From: the_dojang-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com To: the_dojang-digest@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Subject: The_Dojang-Digest V8 #475 Reply-To: the_dojang@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Errors-To: the_dojang-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Precedence: The_Dojang-Digest Sat, 11 Aug 2001 Vol 08 : Num 475 In this issue: the_dojang: Branded the_dojang: Belt the_dojang: Belts the_dojang: Belt Loaning the_dojang: Re: The nature of the Arts the_dojang: Belts and non-compete agreements the_dojang: Re: The_Dojang-Digest V8 #474 the_dojang: guns -n- sabers the_dojang: . ========================================================================= The_Dojang, serving the Internet since June 1994. ~1000 members strong! Copyright 1994-2001: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource The premier internet discussion forum devoted to the Korean Martial Arts. Replying to this message will NOT unsubscribe you. To unsubscribe, send "unsubscribe the_dojang-digest" (no quotes) in the body (top line, left justified) of a "plain text" e-mail addressed to majordomo@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com. To send e-mail to this list use the_dojang@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com See the Korean Martial Arts (KMA) FAQ and the online search engine for back issues of The_Dojang at http://www.MartialArtsResource.com Pil Seung! ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Mac" Date: Fri, 10 Aug 2001 22:19:23 -0500 Subject: the_dojang: Branded If I remember that show too, does that show how old I am? <> Hummm... You make an excellent analogy about wearing belts and performance. But after 15 years as a "white belt", sounds like you have a problem with your performance and just can't seem to let go of it.... so who here has a hang up about belts?? ;-) Loved your post - a new classic! Mac "who worked out tonight not even wearing my white belt" McHenry (wore dobak pants and a Harley t-shirt ) ------------------------------ From: "Rudy Timmerman" Date: Fri, 10 Aug 2001 13:45:55 -0400 Subject: the_dojang: Belt Craig writes: > If we would set performance as the north star for which to shoot, I think we'd > find ourselves taking back fewer of these belts. Hi Craig: In the case where I took back something that had my father's good name on it, the young lad has plenty of ability. In fact, he is one of the most skillful Black Belts I had (have, he may be back). If I seem a little picky on my training requirements, it is because I teach with a strong desire to instill more than just performance. I try to live up to the things I learned from my parents, add what I learned from others, and do what I think is best given the information I have. As I learn more, my ideals may change. If they do, it is because I believe in them. I strongly feel that each of my students must also follow the path that is comfortable for him or her; however, I will NEVER lose sight of what it is that I want to teach. If a student does not like what I teach, there are other schools out there. They can go there with my most sincere blessings (not my belt). Hopefully, I will continue to offer enough skill and philosophy to attract students. When the time comes that I do not, I will hang up my belt. I will NOT give up my principles and goals to simply attract (or keep) students. BTW, I am quite surprised by the number of people who think that I have no right to limit those who wear my (school's) name to my players. Players of any other sport (or employees of any corporation), who leave the team, never take the name of the team they played for when they depart for whatever reason. I can't think of a case where we would even question this. I believe folks on the list are confused by my motives. My only motive is to limit the wearing of my (school's) name to students who willingly represent the philosophy of that school -- especially Black Belts. I do not brow beat them into believing what I teach, and neither do I take away their rank. They earned that. Patrick writes: > Forget the belts, forget the gis; focus on the people. If you promote a > person to BB that turns out to be rotten - reevaluate yourself, not their > clothing. Hello Patrick: I constantly reevaluate myself. It is one of the things martial arts has taught me. If you mean that the blame for a rotten apple lies with me, I respectfully decline to accept that. Even a rotten apple was once a good piece of fruit, and the tree that bore it cannot be blamed for the way it turned out. Neither can I blame anyone for not keeping a rotten apple. Sincerely, Rudy ------------------------------ From: "Moja Kwan Tang Soo Do" Date: Sat, 11 Aug 2001 01:55:51 -0400 Subject: the_dojang: Belts Dear Craig, I'm on the fence too. For six years I wore a plain black belt with no stripes. It actually got a little gray and worn around the knot :-) But for gup exams and functions by my NGB I wore "their spec." monagram belt and my "NGB event only" top complete with "instructor" patch and international championship patches.... When I tested for Master Instructor in the USKMAF I parted from "traditional" MDKTSD and avoided the central red stripe in my