From: the_dojang-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com To: the_dojang-digest@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Subject: The_Dojang-Digest V8 #478 Reply-To: the_dojang@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Errors-To: the_dojang-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Precedence: The_Dojang-Digest Mon, 13 Aug 2001 Vol 08 : Num 478 In this issue: the_dojang: Re: try #2 for Carsten (Hwarang Do videos) the_dojang: RE: The_Dojang-Digest V8 #473 the_dojang: Re: The_Dojang-Digest V8 #477 the_dojang: Perfect timing! the_dojang: RE: The_Dojang-Digest V8 #474 Re: the_dojang: Re: try #2 for Carsten (Hwarang Do videos) the_dojang: Sport TKD calendar the_dojang: . ========================================================================= The_Dojang, serving the Internet since June 1994. ~1000 members strong! Copyright 1994-2001: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource The premier internet discussion forum devoted to the Korean Martial Arts. Replying to this message will NOT unsubscribe you. To unsubscribe, send "unsubscribe the_dojang-digest" (no quotes) in the body (top line, left justified) of a "plain text" e-mail addressed to majordomo@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com. To send e-mail to this list use the_dojang@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com See the Korean Martial Arts (KMA) FAQ and the online search engine for back issues of The_Dojang at http://www.MartialArtsResource.com Pil Seung! ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Carsten Jorgensen" Date: Mon, 13 Aug 2001 22:48:18 +0800 Subject: the_dojang: Re: try #2 for Carsten (Hwarang Do videos) >Try #2... Busy - busy - busy... and Bruce's flood of words are just crushing me - and keeps crashing my translation program ;-) I'll try to get my replies to all the other posts out tomorrow, or at least the day after. Me: > the Hwarang Do videos should be out and people can see for themselves if it's the same thing if they care. < Ray: >> Great! Sounds like an excellent challenge. But (I just checked out www.hwarangdo.com) 23 videos at $50 a each. Lets see, 23 times 5 times 10 is !#$!?! :) << I think there's a discount if you buy more at a time. It should be the same prices as Panther Video. (BTW, did you see the B&W Hwarang Do footage at PantherVideo.com?) If you have a good Internet connection the video quality is excellent, but it's still ok on a slower connection. >> Can you narrow it down just a wee bit? Recommend two or three videos in the set where you think I'll see a significant difference in physical technique between GM Lee's HwaRangDo and Hapkido and I'll spend my $$ in hopes of finally settling this (at least in my mind). << I've only seen the first version of some of the videos (Panther Video (the company) have been sold, so the videos were delayed), mine should be in the mail though. But I remember that the 'defence against punching' (#15) was a very nice introduction - shows a little bit of everything. But pretty much any of them should do, even the "basic" tapes. Carsten Jorgensen Copenhagen, Denmark hwarangdo@email.com _______________________________________________ Talk More, Pay Less with Net2Phone Direct(R), up to 1500 minutes free! http://www.net2phone.com/cgi-bin/link.cgi?143 ------------------------------ From: "Dunn, Danny J RASA" Date: Mon, 13 Aug 2001 10:50:02 -0500 Subject: the_dojang: RE: The_Dojang-Digest V8 #473 Charles, I don't have CS Kim's book, but I think GM Shin's book does a better job of laying out and explaning hyungs than KU Lee's book. Of course Lee's book has some forms not in GM Shin's book. The histories and alternatives for the names are very interesting to me. GM Shin generally does not like to associate animals or their names with hyungs. Unfortunately Vol. IV only addresses through Kong Sang Koon. I still hope for a Vol. that will contain all the rest of the advanced hyung, but GM Shin's next book will deal with Instruction. TANG SOO!!!! Danny Dunn <<<<<<<<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>>> ------------------------------ From: "Bruce Sims" Date: Mon, 13 Aug 2001 10:28:30 -0500 Subject: the_dojang: Re: The_Dojang-Digest V8 #477 Dear Folks: I was thinking as I read