Few train more than three times per week.

> Does your balance in life allow you to impart lessons learned to students
> or others ?  Or are your lives solely revolved around your first love?

Speaking for myself.  I lead a somewhat unbalanced life (toward martial
arts) by choice, and nearly all my friends, activities etc. are somehow
connected with martial arts.

> can you separate your martial arts training from other aspects of your life ?

I probably could, but I really don't want to?

> If the latter, how do you recharge your batteries, get away from your love
> affair with the martial arts, then subsequently return with a renewed sense
> of training ?

Martial arts constantly recharges my batteries, and seeing a student achieve
something s/he thought impossible is enough to renew my energy.   Since
traveling is one of my hobbies, and the arts give me that opportunity,  I
always find a way to get in some visit to a historical site, museum, or
natural spot of great beauty.

> Have you given up other aspects of your life, ended relationships (personal or
> business) to focus solely on martial arts training and teaching ?

Does twice divorced count:)

> How many experts here actually were involved in
> bar room brawls, having 2 or 3 beefed up guys attack you

Before I was enlightened, I had a few altercations (well, quite a few).  The
two times I recall having a go at more than two people, I never knew what I
did in terms of technique -- it was over before I had a chance to think.
Although I was happy with the result, I realize it could have gone the other
way.  Luck was on my side both times, but I did manage to get a nice dimple
on my cheek courtesey of a broken bottle.

> Did you find that your Hyungs were pivotal and helpful in having you emerge
> from the situation unscathed ? If you did have those experiences, do you slant
> your curriculum to teach students how to defend themselves in the street

As I said, I never could remember what I did; however, hyung always were a
part of my training, and I believe in using this tool.  During an exhibition
bout with a Golden Gloves Champ (see story in early 70's BB magazine), I had
more time to think (because my life was not in peril). I lost the match, but
I learned a fair bit about what NOT to do in clinching.  This information
became part of my knowledge and therefore my teaching.

BTW, before anyone thinks this bout was an indication of which fighting art
is better, I did what I set out to do (put the boxer on his back at my
feet).  Despite the fact that it was a no holds barred fight, I did not
stomp on the man.  I felt no need to do this, as I had achieved my personal
goal and had no desire to hurt anyone for the sake of publicity.

> Thanks. Off to Asia for one week.

Have a great trip Ken.  Think about us poor folk sweating in the Dojang.
Sincerely, Rudy

------------------------------

From: "Mac" <D.McHenry@ev1.net>
Date: Sat, 4 Aug 2001 19:06:22 -0500
Subject: the_dojang: Copyright

<<Can anyone tell us if Chun Kuk Do has it's own forms or are they still
using
the MDK hyungs (they where in the 80's I believe)?  If Chun Kuk Do has it's
own forms are they copyright material?>>

Before they started calling it Chun Kuk Do, I know they had dropped all but
a couple of the most advanced MDK forms and called them UFAF forms (1-3 I
think).  I don't know for sure if they were copyrighted, but could have
been.

<<From the org name he either didn't sue GM Kim, Jae Joon or lost WMDKTSD.
Can
you confirm or refute that Mac?>>

Don't know if he was ever sued, but I believe had permission (or just kept
it) to use MDK.  I think he's about the only other organization to use MDK
in his name.  Seems funny, because he was kicked out of the MDK. {shrug}

Mac


------------------------------

From: Neal Konecky <dnkonecky@yahoo.com>
Date: Sat, 4 Aug 2001 19:27:22 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: the_dojang: Re: The_Dojang-Digest V8 #462

Ken,

First I enjoyed your choice of words.  I have practiced law for the past 15 years.  I
have practiced martial arts for the past 10 years.  (No, I do not consider myself to be
anywhere near expert).  I do not consider practicing law a hobby.  It is my livelihood,
not my life.  It is the way that I keep food on my table and a roof over my family's
head.  

Every couple of years we take a trip.  The last was to China, the one before was to
Poland.  During these trips, and occassionally during the year, I dust off my camera.  (I
have been a hobbyist photographer for over 30 years).  My main photographic pursuits
these days are photographing tests.

Most of our students are kids, so MA competes with swim meets, soccer, baseball, etc.  Of
the adults, most are hobbyists, with one very serious student who trains very hard, but
does not quite seem to get the martial aspects.

While MA is very important to me, my family is more important to me.  I consider myself
to be a serious hobbyist.  This is because I share my life with pesky little details like
work.  As a result, and so long as I want to stay married, my time on the mats is
limited.  (And will soon become even moreso).  However, MA is an integral part of my
life.  Whether this is how I define myself, don't know, never thought about it.  As to
how I recharge my batteries, this happens when the school closes fro vacation and I get
to work out with the other instructors, just us.

As am aside, to to the instructors, have you found that teaching has taken over your MA
life?  Do you ever "resent" teaching, feel that you took up the arts to practice, not to
teach?  How do you deal with those feelings?

Hope this helps.

Neal Konecky

=====
"Our government, conceived in freedom and purchased with blood, can be preserved only by constant vigilance"
William Jennings Bryan

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------------------------------

From: "Phil" <pbp16@mindspring.com>
Date: Sun, 5 Aug 2001 14:03:24 -0400
Subject: the_dojang: RE: Real Knife Stuff

<Joel S. Weissler wrote:

<That being said - the escalation of force because of reasonable
<fear of grievous bodily harm or death is a defense . . . and that means
<if charged that it is raised within the justice system.  Doing so is
<often expensive, and so time consuming it can devour a defendant's life
<to such an extent that a plea bargain admitting guilt to something you
<are not guilty of doing can sound good.

This is what happened to him. I kept up with the detailed events that
occurred during the 2 years and I even wrote down various meetings and pre
trial events in my appointment book as a future reference as to what one can
expect to happen. It is a NIGHTMARE. They beat you so badly that you are
willing to admit whatever just to have it stop.

Now I have a question for you, could you please define "grievous bodily harm"

Phil Peplinski

------------------------------

From: Ray Terry <raymail@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com>
Date: Sun, 05 Aug 2001 14:32:53 PDT
Subject: the_dojang: .


------------------------------

End of The_Dojang-Digest V8 #463
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