belt and went with a subtle monagram it just says Tang Soo Do in Han Ja on the right end and Richards (phonetic) in Hangul on the left end. Moja Kwan Uniforms are Black Pants (Earth) and White Tops (Air) with no patches.... Sometime about three years from now I may be in a position to award my first Cho Dan Belt. Being that simple and not specifically related to our school, I would see no need to repo it. Of course there could be a reason to publicly revoke a students membership in our kwan but I pray that will never happen. Train with Jung Do in your heart The rest is commentary, Charles Richards Moo Do Jae Ja _________________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com ------------------------------ From: "Dana Vaillancourt" Date: Sat, 11 Aug 2001 14:09:22 Subject: the_dojang: Belt Loaning While I respect J.R. & Rudy's philosophy of the "loaning" of the black belt, I personally feel it is wrong. While the instructor teaches the student, it is the student that should put in the sweat, blood, time, etc. to learn, grow and become a black belt. As an instructor, one hopefully examines this individual over time to hope that he/she becomes the kind of person to represent you in the way you'd prefer, but people do change. The belt is their's, a mere representation of the knowledge they possess. You can take the belt, but they are still a black belt [at least in technical knowledge] and met your requirements to get there at some point. It is your choice, however, and rightly so, to turn them out of your school if they no longer meet with your standards and refuse to change/improve. Hopefully their next instructor will call for a reference! Different opinion. Dana _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp ------------------------------ From: "Bruce Sims" Date: Sat, 11 Aug 2001 09:54:10 -0500 Subject: the_dojang: Re: The nature of the Arts Dear Folks: I wanted to take a moment and express my distaste for the constant equivalence of martial arts to sports in the range of discussions that we have here. The most current discussion regarding belts and ranks is just one more in a line of dialogues in which an individual seeks to take an arguement to the absurd by comparing MA to sports. I think the confusion comes in when people take MA and identify commercial, or sport, or combative applications and then define the entire MA experience according to that particular application. Certainly, MA has come to have commercial applications. Certainly MA has come to have sport applications. However, defining the entire nature of the MA by the viewpoint of a sub-class of that experience is inaccurate and I think degrades the discussion. MA remains a life-style changing and character-developing pursuit whose ramifications touch not just the individual, but their class, instructor and community. I don't have a problem with people working hard to abdicate responsibility for their place in the arts, and I don't have a problem if they wish to make the arts something less for themselves. I do have problem when people elect to trivialize the arts and then represent that as the actual nature of the arts. If one elects to assume the mantle of praticing the MA with whatever regard it carries in the community, I believe that person needs to be mature enough to accept loss of status, ostracism, alienation and whtever other consequence follows when they make a bad decision and conduct themselves in a manner that dishonors their position in the MA community. Best Wishes, Bruce ------------------------------ From: "J. R. West" Date: Sat, 11 Aug 2001 10:37:00 -0500 Subject: the_dojang: Belts and non-compete agreements > > During the time prior to 1st dan, > > my candidates must come > > into the outer office and recognize their own belt > > from the others hanging > > on the wall, and when asked what they are holding, > > the reply is "it is Mr. > > West's belt with my name on it". > Please don't take this personally, and I understand > that this is a respect issue, but doesn't this seem a > bit tacky? They did earn the belt, after all. Actually, they earned the rank, but the belt has the name of the school on it as well as their name, and although they can continue to wear the belt forever, they must adhere to certain rules. I would not want a black belt student teaching in a manner other than what is represntative of my school and me, but wearing an insignia of my school and me. It was mentioned that a students actions away from the school may not reflect on the school owner or the school itself, but this is not the case. The student that I mentioned in an earlier post was convicted of "gratification of lust", which is MS legal talk for child molesting. How long would it take for word to spread around of a "child molester" that hung around a martial arts school that taught children?....NOT LONG. In a seperate but parallel case, a local black belt was convicted of statutory rape (consensual sex with a minor) while employed as an instructor at a TKD school, and sentenced to 15 years in prison. The school went from busy to a ghost town in a matter of DAYS as soon as it hit the papers ("he was employed at........"). As I have told my students with their own schools on many occasions, "you