From: the_dojang-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com To: the_dojang-digest@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Subject: The_Dojang-Digest V8 #472 Reply-To: the_dojang@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Errors-To: the_dojang-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Precedence: The_Dojang-Digest Fri, 10 Aug 2001 Vol 08 : Num 472 In this issue: the_dojang: Taking back belts the_dojang: Teaching people how to fight the_dojang: RE: Teaching Fighting? the_dojang: interdojang competitions the_dojang: Re: The_Dojang-Digest V8 #471 BOUNCE the_dojang: Non-member submission from (fwd) the_dojang: Change of website address the_dojang: Curriculum Management... the_dojang: Re: learning to fight the_dojang: selling belts; fighting well the_dojang: . ========================================================================= The_Dojang, serving the Internet since June 1994. ~1000 members strong! Copyright 1994-2001: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource The premier internet discussion forum devoted to the Korean Martial Arts. Replying to this message will NOT unsubscribe you. To unsubscribe, send "unsubscribe the_dojang-digest" (no quotes) in the body (top line, left justified) of a "plain text" e-mail addressed to majordomo@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com. To send e-mail to this list use the_dojang@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com See the Korean Martial Arts (KMA) FAQ and the online search engine for back issues of The_Dojang at http://www.MartialArtsResource.com Pil Seung! ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "J. R. West" Date: Thu, 9 Aug 2001 17:00:54 -0500 Subject: the_dojang: Taking back belts It has been my practice for many years to pay for my 1st dan's black belt as a "gift". In actuality, it allows me to repossess it in the event of some sort of action that reflects poorly on the student, the school and eventually...me. During the time prior to 1st dan, my candidates must come into the outer office and recognize their own belt from the others hanging on the wall, and when asked what they are holding, the reply is "it is Mr. West's belt with my name on it". I have only had to reclaim one such belt when one of my 3rd dans got in trouble with the law about 10 years ago, and when I asked him to come clean with me so that I could use whatever influence I have to help him out, he denied all charges, only to plead guilty at his arraignment, making me look like a dolt. To this day, his monogrammed belt hangs on my "order of belts" display in the dojang, and the story is passed on. I have had a pair of students go up the street and open a short lived school in competition with me (which is why everyone signs a non-compete agreement now) and when asked if I was going to take their belts back, I said that part of their pain was to see my name on their belts every night. J. R. West www.hapkido.com ------------------------------ From: "Craig Stovall" Date: Thu, 09 Aug 2001 17:07:06 -0500 Subject: the_dojang: Teaching people how to fight This is a hot topic with, but I'll try and respond without ruffling too many peoples' feathers...or maybe not. Cheree writes, "Do you think it is really possible to teach a student to fight," Absolutely. I see it happen all of the time. Don't you? "or perhaps is it only possible to enhance an innate ability?" I've seen a lot of people with great talent...and I've seen a lot of people with little to no talent. Out of both groups, I've seen people learn to become fighters. The common denominator that is shared between those people that became fighters is this...the DESIRE to become a fighter. Nobody accidently becomes a brain surgeon. The same is true for those that take an interest in organized mayhem. "I understand (and have experienced) that repetition and technical awareness can improve one's ability to fight, but some people just seem to never really 'get it.'" Some people don't "get it" because their training environment is not conducive to producing fighters. No matter how hard they try...doing tai-chi in the park is not going to produce a fighter. I can say the same thing about a lot of the "croddy" studios I've seen...you're just not going to produce many fighters doing nothing but kata and one-steps. Others don't "get it" because they're focused on another goal...health, fitness, having fun, etc. This is fine...nothing wrong with that. "Is it possible that kinesthetic learners make better fighters?" I think ATHLETES make better fighters. By athletes, I refer to those that