From: the_dojang-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com To: the_dojang-digest@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Subject: The_Dojang-Digest V8 #498 Reply-To: the_dojang@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Errors-To: the_dojang-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Precedence: The_Dojang-Digest Thur, 23 Aug 2001 Vol 08 : Num 498 In this issue: the_dojang: RE: Submission Fighting the_dojang: Dear Bored and Recovering, the_dojang: RE: Unwanted visitors the_dojang: Re: The_Dojang-Digest V8 #495 the_dojang: Unwanted Visitor the_dojang: Propaganda the_dojang: young founders the_dojang: Loosing little toes the_dojang: Re: Sweaty men rolling around the_dojang: Re: The_Dojang-Digest V8 #497 the_dojang: Broken Toe the_dojang: age the_dojang: . ========================================================================= The_Dojang, serving the Internet since June 1994. ~1000 members strong! Copyright 1994-2001: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource The premier internet discussion forum devoted to the Korean Martial Arts. Replying to this message will NOT unsubscribe you. To unsubscribe, send "unsubscribe the_dojang-digest" (no quotes) in the body (top line, left justified) of a "plain text" e-mail addressed to majordomo@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com. To send e-mail to this list use the_dojang@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com See the Korean Martial Arts (KMA) FAQ and the online search engine for back issues of The_Dojang at http://www.MartialArtsResource.com Pil Seung! ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Craig Stovall" Date: Thu, 23 Aug 2001 09:49:55 -0500 Subject: the_dojang: RE: Submission Fighting Craig wrote, "But the fights I've seen (Not many, grant you) involve fighter one on top of the other, grabbing parts of the other guy, with little movement. Not impressive, IMHO. Of course, since I don't get involved in those type of fights, I might be missing the nuances of the fighters...." No, submission fighting between two highly skilled players is not always the most visually stunning thing to sit and watch. This is expecially true in gi competitions, as this slows down the action even more. No gi tends to be a little more fast and loose. Keep in mind that the "attacker" is seeking to eliminate as much space as possible, and restrict the bottom man's movement as much as possible in order to gain control. This is consistent with the doctrine of gaining positional control/dominance before attempting submission. Of course, the bottom man (defender) is trying his best to remain as "tight" as possible...not exposing his arms and legs to submission attempts while at the same time trying to work a sweep, turnover, or escape (or stall until the end of the match if he's ahead on points). This accounts for an overall lack of gross body movements. Most of the visually pleasing action only takes place during scrambles, throws, takedowns, and transitions. However, once a dominant position is obtained by one player (who knows how to maintain it) then the action typically slows down (unless you can recognize the nuances of what's happening). I'll only offer that the art of submission...whether it be in the form of Judo, BJJ, Shooto, Catch, etc...has to be felt in order to be appreciated. Most of the details that make it work go unnoticed by the unititiated eye. Craig Stovall _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp ------------------------------ From: "Craig Stovall" Date: Thu, 23 Aug 2001 09:59:24 -0500 Subject: the_dojang: Dear Bored and Recovering, Jennifer, In regards to your experiment in creating a cane form...I don't have any technical advice, but I will offer a word of encouragment. Have fun...call it whatever you want because it's YOUR creation...and don't sweat the player haters. Good luck in your search. Craig "White Guy Trying Out His Urban Lingo" Stovall _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp ------------------------------ From: Meteor2000@aol.com Date: Thu, 23 Aug 2001 11:23:53 EDT Subject: the_dojang: RE: Unwanted visitors <<> Anybody else want to share stories about some of the assorted creeps that have graced their doorways? >> Reading these stories just shows how naive some people are. Those high on drugs and totally drunk have their thinking impaired and sometimes these individuals think they can do anything while under the influence. They are not intimidated by any Black Belt or Master to believe so is false confidence. Your martial arts skills may and should save you but the situation can go from simple to deadly in the blink of an eye. I would recommend you visit the Warrior Scholar page and read what someone posted << Unruly Visitors AL 03 Jul 2001 >> and follow the string reading the posts to the last one Re: Unruly Visitors Officer Safety Tips 04 Jul 2001. Most importantly read the part about the Instructor who ran off some trouble makers intent on harassing his Martial Arts class only to have them come back and shoot into the class killing Jerry French an outstanding Tang Soo Do Black Belt and former middle weight kickboxing champion. http://www.warrior-scholar.com/web_pages/mainframes.htm Message Boards then to Discussion Board look for the string "Unruly Visitors AL 03 Jul 2001" Another good reference on this subject is the interview of A. Loo "The Need For Taekwondo" on page 25 in the fall 1984 issue of Traditional Taekwondo magazine. ------------------------------ From: Creed71963@aol.com Date: Thu, 23 Aug 2001 11:56:57 EDT Subject: the_dojang: Re: The_Dojang-Digest V8 #495 << In a message dated 8/22/01 6:32:43 PM Eastern Daylight Time, the_dojang-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com writes: << BTW, I always love hearing these types of stories. Anybody else want to share stories about some of the assorted creeps that have graced their doorways?