Mr. Stovalls’ comments regarding sports and martial arts that I had heard much of this material many times before. I was left wondering, then, why I was feeling such disappointment. It finally came to me that it was not the material that Mr. Stovall presented but the protocol I can easily predict that will follow. It won’t be the usual flurry of “define this/define that” exchanges, or the endless patterings concerning which activity has greater intrinsic worth that will be noisome. It won’t even be Rays’ ultimate direction to curtail discussion and move on to other things. What will really gall the crap out of me is what will remain unsaid. The discussion of sporting applications in martial arts, share something with ranking, teaching, research, reading and a host of other discussions we have had on this Net. The thing that they share is what we DON’T say about the issues. For instance, I noticed that in discussing the ability of the teacher to reclaim a belt/rank from an errant student words such as “accountability”, “responsibility” and “commitment” were conspicuous in their absence, apparently replaced by “property rights.” . When we discuss sporting applications of martial arts, “character development,” “cooperation” and “community focus” get pushed to the back by efficacy, pragmatism and competition. When we discuss martial heritage, tradition, contributions/innovation and research are routinely eclipsed by personalities, lineage and associations. When we discussed certification, much was made of protection of individuals rights and “Big Brother”, while very little was said about accountability & competence. Gary Zukav (SEAT OF THE SOUL; DANCING WU LI MASTERS) takes time to identify two categories of people as either “5 sensory” or “multi-sensory” individuals. The former is pre-occupied with assessing the world only in terms of what information can be taken in by the basic five senses. The multi-sensory individual assesses the world in terms of knowing that the sum of the parts produces something greater than merely that sum. I happen to believe that the martial arts whole is greater than the sum of its parts. This is, indeed much harder to write about, and speak about but I do not believe that this difficulty need stop us from trying. I will go so far as to say that to continue to reduce MA to only what we see and do and ignore the more subtle and sublime aspects of the arts insults the trust previous generations placed in us to continue our traditions. I usually re-read posts a few times to make sure that I am picking up on not only the content but what spirit can be gleaned through this venue. I think I am accurate in saying that I hear in Mr. Stovall’s comments the same sort of superficiality that I have heard Mr. Nabor and Patrick make for GM Ji, Carsten makes for GM Lee and HWARANGDO, and Dana made for ranks/belts. I think the concept that MA encompasses much more than the shallow trappings that have been ascribed to them is something to which we may want to give more credence. Best Wishes, Bruce ------------------------------ From: "Craig Stovall" Date: Mon, 13 Aug 2001 11:16:33 -0500 Subject: the_dojang: Perfect timing! Just gotta say that I loved reading the letter from Mr. Holloway. Not only did my stomach turn sufficiently enough so that I'll have to skip lunch (and thus help me nail those 5 pounds I'm working on), but it also provided some more fodder for my cannon. First of all, I'm not currently affiliated with the USTU, ITF, WTF, ATA or any other large-scale organization/National Governing Body, and couldn't care less about how those people tend to their knitting (although the copyright thing still kills my soul). Second, it's not my intention to say that the USTU Executive Committee is corrupt. I'm quite certain that there's another side to this particular story, and I've only seen one side. However, Holloway's complaint rings with familiarity. I am quite certain that there are countless lower ranked BB's within that organization that are more qualified and deserving to attend that workshop than many of the 8th and 9th degree fatcats that will end up going. Just another example of the ruling elite using privelege and rank to hog the feed trough, and forcing the "smaller" players to roll over and feed