prepare for the physical and mental rigors of fighting by training athletically. Jigoro Kano figured this out over a hundred years ago...the students need kata (form/technique), randori (sparring), and shiai (competition). Put these three things together, and you will have a program that can produce a fighter. In my experience, the people that have the hardest time "getting it" are those that think what they do is "too deadly" to contest. So, in turn, their training has no aliveness...they spend endless hours repeating the same dead patterns. Simulating poking each others eyes in one-step "sparring", and wrist-locking their over-cooperative students/training partners during "attack drills". Meanwhile, their ever-expanding mid-sections are hanging over their 6th degree Black Belts...yeah, these are the folks that I'm scared of. Sorry for the rant. Learning to hurt other people (fight) is actually a pretty easy process, but I see people screw it up all of the time. Craig "Who's the baddest?!?!...SHO-NUFF!!!" Stovall _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp ------------------------------ From: hogwldfltr@cs.com Date: Thu, 09 Aug 2001 19:20:24 -0400 Subject: the_dojang: RE: Teaching Fighting? the_dojang-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com wrote: >From: Chereecharmello@aol.com >Date: Thu, 9 Aug 2001 12:19:14 EDT >Subject: the_dojang: Re: The_Dojang-Digest V8 #470 > >Here's a question to start a new thread: > >Do you think it is really possible to teach a student to fight, or perhaps is >it only possible to enhance an innate ability? > >I understand (and have experienced) that repetition and technical awareness >can improve one's ability to fight, but some people just seem to never really >'get it.' > >Is it possible that kinesthetic learners make better fighters? > >-Cheree Hello Cheree, This brings up a discussion we had during an Hapkido class at Jae Kim's Martial Arts here in Tucson. Master Kim asserted that what most students lack is a back ground in street fighting. He said that most of the balck belts would get beat by an experienced street fighter. On the other hand I know at least one of the students in the class who has had to use his TKD/HKD in real life encounters. One time two guys tried to rob him and a quick kick to one of the robbers balls provided him with adequate time to get away. A second time he was threatened with a beating because he is hispanic. A quick strike to the attackers throat also let him get away. I guess you may need to define fighting a bit better for good discussion on this one. Regards, Lee Fisk Tucson ------------------------------ From: "Christa Stevens" Date: Thu, 09 Aug 2001 21:06:37 -0500 Subject: the_dojang: interdojang competitions Illona The process I use in "holding off awards" pretty simple. When the students come into the dojang at the beginning of the competition, They fill out the required registration form etc, and when they turn it in to me I simply remind them that they won't find out their standing/placement until the end. So, if they want to know how they placed and receive their medal/participation ribbon they need to stay all the way to the end. I also do not allow any of the competitors to leave the main training area after they have competed. They all sit along the periphery and are expected to watch. If they must leave for a brief minute I expect them to bow to the competitors, judges and myself when they reenter the dojang. They know they may not reenter in the middle of a round. They must wait until the competitor has stepped out of the ring. After everyone has completed their material, the judges and I then tally up the scores and determine the "winners." So even we are unaware of who is in the lead until the end. Holding off the calculation of scores helps keep the judges neutral too because they are usually clueless as to who is in the lead until they calculate the scores at the end. I also make it clear to parents and family members who are not involved that they are under no obligation to stay all day. The awards ceremony is always at the same time. So I make sure they know when that is and then they are free to go or stay. This has worked quite well for me. I hope I answered your question. If you want even more details feel free to contact me privately. Christa PS: I have not had a student fail to stick around to get their ribbon yet! _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp ------------------------------ From: ABurrese@aol.com Date: Thu, 9 Aug 2001 22:33:23 EDT Subject: the_dojang: Re: The_Dojang-Digest V8 #471 << Do you think