>> I can remember one time a new student tried cold cocking the head instructor during class. Needless to say, it wasn't the instructor who was on the floor in pain.... Craig ------------------------------ From: "Prince Loeffler" Date: Thu, 23 Aug 2001 08:57:38 -0700 Subject: the_dojang: Unwanted Visitor Here's one: While teaching the beginners class, A man walked in and sat down to observe the class, One of the staff came forward and offered to assist him and he was turned away by the visitor. Although it never really bothered us with other people from many different schools coming down to watch. We had people from many places training with us.. However, on this particular night. This "gentleman" decided to started telling my beginners students that their technique really sucks on the sideline ( He said that loud).. all I did was stared at him and laugh. I took this situation as an opportunity to educated my students in regards to handling distractions. However, This "gentleman" decided that he will not be ignored, so he kept on going and going and going critizising loudly as my students went on about their business. Finally, I asked one of my assistant to take over the class, so that I could introduce myself to him. This person reeked of alcohol and smelled so bad that I was thankful that all that sanchin breathing exercise is finally put into good use. I asked him to please tone down a bit because tha class is in session and he seem to obey at first. I told him that he is welcome to watch the class. As I return to my class, 5 minutes later he took of his shoes ( Not bad for someone who is drunk and still able to show courtesy) and stepped on the mat and started challenging my students to a fight.. I finally decided to stop the class and decided to tell him to leave. Instead, this person got so angry and of all people that he decided to challenge to Chief Instructor ( A 9th Degree, 60 year old powerhouse Blackbelt) to a fight. Well, my instructor has been watching all the commotion and had already called the Police department. He was watching me ( according to him) to see how I could handle this situation. When the cops arrived, they were laughing so hard. According to them when they recieved the call from a karate dojo about a drunk guy challenging everyone to a fight they thought they should bring an ambulance along. Oh, by the way..We still have the guys shoes ! ------------------------------ From: "Rudy Timmerman" Date: Thu, 23 Aug 2001 00:26:05 -0400 Subject: the_dojang: Propaganda Robert wrote: > These kids train full time. Most of them are in their late teens or early > 20's. They are out of school and Taekwon-Do is what they do. The government > "pays" them for training. Hello Robert. This sort of training for propaganda was a model for many "iron curtain" countries in the past. Given the fact that these athletes come from a country with similar background, it does not surprise me to see they have gone the same route. This system has produced some of the greatest athletes in the world; but, in the long run, it has done little for the countries that used it. Most of these former "superstar" athletes have now moved to the US or other countries for lucrative coaching positions. You'd think the NK would have learned something from this. Rudy ------------------------------ From: "Master Frank Clay" Date: Thu, 23 Aug 2001 12:35:51 -0400 Subject: the_dojang: young founders Ray, While this is true they were in their teens... there are a couple of differences.. 1) These Koreans founded Korean arts.. not Chinese or American ones. 2) These Koreans also had significant training, for the most part, and having met this individual he has not had any significant training except from some Choy Lay Fut videos. Oh, and a first dan from Fred Villari. 3) Koreans typically have a geneology of sorts... this individuals claims, i love this one, that the art was taught to him by his father, who is convienently deceased, yet he claims to be founder. 4) I helped someone move out of his apartment, as it was an abusive relationship (mentslly) and found his certificates... they had been printed on a desk jet, taken to kinko's and the original name had been changed... Based on these actions, I really do not think it is fair to put the actual founders of KMA in the same category as this type of money hungry grub. ------------------------------ From: "Dunn, Danny J RASA" Date: Thu, 23 Aug 2001 11:53:06 -0500 Subject: the_dojang: Loosing little toes <<<<> <>>>>>> Guys, Don't hold your breath. It doesn't work that fast. Danny Dunn ------------------------------ From: Garrison Date: Thu, 23 Aug 2001 12:20:33 -0500 Subject: the_dojang: Re: Sweaty men rolling around On Thu, 23 Aug 2001 the_dojang-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com wrote: > From: Creed71963@aol.com > Date: Thu, 23 Aug 2001 09:13:19 EDT > Subject: the_dojang: Re: The_Dojang-Digest V8 #495 > > In a message dated 08/22/2001 9:25:15 PM EST, Creed71963 writes: > > << In a message dated 8/22/01 6:32:43 PM Eastern Daylight Time, > the_dojang-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com writes: > > << The "other" Craig wrote, > > "I can stand to be corrected, as the few submission fights > I've seen might interest adventurous romantic couples more then MAs....." > > Lemme guess...the guard, north & south, and rear mount positions are > conjuring up unwholesome thoughts in your mind. Please, sir...seek > professional help before it's too late. > > Just kidding...just kidding!!! > > ;) > >> > > As for seeking help, well, it's bee years too late for that...... ^_^ > > But the fights I've seen (Not many, grant you) involve fighter one on top of > the other, grabbing parts of the other guy, with little movement. Not > impressive, IMHO. Maybe I should start reading the Kama Sutra and convince a > lovely young lady that these postions are really Self defense....