on the hind....errr, you get the picture without me saying it. Yep, I can just see how the committe came to that decision. "Well, this is just a logistical nightmare so we're gonna line up and go by rank. After all, that's the martial arts way...and don't question my decision because I outrank you". Of course, the lower ranks just have to stiffen their lips and take it, or else risk losing their political footing within the heirarchy...or even worse. How do you say, "Don't let the door knob hit ya..." in Korean? Now, to piggyback off of a comment from my last post...there is nothing INHERENTLY wrong with ranks, chains of command, political heirarchies, Grand Poobahs, and all the other totems and trappings that human beings just can't seem to live without. I don't want people to think that I'm some sort of erstwhile Abbie Hoffman, here. All of these things CAN be good, but more often than not (and here I'm specifically addressing their existance within MA) they are SYMPTOMS of systems that have strayed away from the very goals and ideals that they purport to uphold. In this case, it looks like rank was used to cop out on the somewhat difficult decision as to who REALLY deserves to go, and enabled the use of a an easily verified (albeit subjective) standard. In this case...rank. Gee...rank was used to cop out on the decision...and THEN used as the measuring stick to qualify attendees. OHHHHHH...NOW I GET IT!!! This belt system thing is actually pretty useful...how much I gotta shell out for that 9th dan?;) And to be perfectly honest with you...I kinda look crossways at an organization that puts SPECIFIC competitive goals within it's mission statement...in this case, "and to win gold medals in the Olympic Games". I am a proponent of performance enhancement, and I support the use of competitive concepts within the training environment (going back to Kano, et al) as well as sporting events as TOOLS to gauge, monitor, and improve said performance. Keep your eye on performance, and your biggest problem will be lack of space in the trophy case. I dunno know about approaching it from the backend. Then again my trophy case still has plenty of holding capacity...so I will shut my humble pie hole. Craig "Any organization that would hold me back or shut me up...would be providing a much needed public service" Stovall _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp ------------------------------ From: "Luc T. Nguyen" Date: Mon, 13 Aug 2001 12:44:37 -0400 Subject: the_dojang: RE: The_Dojang-Digest V8 #474 > > Some of our worst criminals graduated from respected Universities. I'm sure > these places of learning wish (just like we do) that they had > never set eyes on these folks, but that's life. > The belt or the University diploma only means that the person did earn it at one time. There is no guarantee that this person still perform at the same level, or behave the same way, etc. Universities do not take back the diploma if one of their graduates did something bad. They will kick the students out of the school but cannot take back what they have earned. Even a bad employee who got fired from a corporation can always go to work somewhere else or open his own company claiming that he has worked at the other corporation before and hangs on their walls any or all awards that he got from there before he got fired. Does the student got to keep the belt monogrammed with the school name if he/she simply quit school, or move away? For a loaned belt, should it be returned too? What if a student left school 5 years ago and now is doing something bad, do we have the time to keep track of him and demand the belt back? Taking back the belt does not change the fact that the student did train at the school and did earn his rank there (or even teach there). If you worry about "word spreading out" about something bad one of your student did, then IMHO taking back the belt would not solve that at all. Luc Nguyen ------------------------------ From: Ray Terry Date: Mon, 13 Aug 2001 11:23:53 PDT Subject: Re: the_dojang: Re: try #2 for Carsten (Hwarang Do videos) > I've only seen the first version of some of the videos (Panther Video (the > company) have been sold, so the videos were delayed), mine should be in > the mail though. But I remember that the 'defence against punching' (#15) > was a very nice introduction - shows a little bit of everything. > But pretty much any of them should do, even the "basic" tapes. Great. I'll check out #15. Thanks. Ray Terry raymail@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com ------------------------------ From: Ray Terry Date: Mon, 13 Aug 2001 14:51:25 PDT Subject: the_dojang: Sport TKD calendar The_Dojang's calendar of Sport Taekwondo Events August 13, 2001 http://www.martialartsresource.com Dates and locations subject to change. 