From: the_dojang-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com To: the_dojang-digest@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Subject: The_Dojang-Digest V8 #479 Reply-To: the_dojang@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Errors-To: the_dojang-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Precedence: The_Dojang-Digest Mon, 13 Aug 2001 Vol 08 : Num 479 In this issue: the_dojang: taking the belt back the_dojang: rank the_dojang: Captain's Cup Challenge the_dojang: At the end of Bruce's shotgun the_dojang: Again...missed the point. the_dojang: Cracks in the training the_dojang: . ========================================================================= The_Dojang, serving the Internet since June 1994. ~1000 members strong! Copyright 1994-2001: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource The premier internet discussion forum devoted to the Korean Martial Arts. Replying to this message will NOT unsubscribe you. To unsubscribe, send "unsubscribe the_dojang-digest" (no quotes) in the body (top line, left justified) of a "plain text" e-mail addressed to majordomo@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com. To send e-mail to this list use the_dojang@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com See the Korean Martial Arts (KMA) FAQ and the online search engine for back issues of The_Dojang at http://www.MartialArtsResource.com Pil Seung! ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: jerseyj Date: Mon, 13 Aug 2001 17:42:58 -0400 (EDT) Subject: the_dojang: taking the belt back Frankly, I find the idea of taking the belt back an absurdist notion (note, I'm NOT saying anyone who proposes this is absurd, but the concept is absurd!) There are so so many variations...some of which I'm sure have been mentioned already... like the person who gets their black belt at age 25 and robs a bank at age 45, and mentions their MA background....and it gets publicized. The fact that someone wears a schools belt and then does something "bad" does NOT in any way mean that person is either representative of that school or is supported in his/her "bad" efforts by that school. Also, what if your standards change ??!!! So, whatever they are doing is fine by today's standards but not by tomorrow's or yesterdays.... I DO like the idea of the university analogy. While they are in your school, certainly one can keep a student from moving on or getting a belt or achieving rank if it is not apropriate for them to do so...but once they do earn whatever rank they have earned....well...they earned it, and would be quite truthful in saying so .... blech....not sure why I bothered with this.... Jerry +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ "Without continual growth and progress, such words as improvement, achievement and success have no meaning." - Benjamin Franklin +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ ------------------------------ From: "Master Frank Clay" Date: Mon, 13 Aug 2001 17:56:48 -0400 Subject: the_dojang: rank I do not think going to a system where minimal belts are used will help instill anything in our students. People are people and those people are changing daily. I personally still use the MDK rank system of white, yellow, orange, green, red, black. Yellow and Orange were supposed to be "new" additions. The biggest complaint I hear is that people do not feel they have progressed enough. I personally believe that people have lost sight of what the ranking system is supposed to be, and rather, use it now, to stoke their egos. When I was coming up, if my instructor gave me an extra chore or responsibility, it was an honor. Lately, I have seen that that is not the case. I think if we as instructors really want to see honor come back into martial arts, then we need to evaluate what kind of examples we are setting... and then look at the individuals home setting, and maybe give some parents a healthy dose of push ups (lol). There is no way that in a few short hours coupled over a time period, that I can correct the ills that bad parenting have put in place over the course years, and years. Too bad their isn't a belt system for parenting. ------------------------------ From: Ray Terry Date: Mon, 13 Aug 2001 15:33:05 PDT Subject: the_dojang: Captain's Cup Challenge Captain's Cup Challenge XI October 20, 2001 Sponsored by Gentle East Taekwondo Hosted by Gentle East & University of Maryland Taekwondo Club Events: Forms (Creative & Traditional), Breaking, Sparring (USTU rules), Team Competition Location: University of Maryland, College Park, Reckord Armory Building For more information contact: Gentle East Taekwondo 8749 Flower Ave. Silver Spring, MD 20901 301-585-2272 FAX = 202-537-1318 captcup10@aol.com Ray Terry raymail@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com ------------------------------ From: "Dana Vaillancourt" Date: Mon, 13 Aug 2001 22:06:21 Subject: the_dojang: At the end of Bruce's shotgun Bruce. I much enjoy your waxing eloquent on many martial topics and your never-ending quest to find the good in man, the meaning of it all, as well as get your fingers around the basic tenants of man/woman's martial and moral spirit. A worthy goal. Your shotgun approach to putting down other shallow posters like myself [or is that "short" posts or opinions?] is admirable in the broader context to get us to reflect back upon important issues and spend even greater time on the internet to expound our positions versus pounding upon the trees in our back yard with ugly knuckles. But, alas, even your often good-intentioned and verbose postings fail to catch the individualness of the martial feeling we each share. However, since many of us keep our postings short and somewhat to the point [we are trying to make]....we fall short. This does not mean we do not share a similar "ideal," but just feel it is unnecessary to reiterate said ideals with every post. That should not discourage you for going for it though!! Regarding belts....My opinion is simple. If you earn a belt, it is yours. No more, no less. The belt does not represent your knowledge nor your morals. In a perfect world, black belts would be champions of freedom and justice, but in the real world, people fall short of perfection. There is no sense in the power game to take their belt [unless your name is