it is really possible to teach a student to fight, or perhaps is it only possible to enhance an innate ability? >> Some people will not be fighters, but you can teach a student to be prepared to survive, and there is a big difference there. Teach survival, and with that awareness and avoidance are your first and primary tools. Yours in Training, Alain http://members.aol.com/aburrese/ ------------------------------ From: Ray Terry Date: Thu, 09 Aug 2001 20:15:30 PDT Subject: BOUNCE the_dojang: Non-member submission from (fwd) Forwarded message: Subject: BOUNCE the_dojang: Non-member submission from From: William.Baldwin@ureach.com, MD-S Reply-To: Subject: iL-Bu Re: #448 In a message dated 7/31/01 9:56:17 AM Eastern Daylight Time, the_dojang-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com ( actually mark.lasich@alcoa.com) writes: << For example, in TangSooDo the first basic form is Kee-Cho Hyung Il-Bu yet the first Pyung-ahn form is Pyung-ahn Cho-Dan! >> I understand Il is "one", etc, but what is the "Bu" in il-bu? Please note that I am more than a week behind in digests. If this has already been answered, my apologies. ------------------------------ From: "Anthony or Clare Boyd" Date: Fri, 10 Aug 2001 21:04:46 +0900 Subject: the_dojang: Change of website address Hello all, For those of you with an interest in swordly things, I have relocated and updated my Haidong Gumdo website. The old address at fortune city will continue to exist for a short time but nothing will be updated or altered there. The new site is hosted by Stormpages. I have done a test of this service with my multimedia content over the past 5 months and am happy enough to move the whole site there. So, the new address is www.stormpages.com/haidonggumdo Thanks to all those who visited the old site in the past and who will do so in the future. Anthony Boyd ------------------------------ From: Brian Myers Date: Fri, 10 Aug 2001 07:29:17 -0500 Subject: the_dojang: Curriculum Management... To all in the DD: The following is an excerpt from the newly revised ATA Tournament Rules (71 Pages). This information is freely distributed by the ATA on their website http://www.ataonline.com/ PG. 15 Special Note #2: "Example: A Camo Belt student may perform any form from Songahm #1 to In Wha #2. It is possible they tested to Camo Belt by demonstratingthe White Belt material. Or, the student may have entered the Camo Belt level when the class was learning the Blue Belt material so he/she would be doing In Wha #2." Now that you have read that, a little explination of the ranks, forms, and material in the ATA. Belt Color - Form Name White - Songahm #1 Orange - Songahm #2 Yellow - Songahm #3 Camo - Songahm #4 Green - Songahm #5 Purple - In Wha #1 Blue - In Wha #1 Brown - Choong Jung #1 Red - Choong Jung #2 Each level has a new set of techniques, to be addd to the students knowledge base, and each form becomes longer and more difficult as you progress. Songahm #1 has just 18 moves and moves in a straight line, while Choong Jung #2 has 46 moves and describes a series of boxes on the floor. Having said all that, the old method of teaching used by the ATA was what one would call "progressive". As with most arts you started out wearing a white belt, learning the basics, and doing the most basic of the forms. As you learned and progressed, the new techniques became more complex, more potentially dangerous for you and your attacker/partner, and the forms became more intricate. It made good sense, first you learn to sit-up, then crawl, then stand, then walk, and finally run. Seems sort of natural and logical! Recently, within the last 9 months or so, a new push has been started by Headquarters. They are now pushing the "block" teaching method. which basically says the following. When a student begins they shall wear a white belt. However, they will learn, along with the rest of the school, whatever level material the school may be working on, as a mass group, at that time. This also applies for tournaments, as a student may or may not know the material that was once considered "belt level" material. This to me seems to indicate that the ATA has forgotten all it ever learned about how to instruct a student! How can I expect a student to learn to do a step-through-spin-side-kick when I haven't even shown them how to do a basic side kick?! The reasoning I have been given for this new method so far has seemed rather McDojang-ish. They say it is the only way to support a large school (30-50 students) with just a single instructor. My questions to the DD are: 1) Does the "Block" method make sense to you? 2) How can a "traditionalist" like myself reconcile it and make it work for the students? 