^_^ > > (Of course, any lovely young lady would probably clean my clock but good > were I to make such a suggestion to them [and I've had lovely young ladies > whomp on me before -- sparring, not on the street. I'm not really a drooling > pervert....^_^] Afterwards, their Husband/Boyfriends would finish the job, so > I'd better shut up now.....) > > Of course, since I don't get involved in those type of fights, I might be > missing the nuances of the fighters.... > > Craig >> I recently went to one of those local "toughman" competitions because a couple of people I train with sometimes were doing some NHB style demonstration matches. It was interesting to see how the crowd reacted. They were fine with the stand up stuff, but the minute the match went to the ground, the booing commenced. I think the nuance comment was right- most people have a pretty good idea of how a stand up fight works, as two people try to wallop each other with their limbs. It's usually easy to see how the fight is going. With grappling, most people don't know what the positions of advantage are, what moves are being tried etc., so its just a couple of people rolling around on the ground, in compromising positions. I was doing color commentary on the matches to my fiancee, who isn't in MA, and she thought it was kinda interesting. Most of the crowd obviously thought it was boring, and wanted to go back to the real fighting- people punching each other in the head. - ---------------------------- "Reading maketh an evil man" Garrison ------------------------------ From: Richard Zaruba Date: Thu, 23 Aug 2001 12:21:03 -0500 Subject: the_dojang: Re: The_Dojang-Digest V8 #497 On 8/23/01 9:50 AM, "the_dojang-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com" wrote: > From: "Lasich, Mark D." > Date: Thu, 23 Aug 2001 07:53:26 -0400 > Subject: the_dojang: RE: Unwanted visitors > > While I try not to fall into the "unwanted" category, I am often an > "uninvited" visitor. The passions for the arts are often too much for me, > that I just HAVE to stop by and watch if I am in the area of a school - any > school! > > While I am not disruptive, and do not offer any comparisons or comments on > techniques, teaching style, etc., I am sure someone, sometime has at least > once thought, "Is THAT guy here AGAIN?" > > In the spirit, > Mark > mark.lasich@alcoa.com I've had a number of visitors like you who were in the area for a couple days and just wanted to stop in and watch. They are more than welcome to come in and watch. We have also had visitors in the area that come in and participate in class for the time they are here. They are also more than welcome. We have an open door policy to all classes with the exception of advanced class and sparring/weapons class. Those I try to reduce the distractions present. Rich ____________________________________________________________________________ Richard Zaruba University of North Dakota School of Medicine and Health Sciences Department of Anatomy and Cell Biology 501 North Columbia Road P.O. Box 9037 Grand Forks, ND 58202-9037 Off: (701) 777-3952 Lab: (701) 777-2576 Fax: (701) 777-2477 ------------------------------ From: "Patrick L" Date: Thu, 23 Aug 2001 14:41:03 -0700 Subject: the_dojang: Broken Toe Dear Mr. Stovall, >Please tell me this doesn't warrant a trip to a doctor...< I am no doctor, but I would be concerned by the lack of pain! Getting in the WAY, Patrick _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp ------------------------------ From: Ray Terry Date: Thu, 23 Aug 2001 15:47:57 PDT Subject: the_dojang: age > Based on these actions, I really do not think it is fair to put the actual > founders of KMA in the same category as this type of money hungry grub. I was not trying to put anyone in any category. Just making a point about age. And this coming from an old fart... :) Ray Terry raymail@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com ------------------------------ From: Ray Terry Date: Thu, 23 Aug 2001 15:48:42 PDT Subject: the_dojang: . ------------------------------ End of The_Dojang-Digest V8 #498 ******************************** It's a great day for Taekwondo! Support the USTU by joining today. US Taekwondo Union, 1 Olympic Plaza, Ste 104C, Colorado Spgs, CO 80909 719-578-4632 FAX 719-578-4642 ustutkd1@aol.com http://www.ustu.org To unsubscribe from the_dojang-digest send the command: unsubscribe the_dojang-digest -or- unsubscribe the_dojang-digest your.old@address in the BODY (top line, left justified) of a "plain text" e-mail addressed to majordomo@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com. Old digest issues are available via ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com. Copyright 1994-2001: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource Standard disclaimers apply.