on it], for good or ill, since the belt does not mean diddly-squat anyways. Accountability? Show them the highway, but let them keep their pants up! Shoot, now I'm four hyungs behind............... Respectfully, Dana Bruce wrote: This is, indeed much harder to write about, and speak about but I do not believe that this difficulty need stop us from trying. I will go so far as to say that to continue to reduce MA to only what we see and do and ignore the more subtle and sublime aspects of the arts insults the trust previous generations placed in us to continue our traditions. I usually re-read posts a few times to make sure that I am picking up on not only the content but what spirit can be gleaned through this venue. I think I am accurate in saying that I hear in Mr. Stovall’s comments the same sort of superficiality that I have heard Mr. Nabor and Patrick make for GM Ji, Carsten makes for GM Lee and HWARANGDO, and Dana made for ranks/belts. I think the concept that MA encompasses much more than the shallow trappings that have been ascribed to them is something to which we may want to give more credence. _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp ------------------------------ From: "Craig Stovall" Date: Mon, 13 Aug 2001 17:22:06 -0500 Subject: the_dojang: Again...missed the point. Bruce, I think the only thing that's gone unsaid is the fact that you're constantly on here tilting at windmills while the rest of us are trying to have meaningful discussions. I just LOVE this: <> Yeah...and when I ate breakfast this morning I somehow failed to also eat lunch and dinner while I was at it. What's your point? So what if someone broaches a subject and then "fails" to address a million other things. I'm not "pushing" moral development and cooperation to the back when I'm talking about physical/mental/emotional performance issues. I'm just not choosing to address those issues AT THAT TIME. Forgive me for not seeing the big picture, and dragging this list through the intellectual wasteland with my smallminded discussions...I have yet to receive the Buddha mind as you so obviously have. One thing is for sure...you sure don't let a grudge go anytime soon. To my point: <> What do those people have to do with the recent discussion? You gotta get one last jab in over some argument that they've probably forgotten about? It's quite obvious that you didn't read my post. Or if you did, you were too busy using your head to compose a retort to actually get the substance. One more time...for those that missed it. Martial arts are WHAT YOU MAKE IT. Want moral development? Fine...make that the focus of your program. Want tight abs and a rock hard butt? Fine...get to kicking. Want to break boards for cancer research, and help out the community? Cool...I take my hat off to you...now GET TO IT. Whatever, you choose to do...ONE of these things...ALL of these things...NONE of these things...just GET TO IT. And after you choose what it is you're going to pursue...TRY TO DO YOUR BEST. Again...and this is ONLY MY OPINION (whereas others seem to try and tell us the "truth")...it's all about performance. There is no "sum"...there is no "whole"...there are no "parts"...there exists no "tradition"...there are no "styles". Those are just barriers that you've built in your own mind...or more accurately, let someone else build. What is real is what we do...that's life. Of course, some people want to "exist" through their normative fantasy world where it's somehow OK to lecture about morality and character...but only succeed in revealing the REAL truth everytime they open their mouth. That they ain't no better than anybody else. Craig "Mr. Superficial" Stovall _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp ------------------------------ From: Clothahump Date: Mon, 13 Aug 2001 17:50:05 -0500 Subject: the_dojang: Cracks in the training > From: CKCtaekwon@cs.com > Date: Fri, 10 Aug 2001 20:09:56 EDT > Subject: the_dojang: class size > > Ray Terry wrote: > > << 10 students per instructor? I've seldom seen a ratio that low, more like > 20, 30 or 40 to one. But a lower ratio should be better for the student as > well as the instructor. > > Ray Terry >> > > When I had a small school I advertised "low student to teacher ratio". Now > that I have a fairly large school and classes with 20 students at one time i > advertise "high energy, very exciting classes". > > Both systems work, the block method and rank specific method, as long as the > school has a good instructor. I do think the ATA is making a big mistake in > it's new policy. I think they are taking it too far the other way and > allowing cracks to appear in the students training. For example I recently > had a student from an ATA school, camo (green) belt, and she did not know > what a round house kick was.......go figure. > gary pieratt > republicof texas I don't agree about the block system working in the ATA. I'm in the ATA and as long as there is breath in my body, there will never be block teaching in my school. The Songahm style was developed as a pyramid - each rank depends on the previous. If you jump around in the ranks, you wind up with students that have poor technique because they don't have the basics for the technique. I've been seeing a steady decline in the quality of technique at tournaments for the last 3 years now, and that's when ATA started allowing block teaching. It's been just about the biggest mistake they've made in their history, and it is biting us in the hindquarters. ------------------------------ From: Ray Terry Date: Mon, 13 Aug 2001 19:43:42 PDT Subject: the_dojang: . ------------------------------ End of The_Dojang-Digest V8 #479 ******************************** It's a great day for Taekwondo! Support the USTU by joining today. US Taekwondo Union, 1 Olympic Plaza, Ste 104C, Colorado Spgs, CO 80909 719-578-4632 FAX 719-578-4642 ustutkd1@aol.com http://www.ustu.org To unsubscribe from the_dojang-digest send the command: unsubscribe the_dojang-digest -or- unsubscribe the_dojang-digest your.old@address in the BODY (top line, left justified) of a "plain text" e-mail addressed to majordomo@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com. Old digest issues are available via ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com. 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