3) How do you "grow" a school? 4) Does it seem wise to have more than 10 students to an instructor at any time during class? 5) Other thoughts/comments on the situation/idea? Yours in the Martial Spirit, Brian Myers ------------------------------ From: Donnla Nic Gearailt Date: Fri, 10 Aug 2001 13:36:24 +0100 Subject: the_dojang: Re: learning to fight >From: Chereecharmello@aol.com >Date: Thu, 9 Aug 2001 12:19:14 EDT >Subject: the_dojang: Re: The_Dojang-Digest V8 #470 > >Here's a question to start a new thread: > >Do you think it is really possible to teach a student to fight, or perhaps is > >it only possible to enhance an innate ability? > >I understand (and have experienced) that repetition and technical awareness >can improve one's ability to fight, but some people just seem to never really > >'get it.' > >Is it possible that kinesthetic learners make better fighters? > I think that to really get to grips with something you have to enjoy it, or be interested. For instance, I am soooo bad at DIY, yet quite good at handcrafts, sewing etc. Although one would expect similar skills to be employed for both activities, I like handcrafts, but hate doing any DIY. Maybe some students just don't like fighting.... Donnla. - ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Donnla Nic Gearailt Computer Laboratory, New Museums Site, Graduate Student Pembroke St., Cambridge CB2 3QG, U.K. tel: +44-1223-334619 http://www.cl.cam.ac.uk/~dbn20/ "An eyelash! How could you be so careless!" - Jude Law, Gattaca ------------------------------ From: "Burdick, Dakin Robert" Date: Fri, 10 Aug 2001 08:56:30 -0500 Subject: the_dojang: selling belts; fighting well On the matter of belts: How can anyone say they are not selling a belt? You buy it for about $5 (more if it is embroidered). If you charge a testing fee, or any fee for that matter, you are selling a belt, and probably a certificate along with it. When I kick people out (I do it too), they keep the belt and anything they have. What does it matter? While they were my students they earned them. You can't take away what they have learned, and that's the important stuff. I just try to be more careful on the front end with my screening, and hope things work out ok. Anyone ever seen "Searching for Bobby Fischer"? That's what all this reminds me of. Taking a belt just seems petty. On the matter of fighting: "Do you think it is really possible to teach a student to fight, or perhaps is it only possible to enhance an innate ability?" 1. Of course we can teach someone to fight, if that is what what we are teaching. No-one ever finishes learning, so we are never finished teaching. 2. You have to have the innate ability to act (brain, arms, legs, mouth are all very useful in this regard). "I understand (and have experienced) that repetition and technical awareness can improve one's ability to fight, but some people just seem to never really 'get it.'" And that's ok, right? Not everybody WANTS to learn to fight. If they want to, they will. "Is it possible that kinesthetic learners make better fighters?" If by "kinesthetic learners" you mean people with a lot of body awareness, then I would say they catch on quicker, which usually means their skill level is above other people of the same caliber. Therefore, they fight better. But attitude is the key. If you are willing to take a chunk out of someone no matter what they do to you, but you keep your nose out of other people's business, most people won't mess with you. And avoiding a fight is the most important part of learning to fight, isn't it? Yours in the arts, Dakin Burdick burdickd@indiana.edu ------------------------------ From: Ray Terry Date: Fri, 10 Aug 2001 7:37:39 PDT Subject: the_dojang: . ------------------------------ End of The_Dojang-Digest V8 #472 ******************************** It's a great day for Taekwondo! Support the USTU by joining today. US Taekwondo Union, 1 Olympic Plaza, Ste 104C, Colorado Spgs, CO 80909 719-578-4632 FAX 719-578-4642 ustutkd1@aol.com http://www.ustu.org To unsubscribe from the_dojang-digest send the command: unsubscribe the_dojang-digest -or- unsubscribe the_dojang-digest your.old@address in the BODY (top line, left justified) of a "plain text" e-mail addressed to majordomo@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com. Old digest issues are available via ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com. Copyright 1994-2001: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource Standard disclaimers apply.