2001 8th PATU Jr/Sr Open Aug 17-19 Montreal, Canada KTC Open Aug 18 Santa Clara, California Flight of the Eagle TKD Aug 18 Loveland, Ohio 1st El-Hassan International Aug 23-25 Amman, Jordan AAU TKD Gold Medal Training Camp Aug 23-26 Orlando, Florida Ismet Iraz Tourny Aug 31-Sept 2 Izmir, Turkey 6th African TKD Champs Sept 7-9 Dakar, Senegal 14th Bolivarianos Games Sept 7-14 Ambato, Eucador 21st Southeast Asian Games Sept 8-11 Kuala Lumpur, Malaysia 1st PATU Jr. Champs Sept 20-22 Vina del Mar, Chile 9th California Open Sept 21-22 Anaheim, California Muhammad Ali Jinnah ITF Sept 21-23 Lahore, Pakistan Oxford Junior Invitational Sept 22 Oxford, Ohio EuroCup 2001 Sept 22-23 Helsinki, Finland Austrailian University Games Sept 23-28 Sydney, Austrailia WTF General Assembly & Executive Sept Council meeting Cheju City, Korea Gold Cup 2001 Oct 6 Cincinnati, Ohio 15th US Martial Arts Champs Oct 6 Youngstown, Ohio European Technical Champs Oct 6-7 Garmisch-Partenkirchen, Germany International TKD Brussels Oct 13-14 Brussels, Belgium Captain's Cup Challenge Oct 20 College Park, Maryland 21st Fort Worth TKD Champs Oct 20-21 Fort Worth, Texas 26th National Collegiate Oct 26-27 Austin, Texas Campeonato de Espana Oct 27-28 Madrid, Spain Austrailian Capitol Open Oct 27 Canberra, Austrailia PATU Sr. Training Camp Oct 28-Nov 2 Cheju City, Korea 15th World TKD Champs & 8th Women's World TKD Champs Nov 1-7 Cheju City, Korea AAU TKD US National Champs Nov 1-4 Orlando, Florida ITF TKD Impact Open Nov 10-11 West Sussex, England Toulouse Open Nov 17-18 Toulouse, France Victorian Seniors Nov 25 Melbourne, Austrailia 7th Central American Games Nov 30-Dec 3 Guatemala City, Guatemala Victorian Juniors Dec 2 Melbourne, Austrailia International Boekooltrofee Dec 8 Oldenzaal, Netherlands 2002 US Open TKD Champs Feb 18-24 Orlando, Florida Dutch Open March 11-12 Eindhoven, Netherlands ITF Black Eagle International March 16-17 Tampere, Finland 15th Asian TKD Champ April 4 Amman, Jordan 7th South American Games April 4-14 Cordoba, Argentina EuroCup for teams May Spain 14th European Senior TKD Champs May 2-5 Ankara, Turkey USTU National TKD Champs May 22-26 Detroit, Michigan 7th World Univ TKD Champs June 11-14 Berkeley, California USTU Junior Olympic TKD June 30-July 5 Minneapolis, Minnesota 14th Asian Games Sept 29-Oct 4 Pusan, Korea 19th Central American & Caribbean Nov San Salvador, El Salvador 13th Pan American TKD Champ Nov Ecuador 2003 11th Pan Arab Games Algeria 8th All Africa Games Abuja, Nigeria European Junior TKD Champs May Athens, Greece 14th Pan American Games Santo Domingo, Dominican Rep 3rd World Military Games Aug USA 22nd World University Games Aug Taegu, Korea 22nd Southeast Asian Games Oct HoChiMinh City, Vietnam 2004 European Senior TKD Champs May 4-9 Lillehammer, Norway Olympic Games Aug 15 Athens, Greece Ray Terry ------------------------------ From: Ray Terry Date: Mon, 13 Aug 2001 14:53:21 PDT Subject: the_dojang: . ------------------------------ End of The_Dojang-Digest V8 #478 ******************************** It's a great day for Taekwondo! Support the USTU by joining today. US Taekwondo Union, 1 Olympic Plaza, Ste 104C, Colorado Spgs, CO 80909 719-578-4632 FAX 719-578-4642 ustutkd1@aol.com http://www.ustu.org To unsubscribe from the_dojang-digest send the command: unsubscribe the_dojang-digest -or- unsubscribe the_dojang-digest your.old@address in the BODY (top line, left justified) of a "plain text" e-mail addressed to majordomo@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com. Old digest issues are available via ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com. Copyright 1994-2001: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource Standard disclaimers apply.