are always only ONE technique away from having your doors closed" and I would like to add " you are also always one foolish person away from having your doors closed". > > I have had a pair of students > > go up the street and > > open a short lived school in competition with me > > (which is why everyone > > signs a non-compete agreement now) > What is your reasoning behind such an agreement? My reasoning is this...it's hard enough to operate a full time school without having to create your own competeition. If a student reaches a level that would allow him to have his own class, or school, I would be honored to stand behind them and assist them in every way, which has happened on many occasions, but to deliberately open a "business" without consulting me, on the same street, in the same small town, using MY name as an introduction to the person leasing them the space, using a list of current and past students that was taken from MY computer to contact them and advise them that there was an alternative, is, if nothing else, a very poor way to open a school, and at the very most, a violation of a law in Mississippi called "interference with a business contract", and in my mind, nothing more than an attempt to take advantage of my location, name and student base. My non-compete agreement states that a student may not teach a class or open a school within a specified distance from my school for a specific period of time following their last class at my school, without my written permission. We always assume that everyone will act responsibly and treat us with the same caring and respect that we treated them, behave in a rational manner, and be up front in their dealings with us and with others, but when you are open to the public, anything can (and will) happen, in spite of your best efforts to the contrary......J. R. West www.hapkido.com ------------------------------ From: Dave Weller Date: Sat, 11 Aug 2001 11:26:13 -0500 Subject: the_dojang: Re: The_Dojang-Digest V8 #474 Mr. "blood on the pen" Stovall wrote: >From: "Craig Stovall" >Date: Fri, 10 Aug 2001 15:59:29 -0500 >Subject: the_dojang: Branded > >"BRANDED!!!...scorned as the one who ran, what do you do when you're >BRANDED, and you know you're a man." > I loved that show, specially when Chuck would spin that gnarly rifle around to chamber a round ..... whoa! > >Well, was I too subtle? Now before people go off of the deep end...my >analogy was NOT about AGE...it was about RANK. Our man Jim was allowed to >hang around and lord over the game NOT because of his ability, NOT because >of his coaching, and NOT because of his ability to perform. Jim was able to >play the part of lord, master, and keeper because of the STATUS that he held >within the ranks. In the "real" world that you imply is better, these under-educated steroid enhanced giants sit in the press box and pontificate about the theory and practice of their game. Making comments that are supposed to make them sound like experts (masters if you will). They are allowed to hang out in the press box and give "color commentary" not because of their deep knowledge of the game, but simply because they played and gained some fame. I fail to see the difference. You are right about one thing, belt rank is unimportant. Skill, and the ability to pass on what you know ARE important. Sometimes those with many hash marks on their belts are exactly what you would expect: patient, humble experts in their art who care little about the color of their belt or the number of patches on their uniform. They love their art, they love their students and they love to pass on what they know without a holier than thou attitude. You have obviuosly run into quite a few who fall into the "other" camp. Dave "waiting for godot" Weller Perpetual student ------------------------------ From: Ray Terry Date: Sat, 11 Aug 2001 10:24:45 PDT Subject: the_dojang: guns -n- sabers > >"BRANDED!!!...scorned as the one who ran, what do you do when you're > >BRANDED, and you know you're a man." > > I loved that show, specially when Chuck would spin that gnarly rifle around > to chamber a round ..... whoa! I think that was from The Rifleman. He was Lucas McCain, as I recall. In Branded his 'prop' was his broken calvary saber used as a fighting dagger. Ray Terry raymail@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com ------------------------------ From: Ray Terry Date: Sat, 11 Aug 2001 10:27:16 PDT Subject: the_dojang: . ------------------------------ End of The_Dojang-Digest V8 #475 ******************************** It's a great day for Taekwondo! Support the USTU by joining today. US Taekwondo Union, 1 Olympic Plaza, Ste 104C, Colorado Spgs, CO 80909 719-578-4632 FAX 719-578-4642 ustutkd1@aol.com http://www.ustu.org To unsubscribe from the_dojang-digest send the command: unsubscribe the_dojang-digest -or- unsubscribe the_dojang-digest your.old@address in the BODY (top line, left justified) of a "plain text" e-mail addressed to majordomo@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com. Old digest issues are available via ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com. Copyright 1994-2001: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource Standard disclaimers apply.